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Quote (katjo @ Nov. 14 2009,14:24) GEORGE!! You quotted Acts 2;36 Therefore let all the house of Lsreal know assuredly, That God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Than you say;” You see what it says, God has made that same Jesus, God made him. THAT IS NOT SAYING GOD MADE HIM(liked formed Him) AT ALL!! it literally is saying He gave Him position of Lord. There you go Georg. God is a title. Jesus is called our Lord God! right?
KatjoJesus never forced any one to believe him, otherwise he would have stopped them from killing him; so you are free to believe whatever you like, you're not hurting my feelings.
Georg
Is he the Yahweh of Israel? NO!
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Is he 'Elohim of Israel? YES!
1) He is Divine ['Elohim] in His nature now.
2) He is Judge ['Elohim] Of Israel now.
3) He is Mighty ['Elohim] over Israel.
4) He is the Messenger ['Elohim/angelic] now.
5) He is the Ruler ['Elohim] now.Quote (rancherforChrist @ Nov. 12 2009,11:14) Quote (georg @ Nov. 11 2009,15:40) Quote (rancherforChrist @ Nov. 12 2009,09:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 15 2009,22:20) Quote Where did you find these odd ideas?
In church.My daughter attends a Baptist church on Wednesday nights (their AWANA group for kids). They are currently teaching on the Trinity. It makes absolutely no sense to my daughter!! I am remaining quiet. I'm listening and observing her. She is frustrated with head in hand as she tries to do the lesson. She comes to me many times asking such things as, “Isn't a Dad supposed to be older than the kid?”. Yup. And, “How can Jesus be God when the bible says that the Father is God. If the Father is God, than Jesus is the Son – they are two people…..”. It just goes on and on.
Where do people get these ideas? Indoctrination.
I'm explaining to my daughter about the seed and fruit. It is possible to spit out the seed and enjoy the fruit. Now she's not so stressed about understanding something that makes no sense to her mind.
Hello Mandy,I could say that I am surprised at some of the responses to your post, but the truth is, I'm not. I have to admit that some of the responses are disturbing, considering that you are dealing with your child. Mandy, I would like to ask a question first, and then depending on your answer, I might better know how best to respond. Here's the question.
Do you love Jesus?
I'll wait for your answer.
thanks
Nobody is responding to Mandy's Post, rather we are responding to FOJ post in the beginning of this tread. So don't jump to conclusions. We all Love Jesus. That is not a good question. What you should tell us, if you believe in a trinity or not.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,Some actually did specifically respond to what Mandy said, and I was not jumping to any conclusions, and I was responding specifically to what Mandy had posted. It kinda seems like you jumped to a conclusion when you said that we all love Jesus. When you said we, it seems that you became the spokesperson for everyone here on the forum, and that seems like a really a really false conclusion. I also didn't ask that question of anyone except Mandy, though I'm very glad if you love Jesus too. Then you said that's not a good question. Since it is the greatest commandment to love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul and mind, I can't even imagine how that could not be the best question to ask anyone. As for what I should tell you, I don't mean offense, but it seems to me that what I choose to share with others is my choice and not anyone else's.
Irene, I really don't mean any of what I said to be abrasive, but you just introduced yourself by making demands about my life and my choices. Maybe we could start over.
Hi,
My name is Chris and I love Jesus with all my heart. I also love the brethren. It's very nice to meet you.
Love ya,
Chris
We my Husband and I, is that to your liking>
Peace and Love IreneQuote (georg @ Nov. 14 2009,06:34) Hi, My name is Chris and I love Jesus with all my heart. I also love the brethren. It's very nice to meet you.
Love ya,
Chris[/quote]
We my Husband and I, is that to your liking>
Peace and Love Irene
Thanks Irene,It's certainly more courteous. I love Jesus with all my heart. I'm not sure about soul and mind, but I'm still working on that and God is still working on me. I also love people and I love to minister to their needs, whatever needs they have. I resigned from my job in Kansas City about 4 years ago because that's what the Lord told me to do. I have been doing full time mission work around the country every since, to help the needy and homeless however the Lord leads me.
How about you and your husband? What is the Lord doing in and through you?
Nice to meet you Irene.
Love ya,
ChrisQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,00:07) Hi RFC,
Is Jesus the God of israel?
Hi Nick,Is Jesus the God of creation?
Quote (katjo @ Nov. 14 2009,14:24) GEORGE!! You quotted Acts 2;36 Therefore let all the house of Lsreal know assuredly, That God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Than you say;” You see what it says, God has made that same Jesus, God made him. THAT IS NOT SAYING GOD MADE HIM(liked formed Him) AT ALL!! it literally is saying He gave Him position of Lord. There you go Georg. God is a title. Jesus is called our Lord God! right?
katjoYou're right, I answered this one to quick; I give you this one.
Georg
Quote (rancherforChrist @ Nov. 15 2009,03:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,00:07) Hi RFC,
Is Jesus the God of israel?
Hi Nick,Is Jesus the God of creation?
I might as well answer that while I'm on here.NO, he is not the God of creation, neither is he the God of Israel, but God created all things “through” him.
Georg
Quote (rancherforChrist @ Nov. 15 2009,03:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,00:07) Hi RFC,
Is Jesus the God of israel?
Hi Nick,Is Jesus the God of creation?
Hi RFC,
Is Jesus Christ the God of Israel?
If not are you teaching us about another god?Quote (georg @ Nov. 14 2009,09:47) Quote (rancherforChrist @ Nov. 15 2009,03:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,00:07) Hi RFC,
Is Jesus the God of israel?
Hi Nick,Is Jesus the God of creation?
I might as well answer that while I'm on here.NO, he is not the God of creation, neither is he the God of Israel, but God created all things “through” him.
Georg
Thanks Irene,I appreciate your answer cuz I was already pretty sure Nick wasn't gonna answer it. I don't agree with you, but I'm still grateful for your answer.
Love ya,
ChrisHi RFC,
If Jesus is not the God of Israel did he come to tell us of another god, himself?
How many gods do you have?Quote (rancherforChrist @ Nov. 15 2009,03:50) Quote (georg @ Nov. 14 2009,06:34) Hi, My name is Chris and I love Jesus with all my heart. I also love the brethren. It's very nice to meet you.
Love ya,
Chris
We my Husband and I, is that to your liking>
Peace and Love Irene[/quote]
Thanks Irene,It's certainly more courteous. I love Jesus with all my heart. I'm not sure about soul and mind, but I'm still working on that and God is still working on me. I also love people and I love to minister to their needs, whatever needs they have. I resigned from my job in Kansas City about 4 years ago because that's what the Lord told me to do. I have been doing full time mission work around the country every since, to help the needy and homeless however the Lord leads me.
How about you and your husband? What is the Lord doing in and through you?
Nice to meet you Irene.
Love ya,
Chris
Hi! What you are doing is good, looks like you are not married to be able to do all of the things you do. My husband and I are retired from our Bakery Business.
My Husband is 72 years old and I am 71.
We belonged to the W.W.Church of God for 10 years. Until then we were born into the Catholic Church were I was very active and did Solo and was a Song Leader. I also started a Women's Organization, and a Rosary Society. After joining the ,W.C.G. for the first time in our Lives read the Bible and got Baptized according to Scripture in 1985. I joined the Choir and love to sing and praise God.
In 1994 the Church broke up and they went back to believing in the trinity which was one doctrine that we did not believe.
Now we have stayed Home. God has been good to us. He has revealed more truths to us. We have 4 Children and 7 Grandchildren, which keep us busy now a days.
Thanks for asking.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (rancherforChrist @ Nov. 15 2009,07:55) Quote (georg @ Nov. 14 2009,09:47) Quote (rancherforChrist @ Nov. 15 2009,03:52) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,00:07) Hi RFC,
Is Jesus the God of israel?
Hi Nick,Is Jesus the God of creation?
I might as well answer that while I'm on here.NO, he is not the God of creation, neither is he the God of Israel, but God created all things “through” him.
Georg
Thanks Irene,I appreciate your answer cuz I was already pretty sure Nick wasn't gonna answer it. I don't agree with you, but I'm still grateful for your answer.
Love ya,
Chris
That was my Husband who answered you, please watch the signature. That is going to happen a lot since Georg and I share the same Computer. Tell me why you don't agree with His answer.
IreneSome Commentary- Revelation 3:14
“. . . These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
Problem:
This passage is usually quoted with Colossians 1 by people who try to prove that Christ was the first of God's creation, and that all subsequent creation (e.g., trees and animals of Genesis 1) is the work of Christ. Therefore, it is argued, Christ existed before his birth in the days of Herod the King.
Solution:
Christ is the “Alpha and Omega” (Rev. 1:11) of God's creation. This creation is not the creation of trees and animals as recorded in Genesis 1, but rather the “creation” of new men and women. “Create” and “creation” are frequently used in this regenerative sense in the New Testament. See, for example, the following: Eph. 2:10, 15 cf. 4:23, 24; Col. 3:9, 10 R.S.V.; Gal. 6:15; James 1:18; 2 Cor. 5:17.Revelation 3:14 refers to this new creation and not to the creation of Genesis 1. This is indicated by the context:
“. . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.” (Rev. 3:11).
“Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God . . . and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem . . . and I will write upon him my new name.” (vs. 12).
“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne . . .” (vs. 21).
The “making”, “writing” and “granting” refer to the “new” Jerusalem and the new name – the ultimate regeneration of believers, and not to the creative acts on the earth of Genesis 1.Jesus is the “beginning” of this new creation – the first to live, die and to receive life for evermore. (Rev. 1:18). As Paul puts it: “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” (Col. 1:18). Christ is the “first and the last”, the “Alpha and Omega” (Rev. 1:11)1 of this new creation.
A further proof, (but more lengthy to develop) that “the beginning of the creation of God” refers to Christ as “the firstborn from the dead” and not as the creator of the universe, can be deduced by noting that Rev. 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen” is a commentary on Rev. 3:14. If this can be shown then clearly Rev. 3:14 refers to the creation which commenced with Christ's death and resurrection. The proof rests in a comparison of the introductory statements about Jesus which begin each of the letters to the seven ecclesias with the description of Jesus in the first chapter. Consider the following:
To Ephesus – “These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks.” (Rev. 2:1). Cf. Rev. 1:20.
To Smyrna – “These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive.” (Rev. 2:8). Cf. Rev. 1:11, 18.
To Pergamos – “These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges.” (Rev. 2:12). Cf. Rev. 1:16.
To Thyatira – “These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass.” (Rev. 2:18). Cf. Rev. 1:14, 15.
To Sardis – “These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars . . .” (Rev. 3:1). Cf. Rev. 1:4.
To Philadelphia – “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” (Rev. 3:7). Cf. Rev. 1:18.
Therefore,
To Laodicea – “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” (Rev. 3:14) Cf. “I am he that liveth and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” (Rev. 1:18). Clearly, “the beginning of the creation of God” = “I am he that liveth and was dead.” (i.e., “the firstborn from the dead”.) (Col. 1:18).
——————————————————————————–
Footnotes:
The Alpha and Omega of Rev. 1:8 is the Father – the Almighty. Cf. Rev. 1:4, 5 where the distinction is made between “God” and “Jesus”. Notice too, the similarity between the language of vs. 4 and vs. 8.katjo
Please read–Colossians1:15 in the Commentary says: the first born of every creature. This expresses Christ deity and sovereignty in relation to creation. Christ was the first born,not the first created. First born signifies priority in time. First, this speaks of His preexistence, what He was from eternity. He was before all creation. Thirdly, this also speaks of being recognized as the Messiah(Ps 89:27) so we have here declared the eternity, the sovereignty, and the lordship of Christ. (16) For by Him were all things created. Three positions tell the story(1) In Him, sovereign source,(2) by him, divine agent,(3) unto him, for His use and for His glory. (17) And He is before all things -Christ existed prior to all creation. He is the great :”I am”(Jn 8:58)The Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the new Testament. Than if you go to John 8:58 it says; The joy of Abraham refers to the birth of Issac. Abraham saw in Issac the hope of man kind and the promise of a Messiah. He saw the promise afar off (Heb 11;13) Limited to physical understanding, the jews could not comprehend how Christ saw Abraham. Christ now makes the strongest statement of this entire dialogue. Before Abraham existed I am. CHRIST WAS FROM ETERNITY AND WAS THE GREAT “I AM” (Ex 3;14)
Hi KAT,
You offer Jesus as a new god while the God of Israel he came to tell us about is still the one true God.Quote (katjo @ Nov. 16 2009,05:17) Please read–Colossians1:15 in the Commentary says: the first born of every creature. This expresses Christ deity and sovereignty in relation to creation. Christ was the first born,not the first created. First born signifies priority in time. First, this speaks of His preexistence, what He was from eternity. He was before all creation. Thirdly, this also speaks of being recognized as the Messiah(Ps 89:27) so we have here declared the eternity, the sovereignty, and the lordship of Christ. (16) For by Him were all things created. Three positions tell the story(1) In Him, sovereign source,(2) by him, divine agent,(3) unto him, for His use and for His glory. (17) And He is before all things -Christ existed prior to all creation. He is the great :”I am”(Jn 8:58)The Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the new Testament. Than if you go to John 8:58 it says; The joy of Abraham refers to the birth of Issac. Abraham saw in Issac the hope of man kind and the promise of a Messiah. He saw the promise afar off (Heb 11;13) Limited to physical understanding, the jews could not comprehend how Christ saw Abraham. Christ now makes the strongest statement of this entire dialogue. Before Abraham existed I am. CHRIST WAS FROM ETERNITY AND WAS THE GREAT “I AM” (Ex 3;14)
But Jesus had a beginning and did not always existed, like you claim. Only the Father had eternity, and always existed. Jesus was begotten of the Father. When it says firstborn it means firstborn and not from eternity. He was before all were created.
IreneQuote (georg @ Nov. 14 2009,15:26) NO, he is not the God of creation, neither is he the God of Israel, but God created all things “through” him. Georg[/quote]
Thanks Irene,I appreciate your answer cuz I was already pretty sure Nick wasn't gonna answer it. I don't agree with you, but I'm still grateful for your answer.
Love ya,
Chris[/quote]
That was my Husband who answered you, please watch the signature. That is going to happen a lot since Georg and I share the same Computer. Tell me why you don't agree with His answer.
Irene
Hi Irene,I'm sorry that I didn't realize your husband George had signed that post. Thanks for making me aware of that. I do usually read the signature, but I missed it that time. I appreciate that George was willing to answer that question directly and honestly. George spoke what he believes. That's why I didn't say that he is wrong, I simply said that I don't agree with him.
I do believe that Jesus is the God of creation, and I believe that because of much evidence in the bible supporting what I believe, and because of the things the Lord has spoken to me directly. I understand that one can find evidence of the opposite in the bible as well, that's why I don't base my beliefs solely on scripture. God the Father has a voice and Jesus has a voice. Even the scripture says that specifically. To read the scriptures without interaction and communication with God, is like trying to rightly divide a spiritual message without the Spirit. In and of ourselves, we cannot rightly divide God's word.
Though it may not be to others, the scriptures openly show that all things were created by Jesus, the Son of God. The scriptures surrounding verse 16 make it clear that God is speaking about His Son Jesus when He says:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Colossians 1:12-18
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[c] the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.This scripture of course is just one piece among so much evidence. Jesus Himself taught that fig tree cannot produce or bring forth fruit other than it's own kind, “figs”. Likewise, how can God the Father produce or bring forth something other than God. Sure, God can create beings, plants, animals and etc. that are not God, but He did not create His Son.
Obviously there are many here that don't agree with me, and that's ok. It's not my job to define what they believe, and neither is it their job to define what I believe. I lift all things up to the Lord and let Him explain and give me understanding of the Truth.
Thanks for asking Irene. Thanks for starting over with me.
Love ya,
ChrisAmen! Rancherforchrist!
Oh by the way Irene, I don't hold to the trinity doctrine as such. I know what the Catholics, the Baptists and others believe. I was raised as a Baptist preachers kid. Do I believe what they believe concerning the trinity doctrine and some other issues? No. There are a whole lot of things that don't look at all the way we have perceived them for years.
Love ya,
Chris
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