Jesus Christ is God

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
The rock is also the teachings of Christ
Matthew 7:24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock
Luke 6:48
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
as is Jesus
Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Starting to get the picture?
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy
Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And confirmed in 1 Peter.1
” 9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. “

The rock is the Spirit of Christ in 1 Cor 10

[Cult Buster]

NH  

Quote

Hi CB, The rock is also the teachings of Christ Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matthew 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock

Build the house (church) upon Christ the spiritual Rock.

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
Indeed he is the cornerstone of the house of God, but for many also a stumbling stone.
But to drink of Christ is to have our thirst quenched by the Spirit.[Jn 7.38]

[Cult Buster]

It says that if anyone comes to Christ He will send to them The Holy Ghost.

Joh 7:37  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Joh 7:39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[NickHassan]

Hi Cb,
Ask and you will receive.
Lk 11
“9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”

[Cult Buster]

NH

Quote

Starting to get the picture? The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy Revelation 19:10

No! It says that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy.

Rev 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

We must stick to what the Bible says.

John:
Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

To see who gets this understanding of prophecy in the last days. See.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Those that keep God's commandments get the prophetic gift.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
The command of God is that men listen to His Son and be reborn of water and the Spirit. The Wisdom of God is by the Spirit revealed in Christ and thus his teachings are that rock.

[Cult Buster]

                            And that Rock was Christ (Jehovah).

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Deu 32:3  Because I will publish the name of the LORD (Jehovah): ascribe ye greatness unto our God (Elohiym).
Deu 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD (Jehovah): for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God(Elohiym).
Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
The Lord is the Spirit.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 19 2007,04:59)

Hi CB, The command of God is that men listen to His Son and be reborn of water and the Spirit. The Wisdom of God is by the Spirit revealed in Christ and thus his teachings are that rock.

I don't think that's a plausible explanation, the context of the 1 Cor 4 statement was the 40 year wilderness experience of the Jews, vs 1 makes this plain.

1Co 10:1  Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

Furthermore, the imperfect verb “ane” is used, showing that the “spiritual Rock that followed them” was past tense….

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Interesting to compare Paul's sentiments to Psalmist's in Psa 78:34-41:

34When He killed them, then they sought Him, And returned and searched diligently for God;  
35And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.
36But they deceived Him with their mouth And lied to Him with their tongue.
37For their heart was not steadfast toward Him, Nor were they faithful in His covenant.
38But He, being compassionate, forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them; And often He restrained His anger And did not arouse all His wrath.
39Thus He remembered that they were but flesh, A wind that passes and does not return.
40How often they rebelled against Him in the wilderness And grieved Him in the desert! 41Again and again they tempted God, And pained the Holy One of Israel.

Thanks CB….it's a great point you raised.

[Adam Pastor]

Hi Is 1:18, you missed my reply on page 46 …

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 16 2007,07:26)

… The NT writers frequently used ‘kurios’ in reference to the Father and ‘theos’ in reference to Jesus. Luke, for instance, showed a remarkable ambiguity in the use of this term relative to Jesus and the Father (e.g. The Father – Luke 1:15, 16, 32, 46; 2:22…The Son – 2:11, 5:8, 5:12, 6:5, 6:46, 7:6, 7:13, 7:19, 9:54, 9:59, 9:61…). If 1 Cor 8:6 proves that The Father is “God” in an exclusive sense then it then by that logic it would also prove that the Son is “Lord” in an exclusive sense. What then would we make of a passage like this: Mark 12:29 28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD (Kurios) OUR GOD IS ONE LORD (kurios); 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD (kurios) YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' Hmmmm….

Read on in Mark 12 …

After Jesus quotes Deut 6:4-5 (The Shema) affirming his strict Jewish monotheistic belief that there is solely ONE GOD;
he then quotes Psalms 110:1 to show in what sense he (that is Jesus) is Lord/kurios!

Remember, since the NT is written in Greek, the word 'kurios' has different meanings depending on the context; it is used to denote a variety of Hebrew words.

Obviously, in examples such as the quotation of Deut 6:4-5, kurios is being used for the Hebrew word denoting GOD's name, the Tetragrammaton, i.e. YHWH;
depicted in our English Bibles as capital 'LORD'.
GOD's name occurs over 6700 times in the OT, however when a OT verse containing GOD's name is quoted in the NT, kurios is used.

In like manner, GOD's title, Adonai; when a OT verse using this Hebrew word is quoted in the NT, again, kurios is used.

Then we have the common Hebrew words used to denote lords, masters and owners, i.e. adon & adoni
(Incidentally, the Hebrew word adoni is never used in ref. to deity; it is solely used to denote human lords and sometimes angels)

Psalms 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT.
Here we have the ONE GOD, YaHWeH, prophetically inviting a human lord to sit at His right hand
(The Hebrew word adoni is used for the second occurrence of the word 'lord' in this verse!)

So, the LORD GOD invites David's lord/adoni to sit at His right hand!

Thus, after Jesus quotes Deut 6:4 in Mark 12:28-29, he continues …

(Mark 12:35-37)  And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my lord , Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord [adoni]; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Jesus had earlier affirmed that there is solely one GOD, YAHWEH. That there is Solely one being/person who is Almighty GOD!
Jesus was no trinitarian, and the scribe obviously did not have a trinitarian understanding either. (See v.32)

Therefore, what Jesus then does, is identify himself from Scripture, as the lord who would one day sit at the right hand of the ONE GOD.
He identifies himself as David's lord, David's adoni.

Again, because the NT is written in Greek, the same Greek word, kurios, is used. However, the context should determine in what sense the word kurios is being used i.e. in this case speaking of the human Lord Messiah.

In like manner, the Greek word kurios, is used for 'lord, master, Sir' etc
Even Pilate is called kurios! So, is Pilate, the LORD GOD???
Of course note, the context determines that kurios is being used to denote Pilate being called 'Sir' as a human lord

Again, the Jewish people (even the common people) understood that adoni is never used in ref. to deity.

Psalms 110.1 is used by both Christ and his disciples to identify who Jesus really is!

On the Day of Pentecost, Peter used it to identify Christ.
I have just quoted where Jesus uses this verse to identify himself.

Yes … Jesus is the one man, the one person, whom the LORD GOD, YAHWEH,
has made both Lord and Christ! [Acts 2.36]

Hence Jesus is the Lord Messiah! [Luke 2.11, Col 3.24]
GOD has made him 'Lord of all' to GOD's glory [Phil 2.11]
It is obvious that in spite of this exaltation Jesus is still subject to GOD, Jesus is not Lord over GOD!
[1 Cor 15.27]

So we have solely ONE GOD, YHWH, the Father
[1 Cor 8.4,6; Mark 12:29, Deut 6.4]
And there is solely one person who has been made Lord of all [Acts 10.36];
hence we have one Lord, namely Jesus the Messiah [1 Cor 8.6]

ONE GOD, YHWH, the Father
ONE Lord, GOD's Son, the man Messiah Jesus! [1 Tim 2.5]

Hence …
(1 Cor 8:5-6)  For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us [THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH]
there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

See also

http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49

http://www.scatteredsheep.com/lord-lord-lord.htm

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Moses struck the rock to produce life giving water.
That rock that he struck did not follow him through the desert.
Moses struck the Rock of God and God responded by supplying the life giving Spirit of wisdom and prophecy that followed them through the desert.
God's Spirit is the Spirit of Christ and inspired the prophets and the men of old.
We still can and must come to Christ for the waters of eternal life

[Cult Buster]

JESUS' EQUALITY WITH GOD

Compare
MATTHEW 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and {their} ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with {their} eyes, and hear with {their} ears, and should understand with {their} heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
With
ISAIAH 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.

Compare
JEREMIAH 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.
With
MATTHEW 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, {thou} that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under {her} wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Compare
JOHN 12:37-38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: (38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
JOHN 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
With
ISAIAH 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (2) Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (3) And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, {is} the Lord of hosts: the whole earth {is} full of his glory. (4) And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) Then said I, Woe {is} me! for I am undone; because I {am} a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.<<<

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

ROMANS 9:5 Whose {are} the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ {came}, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {RSV, NIV: “Christ, who is God over all”}

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
TITUS 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; {RSV,NIV: “our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}

Compare
Psa 45:6  Thy throne, O God  , is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
With
Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: {RSV, NIV: “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}

Compare
Psa 102:24  I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25  Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
With
HEBREWS 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: {God the Father calls the Son “Lord.”

REVELATION 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Arche (“Beginning”) The Greek for “beginning” is arche, from which we get our word “architect.” Its literal meaning, according to Greek scholars, is “origin, active cause, source, uncreated principle.” So the above verse is describing Jesus as the “architect,” or Creator of the Universe. In Rev 21:6 “arche” is applied to the Father, so it can't possibly mean “created being,” as Jehovah's Witnesses and other heretics maintain.

Compare
Psa 41:13  Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

REVELATION 5:8 . . . the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Compare
REVELATION 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

With
Gen 17:1  And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:

With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

Compare
JEREMIAH 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
With
MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three
are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Compare
DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
With
LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon {God}, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Mat 26:63  But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65  Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;

(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.

Compare
Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With
Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch(Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Compare
Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

With
Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3  Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exo 20:2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)

Isa 42:20  Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Jan. 19 2007,14:14)

Hi Is 1:18, you missed my reply on page 46 … Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 16 2007,07:26) … The NT writers frequently used ‘kurios’ in reference to the Father and ‘theos’ in reference to Jesus. Luke, for instance, showed a remarkable ambiguity in the use of this term relative to Jesus and the Father (e.g. The Father – Luke 1:15, 16, 32, 46; 2:22…The Son – 2:11, 5:8, 5:12, 6:5, 6:46, 7:6, 7:13, 7:19, 9:54, 9:59, 9:61…). If 1 Cor 8:6 proves that The Father is “God” in an exclusive sense then it then by that logic it would also prove that the Son is “Lord” in an exclusive sense. What then would we make of a passage like this: Mark 12:29 28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD (Kurios) OUR GOD IS ONE LORD (kurios); 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD (kurios) YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' Hmmmm…. Read on in Mark 12 … After Jesus quotes Deut 6:4-5 (The Shema) affirming his strict Jewish monotheistic belief that there is solely ONE GOD; he then quotes Psalms 110:1 to show in what sense he (that is Jesus) is Lord/kurios! Remember, since the NT is written in Greek, the word 'kurios' has different meanings depending on the context; it is used to denote a variety of Hebrew words. Obviously, in examples such as the quotation of Deut 6:4-5, kurios is being used for the Hebrew word denoting GOD's name, the Tetragrammaton, i.e. YHWH; depicted in our English Bibles as capital 'LORD'. GOD's name occurs over 6700 times in the OT, however when a OT verse containing GOD's name is quoted in the NT, kurios is used. In like manner, GOD's title, Adonai; when a OT verse using this Hebrew word is quoted in the NT, again, kurios is used. Then we have the common Hebrew words used to denote lords, masters and owners, i.e. adon & adoni (Incidentally, the Hebrew word adoni is never used in ref. to deity; it is solely used to denote human lords and sometimes angels) Psalms 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT. Here we have the ONE GOD, YaHWeH, prophetically inviting a human lord to sit at His right hand (The Hebrew word adoni is used for the second occurrence of the word 'lord' in this verse!) So, the LORD GOD invites David's lord/adoni to sit at His right hand! Thus, after Jesus quotes Deut 6:4 in Mark 12:28-29, he continues … (Mark 12:35-37)  And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my lord , Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord [adoni]; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. Jesus had earlier affirmed that there is solely one GOD, YAHWEH. That there is Solely one being/person who is Almighty GOD! Jesus was no trinitarian, and the scribe obviously did not have a trinitarian understanding either. (See v.32) Therefore, what Jesus then does, is identify himself from Scripture, as the lord who would one day sit at the right hand of the ONE GOD. He identifies himself as David's lord, David's adoni. Again, because the NT is written in Greek, the same Greek word, kurios, is used. However, the context should determine in what sense the word kurios is being used i.e. in this case speaking of the human Lord Messiah. In like manner, the Greek word kurios, is used for 'lord, master, Sir' etc Even Pilate is called kurios! So, is Pilate, the LORD GOD??? Of course note, the context determines that kurios is being used to denote Pilate being called 'Sir' as a human lord Again, the Jewish people (even the common people) understood that adoni is never used in ref. to deity. Psalms 110.1 is used by both Christ and his disciples to identify who Jesus really is! On the Day of Pentecost, Peter used it to identify Christ. I have just quoted where Jesus uses this verse to identify himself. Yes … Jesus is the one man, the one person, whom the LORD GOD, YAHWEH, has made both Lord and Christ! [Acts 2.36] Hence Jesus is the Lord Messiah! [Luke 2.11, Col 3.24] GOD has made him 'Lord of all' to GOD's glory [Phil 2.11] It is obvious that in spite of this exaltation Jesus is still subject to GOD, Jesus is not Lord over GOD! [1 Cor 15.27] So we have solely ONE GOD, YHWH, the Father [1 Cor 8.4,6; Mark 12:29, Deut 6.4] And there is solely one person who has been made Lord of all [Acts 10.36]; hence we have one Lord, namely Jesus the Messiah [1 Cor 8.6] ONE GOD, YHWH, the Father ONE Lord, GOD's Son, the man Messiah Jesus! [1 Tim 2.5] Hence … (1 Cor 8:5-6)  For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us [THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH] there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. See also http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49 http://www.scatteredsheep.com/lord-lord-lord.htm

Hi AP,
Will try to get to this in the next few days. If you know, can you also point me to your post on Heb 1:10….

Cheers

[Adam Pastor]

SCRIPTURE & DOCTRINE , Truth or Tradition? , Trinity p. 460

[Is 1:18]

Quote

Read on in Mark 12 … After Jesus quotes Deut 6:4-5 (The Shema) affirming his strict Jewish monotheistic belief that there is solely ONE GOD; he then quotes Psalms 110:1 to show in what sense he (that is Jesus) is Lord/kurios! Remember, since the NT is written in Greek, the word 'kurios' has different meanings depending on the context; it is used to denote a variety of Hebrew words. Obviously, in examples such as the quotation of Deut 6:4-5, kurios is being used for the Hebrew word denoting GOD's name, the Tetragrammaton, i.e. YHWH; depicted in our English Bibles as capital 'LORD'. GOD's name occurs over 6700 times in the OT, however when a OT verse containing GOD's name is quoted in the NT, kurios is used.

Oh, you mean like in Romans 10:13, for instance:

Romans 10:9-13
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord [kurios], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD [kurios] WILL BE SAVED.”

I understand…..

Quote

In like manner, GOD's title, Adonai; when a OT verse using this Hebrew word is quoted in the NT, again, kurios is used. Then we have the common Hebrew words used to denote lords, masters and owners, i.e. adon & adoni (Incidentally, the Hebrew word adoni is never used in ref. to deity; it is solely used to denote human lords and sometimes angels) Psalms 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT. Here we have the ONE GOD, YaHWeH, prophetically inviting a human lord to sit at His right hand (The Hebrew word adoni is used for the second occurrence of the word 'lord' in this verse!) So, the LORD GOD invites David's lord/adoni to sit at His right hand! Thus, after Jesus quotes Deut 6:4 in Mark 12:28-29, he continues … (Mark 12:35-37) And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my lord , Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord [adoni]; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. Jesus had earlier affirmed that there is solely one GOD, YAHWEH. That there is Solely one being/person who is Almighty GOD! Jesus was no trinitarian, and the scribe obviously did not have a trinitarian understanding either. (See v.32) Therefore, what Jesus then does, is identify himself from Scripture, as the lord who would one day sit at the right hand of the ONE GOD. He identifies himself as David's lord, David's adoni. Again, because the NT is written in Greek, the same Greek word, kurios, is used. However, the context should determine in what sense the word kurios is being used i.e. in this case speaking of the human Lord Messiah. In like manner, the Greek word kurios, is used for 'lord, master, Sir' etc Even Pilate is called kurios! So, is Pilate, the LORD GOD??? Of course note, the context determines that kurios is being used to denote Pilate being called 'Sir' as a human lord Again, the Jewish people (even the common people) understood that adoni is never used in ref. to deity. Psalms 110.1 is used by both Christ and his disciples to identify who Jesus really is! On the Day of Pentecost, Peter used it to identify Christ. I have just quoted where Jesus uses this verse to identify himself. Yes … Jesus is the one man, the one person, whom the LORD GOD, YAHWEH, has made both Lord and Christ! [Acts 2.36] Hence Jesus is the Lord Messiah! [Luke 2.11, Col 3.24] GOD has made him 'Lord of all' to GOD's glory [Phil 2.11] It is obvious that in spite of this exaltation Jesus is still subject to GOD, Jesus is not Lord over GOD! [1 Cor 15.27] So we have solely ONE GOD, YHWH, the Father [1 Cor 8.4,6; Mark 12:29, Deut 6.4] And there is solely one person who has been made Lord of all [Acts 10.36]; hence we have one Lord, namely Jesus the Messiah [1 Cor 8.6] ONE GOD, YHWH, the Father ONE Lord, GOD's Son, the man Messiah Jesus! [1 Tim 2.5] Hence … (1 Cor 8:5-6) For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us [THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH] there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. See also http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49 http://www.scatteredsheep.com/lord-lord-lord.htm

Since you just rehashed the work of other writers, here is my refutation:

Christians often appeal to Psalm 110:1 to prove that the Hebrew Bible teaches that Yahweh is multi-Personal, that there is more than one Person who is Yahweh God, and that the Messiah is God. The text in question reads:

“The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.’” NIV

According to the Lord Jesus and the other NT writers this is a Psalm of David which he uttered in relation to Christ’s ascension into heavenly glory:

“And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, ‘How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, “The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.” David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?’ And the great throng heard him gladly.” Mark 12:35-36

“Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” Acts 2:33-36

On the basis of the above texts, Christians believe that Jesus is David’s Lord since he is the Christ. And since Yahweh is David’s Lord, Jesus must therefore be Yahweh God.

Many anti-Trinitarians claim that this is an erroneous conclusion or assumption since a careful reading of the Hebrew text disproves such a notion. The Hebrew uses two different words which English translations render as Lord:

“The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’” English Standard Version (ESV)

The words in Hebrew which the above version translates LORD and Lord are actually Yahweh and Adoni, two differ
ent words with two obviously different meanings (or so the argument goes). The text more literally reads in the following manner:

“The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: ‘Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.’” Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)

The assertion is that the use of two different words automatically proves that the Psalmist had two completely different beings in view, and that the second Lord refers to someone who isn’t God. The main problem with this claim is that just because the Psalmist used two different terms it doesn’t necessarily follow that he had two beings in mind who were of completely different essences, i.e. one is Divine while the other is human or angelic. We do agree that the Psalmist had two distinct and different Persons in view, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are of different essences or share different beings. After all, isn’t it true that David’s Lord is Yahweh God?

“I say to the LORD, ‘You are my Lord; I have no good apart from you.’” Psalm 16:2

“Awake and rouse yourself for my vindication, for my cause, my God and my Lord!” Psalm 35:23

And wouldn’t this open up the possibility that the use of Adoni for the second occurrence of Lord is a reference to Yahweh God as David’s Sovereign, David’s Lord? It is quite possible, and yet the anti-Trinitarian says it isn’t very probable.

The reason given for why it is highly improbable that David was addressing Yahweh is because of the fact that the word Adoni is never once used for God in the Hebrew Bible. It is always used for human beings or angels. Moreover, David could have used the word Adonai (literally, “Lords” or “my Lords”) if he had intended for his audience to understand that he was addressing Yahweh since this word is normally used of God.

These claims are erroneous for several reasons. First, in ancient, biblical Hebrew there were no vowel markings to distinguish between the different forms of the word Adon, the word from where we get Adoni and Adonai, which means that the verses would have read the same way since they have the same consonants, making this a moot point.

Second, just because Adoni is used elsewhere for human beings or angels doesn’t mean that David didn’t use it in reference to God. Psalm 110:1 may actually be a case where the word is being used for Yahweh God, making it the exception to the norm. One cannot simply dismiss this as a possibility on a priori grounds, but must be decided by first looking and exegeting the text itself before looking elsewhere.

Third, the word Adoni is used for the Angel of Yahweh in Judges 6:13 who clearly isn’t a mere creature. This particular Angel is actually a manifestation of God himself, just as the immediate context shows:

“Now the angel of the LORD came and SAT under the terebinth at Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites. And the angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, ‘The LORD is with you, O mighty man of valor.’ And Gideon said to him, ‘Please, my Lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all his wonderful deeds that our fathers recounted to us, saying, “Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?” But now the LORD has forsaken us and given us into the hand of Midian.’ AND THE LORD TURNED TO HIM AND SAID, ‘Go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian; do not I send you?’ And he said to him, ‘Please, Lord, how can I save Israel? Behold, my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.’ AND THE LORD SAID TO HIM, ‘But I will be with you, and you shall strike the Midianites as one man.’ And he said to him, ‘If now I have found favor in your eyes, then show me a sign that it is you who speaks with me. Please do not depart from here until I come to you and bring out my present and set it before you.’ And he said, ‘I will stay till you return.’ So Gideon went into his house and prepared a young goat and unleavened cakes from an ephah of flour. The meat he put in a basket, and the broth he put in a pot, and brought them to him under the terebinth and presented them. AND THE ANGEL OF GOD SAID TO HIM, ‘Take the meat and the unleavened cakes, and put them on this rock, and pour the broth over them.’ And he did so. Then the angel of the LORD reached out the tip of the staff that was IN HIS HAND and touched the meat and the unleavened cakes. And fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. And the angel of the LORD vanished from his sight. Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the LORD. And Gideon said, ‘Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face. ’ BUT THE LORD SAID TO HIM, ‘Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.’” Judges 6:11-23

People normally become afraid of dying after seeing God face to face, and yet here Gideon is afraid because he saw the Angel face to face (cf. Genesis 32:30; Exodus 33:20; Judges 13:22). What this basically means is that the Angel was Yahweh himself who both appeared and spoke directly to Gideon, which means that Gideon was addressing Yahweh as his Lord or Adoni.

In another place, Joshua sees a man wielding a sword and addressed him as Adoni after he realized who this man actually was:

“When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, ‘Are you for us, or for our adversaries?’ And he said, ‘No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?’ And the commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.” Joshua 5:13-15

Compare the above with the following texts:

“Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And THE ANGEL OF THE LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. And Moses said, ‘I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.’ When THE LORD SAW that he turned aside to see, GOD CALLED TO HIM OUT OF THE BUSH, ‘Moses, Moses!’ And he said, ‘Here I am.’ Then he said, ‘Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.’ And he said, ‘I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.” Exodus 3:1-6

“Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, and I blot them out,” Exodus 23:20-23

The man wielding the sword, the man who leads the armies of the Lord is actually the Angel of Yahweh sent ahead of Israel to fight their enemies, the One whom God says has his very own name within him and who can forgive sins, a divine prerogative. Putting it simply, the Adoni who Joshua saw was the Angel of God who happens to also be God Almighty himself! It is little wonder that Joshua fell down and worshiped him.

Here is one final example
where Adoni is used for a Divine Being:

“On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month of Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, son of Iddo, saying, ‘I saw in the night, and behold, a man riding on a red horse! He was standing among the myrtle trees in the glen, and behind him were red, sorrel, and white horses. Then I said, ‘What are these, my lord?’ The angel who talked with me said to me, ‘I will show you what they are.’ So the man who was standing among the myrtle trees answered, ‘These are they whom the LORD has sent to patrol the earth.’ And they answered the angel of the LORD who was standing among the myrtle trees, and said, ‘We have patrolled the earth, and behold, all the earth remains at rest.’” Zechariah 1:7-11

Zechariah provides enough clues that identify this specific Angel as being the very same Angel of Yahweh mentioned in the above texts:

“Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And the LORD said to Satan, ‘The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?’ Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. And the angel said to those who were standing before him, ‘Remove the filthy garments from him.’ And to him he said, ‘Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.’” Zechariah 3:1-4

The inspired prophet identifies this Angel as Yahweh God who has the power to forgive or remove sins!

The above texts refute the assertion that Adoni is never used of Yahweh, since in at least three places Adoni is used for a man, for an Angel, whom the texts explicitly identify as Yahweh. More on this point a little later.

Noted Messianic and Hebrew scholar Dr. Michael L. Brown beautifully summarizes the above points in his response to some similar arguments raised by an anti-missionary named Rabbi Tovia Singer:

“There are at least three problems with his argument: First, he is incorrect in stating that ‘my lord’ is reserved ‘for the profane, never the sacred.’ Just look in Joshua 5:14, where Joshua addresses the angel of the Lord as ‘my lord’ (‘adoni). Yet this divine messenger is so holy that Joshua is commanded to remove the shoes from his feet because he is standing on holy ground, just as Moses was commanded when the angel of the Lord – representing Yahweh himself – appeared to him (Exod. 3:1-6). This is hardly a ‘profane’ rather than ‘sacred’ usage! Similar examples can be found in Judges 6:13 and Zechariah 1:9, among other places. In each of these, angels are addressed as ‘my lord,’ and in some of these cases, the angels bear the divine presence. Second, Singer’s whole argument hinges on the Masoretic vocalization, which did not reach its final form until the Middle Ages. As every student of Hebrew knows, biblical Hebrew was written with consonants and ‘vowel letters’ only; the vowel signs were added hundreds of years later. Yet both ‘adonai (used only for Yahweh) and ‘adoni (used for men and angels, as we just noted) are spelled identically in Hebrew, consisting of the four consonants ‘-d-n-y. How then can Rabbi Singer make such a dogmatic statement about the differences between these two forms in the Bible? His argument stands only if we accept the absolute authority of the Masoretic vocalization, which in some cases follows the original writing by almost two thousand years. Third, it is not really important whether we translate with ‘my Lord’ or ‘my lord,’ since Yeshua’s whole argument was simply that David called the Messiah ‘lord’ meaning that the Messiah had to more than David’s son. While many Christian translations do render ‘adoni as ‘my Lord’ in Psalm 110:1, they are careful to distinguish between the first Lord (i.e., LORD) and the second.” (Brown, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: Messianic Prophecy Objections [Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 2003], Volume Three, pp. 137-138)

More importantly, the Psalmist does refer to his Lord as Adonai right in verse 5:

“The Lord (Adonai) is AT YOUR RIGHT HAND; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses; he will shatter chiefs over the wide earth. He will drink from the brook by the way; therefore he will lift up his head.” Psalm 110:5-7

Here, Adonai is the One who will bring judgment against the nations and their kings, and will even drink from a brook! This clearly refers to David's Lord in verse 1, not just because he drinks from a brook of water, a human function, but also because he is said to be at “your right hand.” In verse 1, this refers to the right hand of Yahweh:

“The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at MY right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'

Now compare this again to verse 5:

“The Lord is at YOUR right hand; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath.”

“Your right hand” obviously refers to Yahweh's right hand. This means that the Lord or Adonai of verse 5 is actually David's Lord, the Messiah, since he is the one who is at Yahweh's right hand!

Moreover, the passage plainly states it is the Lord (Adonai) who executes judgment upon the nations and who will shatter kings in the day of his wrath which, according to the NT, is what Jesus will do in his return to the earth:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.” Matthew 25:31-33

“The Father JUDGES NO ONE, but has given ALL JUDGMENT TO THE SON, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.” John 5:22-23, 27

“Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For 'God has put all things in subjection under his feet.' But when it says, 'all things are put in subjection,' it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

“When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?'” Revelation 6:12-17

“They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” Revelation 17:14

“Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many
diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, 'Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.' And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.” Revelation 19:11-21

These texts provide further affirmation that the Adonai of 110:5 is indeed the Messiah, David's Lord.

With the foregoing behind us, we can resume our discussion of Psalm 110:1. In order to exhaust all points of views and arguments, so as to not leave anything out, there are really only three possibilities for us to consider. David could have been addressing one of the following three persons or beings as his Lord:

Yahweh God.
An angel.
A human being.
The problem with claiming that David was addressing another human being as his Lord is that, according to the Hebrew Bible, David was the highest ranking human ruler in all the earth:

“Of old you spoke in a vision to your godly one, and said: I have granted help to one who is mighty; I have exalted one chosen from the people. I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him, … He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.” Psalm 89:19-20, 26-27

Thus, there was no human ruler that was greater in prestige, power, authority, and rank than David. This means that the One he addressed as his Lord could not simply be a human figure, and we are therefore left with the other two options. Either David’s Lord was a Divine Being or an angelic creature; he couldn’t merely be a human sovereign.

Although there is a text which implies that man is made a little lower than angels positionally:

“what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings (elohim) and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet,” Psalm 8:4-6

This is due primarily to the fall of man, that since the fall man became lower than the angels in glory and rank. But according to the same Scriptures all those who are reconciled to God, all those whom God has elected for salvation, are restored to the glory which God created them whereby they become more exalted than the angels:

“Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. It has been testified somewhere, ‘What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet.’ Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.” Hebrews 2:5-9

In fact, angels are created to serve God’s elect:

“And to which of the angels has he ever said, ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’? Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:13-14

Notice that the text denies that angels sit on God’s throne whereas earlier in the same text the author says that Jesus rules forever and is thereby superior to all the angels:

“having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you’? Or again, ‘I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son’? And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, ‘Let all God's angels worship him.’ Of the angels he says, ‘He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.’ BUT OF THE SON he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.’ And, ‘You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.’” Hebrews 1:4-12

In order to show how and in what way Jesus is superior to the angels the inspired writer cites several texts which refer to the enthronement of the Israelite kings, namely Psalm 2:7, 45:6-7 and 2 Samuel 7:14 (10-15), and applies them to Christ. These texts initially had David and his sons such as Solomon in mind. What this shows is that the Israelite kings were greater than any of the angels since no angel ever sat on God’s throne to rule.

In other words, since all the anointed kings sat on God’s throne:

“Then David said to all the assembly, ‘Bless the LORD your God.’ And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and paid homage to the LORD and to the king. And they offered sacrifices to the LORD, and on the next day offered burnt offerings to the LORD, 1,000 bulls, 1,000 rams, and 1,000 lambs, with their drink offerings, and sacrifices in abundance for all Israel. And they ate and drank before the LORD on that day with great gladness. And they made Solomon the son of David king the second time, and they anointed him as prince for the LORD, and Zadok as priest. Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of David his father. And he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him. All the leaders and the mighty men, and also all the sons of King David, pledged their allegiance to King Solomon. And the LORD made Solomon very great in the sight of all Israel and bestowed on him such royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel.” 1 Chronicles 29:20-25

They were therefore greater than angels in rank, authority and honor, which means that David could not have been addressing an angelic being as his Lord. Angels serve God’s elect and his anointed king, making God’s people superior to and sovereign over even the angels.

We are left with only one choice, namely, that David’s Lord is none other than Yahweh God himself. And since Jesus is identified as that Lord whom David was addressing by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, this therefore proves that the Christian interpretation is the correct one. Psalm 110:1 is a very strong text supporting the Christian under
standing that, a) God is multi-Personal, and b) that the Messiah is actually God!

But there is still one final possibility that we must consider if we are going to be fair. David may have actually been addressing a specific Angel, namely the Angel of Yahweh whom we had mentioned earlier, the very One that happens to be God in essence and who often appeared in the OT as a man. If this were so, then this would mean that the Angel of Yahweh became an actual human being from David’s line which then made him both David’s Lord and David’s Son.

This is actually the position we hold to, that David’s Son (whom the NT identifies as Jesus) in his prehuman existence appeared throughout the OT as the Angel of Yahweh, the very God who often appeared to the OT saints as a man. The difference with this specific Angel is that, unlike all the other angels, he isn’t a creature but the Creator God who assumed the function or role of an Angel or Messenger. Hence, this view would still mean that it wasn’t a mere angel or human whom David acknowledged as his Sovereign, but he was addressing his God who appeared in the form of an Angel and of a man.

Thus, David’s Son is all three things simultaneously, i.e. he is God who functioned as an Angel or Messenger, who then became man by virtue of his being born from a virgin maiden by the power of the Holy Spirit!

For more on the Angel being the pre-Incarnate Christ please consult this paper.

Now someone may say that Jesus is merely a human being who was granted a higher rank than David, and therefore doesn’t prove that he is God. There are several problems with this explanation. First, Jesus’ question regarding this Psalm presupposes that the Christ is more than just a man:

“Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, ‘What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?’ They said to him, ‘The son of David.’ He said to them, ‘How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying, “The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet”? If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?’ And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.” Matthew 22:41-46

If the Christ were merely a man then he couldn’t be David’s Lord since the latter was his ancestor. In other words, Jesus is saying that David’s son couldn’t be his ancestor’s Lord since fathers are normally greater than their sons in position and authority.

Second, it will not do to say that because the Messiah would be greater in glory he would therefore be superior to David, since this assumes that David’s son is his Lord by virtue of his rank. Jesus’ point is basically that the Messiah’s rank or prestige still wouldn’t make him David’s Lord if he were merely a human son. After all, Solomon was granted greater riches, glory and wisdom than his father without this ever making him Lord over his father. In a similar manner, the Messiah’s prestige and glory wouldn’t be grounds for his becoming David’s sovereign.

Third, the NT documents teach that Jesus is God in essence, the very unique Son of God. Basically, this explains why David’s Son could be his Lord and supports our position that only One who is God could ever be sovereign over David.

To summarize the data, we discovered that:

According to the Lord Jesus and the NT writers David composed Psalm 110.
David, in Psalm 110, addressed some unnamed entity as his Lord, as his Sovereign.
Both the Lord Jesus and the NT documents also claim that David composed this Psalm about the Messiah. Hence, this is a Messianic Psalm composed about the greater David, the greater Solomon who was to come.
According to the Hebrew Bible, there was no human ruler higher in rank and authority than David who could therefore be his sovereign.
The Holy Bible also teaches that all of the kings sit/sat on God’s throne whereas angels do not, indicating that the former are/were greater than the latter.
This would therefore imply that David could not have been addressing any angel as his Lord, forcing us to conclude that he was actually addressing Yahweh.
Yet, since the Lord Jesus and his Apostles claimed that David was referring to the Christ, this means that the Christ (who is Jesus) is none other than Yahweh God himself.
But the same Psalm says that Yahweh was addressing David’s Lord, which implies that there are actually two distinct individuals that exist as God.
(Source)

(Emphasis mine)

Seems a little lazy to answer the post this way but I have a backlog of posts to catch up on, not a lot of time and it addressed all of the points in you post….

Be well

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Why stop there?
Why not devise a multipersonality God?
God is One and has a son.

[music4two]

Since the Trinity is being discussed in several places you will read this post in several threads.

Did the apostles ever teach that God could come down to live as a man? No! In fact they were utterly disgusted with that concept.

Acts 14 
8At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked.

 9This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well,

 10said with a loud voice, “Stand upright on your feet.” And he leaped up and began to walk.

 11When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they raised their voice, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.”

 12And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker.

 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds.

 14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out

 15and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.

Notice the clear things said in this portion of scripture.
Paul and Barnabus are in Lystra. The native Lyconium population had mythology detailing the Gods coming to live as men on Earth.

Verses 8 through 10 – God heals a man through the hands of Paul.

Verses 11 through 13 – Witnessing the miracle the people of Lystra imediately conclude and act upon a major tennant of their mythogy. First in importance was the concept as follows – “The gods have become like men and have come down to us.” After which they proposed names of Gods for Paul and Barnabus. The first thought was not who these gods were (Paul and Barnabus). The first thought was that their deity had become like a man and come to live with them. Pure Lyconium/Greek mythology.

Verses 14 and 15 – Paul and Barnabus react violently to the actions and words of the Lyconiuns. Tearing of ones robe is done to indicate complete abhorance and violent disgust at what is occuring. With this type of reaction the first thing the apostles would do would be to counter and correct that which has disgusted them.
What do they say? “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you,– The first thing they do is correct the concept that God can come down and live as a man. They do not formost correct them for believing in Hermes and Zeus, but instead correct their concept of God becoming a man.
Paul continues – and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.
Paul calls what they are doing “vain things”. What is he refering to? “ Vain things” refers to “these things” which in return refers to the belief that God can come down to live as a man. Paul says they come to preach the good news that they would turn from this mythology to a living God. Then Paul goes on to say why the living God is different then those whom they worship. (remember the context is still worshipping Gods that come down to live as men) the kiving God “MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.” This seperates Him from those things which He created. He would not live as one of the things He created. He is above that.

As I have posted before and as the Trinitarians have ignored and refused to deal with:

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Instead of taking God at His word here, they teach that God became a man.
One of the most defining aspects of the Judeo-Christian God is His immutable nature. He cannot stop being God. He cannot give up any of His attribute withour ceasing to be God.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The Hebrew word here for man is “eesh”. It means man and is a contraction of the word en-oshe, meaning a human or man in general.
Over 90 times Jesus is refered to as the son of man. The word used in the NT for man is “anthropos” which can only mean human being. It does not mean a dual natured being. Not only does this denote his full humanity, but clearly shows he cannot be a God without contradicting these scriptures. Again they ignor these verses and claim that Jesus was a man and a God at the same time. In fact there is not one clear scripture that describes Jesus as being a dual natured being.
The very core and heart of being a member of the human race is our single human nature. When trinitarians make Jesus of a dual nature, they remove Him from the ranks of humanity and make him a diferent creature.
When the trinity doctrine proclaims things like God became a man or that Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time, they are in clear contradiction of scripture and are not worshipping the God of the bible.

Where do these false concepts come from?
Through allusion and unclear scripture. By reading their doctrine into scripture. By taking scripture out of context. By not considering the vast difference in meaning between Hebrew culture and writing and that of the western world. Through 1800 years of false tradition. Through philosophy and mythology added to Christianity after the apostolic period. Through threats of death and banishment by a Sun worshipping Roman Emperior, Constantine. Through Constantine’s philosophies and concepts of Christ and God being of the same substance. Through hundreds of years of persecution by the Catholic Church established by Constantine.

MYTHOLOGY UPON ILLUSION UPON DISHONESTY UPON TRADITION UPON MISINTERPRETATION AND MISSUNDERSTANDING.

This is at the root and the core of the Trinity and Dual-natured Christ doctrine.

Those who push these doctrines are no longer scriptural but have become doctrinal. They are not about seeking truth in scripture, but about proving their doctrine at all cost. They ignor any proof that does not support their doctrine. They refuse to admit that these doctrines have no functionality toward the plan of God. Their doctrines do not work to draw you closer to Christ, but the concepts within them actually make Christ a different creature. He is no longer our brother and example. All of the accomplishments Christ did are at least partially attributable to Him being deity. He did it as a God! We are not God therefore we cannot do it! Their doctrine, in effect, scraps the plan of God and is anti Christianity/Anti-Christ.

I do not have time to respond to several threads. If you wish to respond to this post please do so on the “Trinity” thread.
Thanks — >

[NickHassan]

Hi m42,
Spamming is not welcome. Please limit your posting to one thread and do not repeat it it many.

[music4two]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 25 2007,17:48)

Hi m42, Spamming is not welcome. Please limit your posting to one thread and do not repeat it it many.

Is posting the same scripture in several threads “spamming”?
Is talking about those scriptures in several thread “spamming”?
Is having several threads on the same subject “Spamming”?
I did not think about it or consider it spamming.

[Author]

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