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Hi tow,
So you would withdraw from God and his appointed Lord His sovereign right to forgive because of ordinances written for men.
You arrogance and folly knows no bounds.
You insult God daily.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 03 2008,19:23) Hi tow,
So you would withdraw from God and his appointed Lord His sovereign right to forgive because of ordinances written for men.
You arrogance and folly knows no bounds.
You insult God daily.
Idolatry insults G-d. You do that daily. So how do I insult Him? By not believing in a false messiah for my fire insurance?Hi tow,
Your proofs are your own assumptions.
We base our understandings on what is written.But faith does not need understanding anyway.
Understanding follows faith.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 03 2008,23:54) But faith does not need understanding anyway.
Classic. And now you know why real Jews cannot accept Jesus.Christians say that before Jesus died on the cross, the only true way to receive forgiveness of sins was via animal blood sacrifice. Even Hebrews says
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Was Jesus under the law? What did he say?
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
If the new covenant, the covenant that no longer needed blood sacrifice because of Jesus' shed blood had not come until Jesus's death, what of the following?
==================================
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”Luk 7:48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
==================================What is this? I see no sacrifice here. How can sins be forgiven under the “old covenant” without blood?
David tried to say ISa 53:11 was the key. Although Isa 53 is not about Jesus, let's examine this claim.
===============================
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
===============================Well, it seems that 53:11 is the result of 53:9-10. Since Jesus was forgiving sins without bloodshed before his crucifixion, Isa 53:11 could not apply.
Anyone else have a clue how Jesus could forgive sins without the shedding of blood?
Hi Tow,
You are so confused.
You are stuck in the OT emphasis on the works of men.
Does God have to shed blood to forgive sin?
Nonsense.
God was in Christ and Christ and his followers were also given the authority to forgive sin[Jn20].
Christ forgave sin though men were not seeking it.
You would attempt to restrict the work of God to words given to men.But for men to seek and obtain the forgiveness of sin apart from the sovereign work of God then there must be shedding of blood.
The blood of Christ, the lamb of God, has been shed once for all.
Now there is salvation by the forgiveness of sin for all who repent and are reborn.
That is the gospel of Jesus Christ.Lk24
45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48And ye are witnesses of these things.
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2008,11:47) Hi Tow,
You are so confused.
You are stuck in the OT emphasis on the works of men.
Does God have to shed blood to forgive sin?
Nonsense.No, but your GT says as much. You say it is true, why do you not believe it?
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
No wiggle room for you Nick. Jesus said the law was still in effect and would not pass until heaven and earth had passed. Look out your window. Earth is still the same.
Quote God was in Christ and Christ and his followers were also given the authority to forgive sin[Jn20]. So Jesus said he had authority and he gave his followers authority but I do not see a single place where G-d said He would give such authority.
Quote Christ forgave sin though men were not seeking it.
You would attempt to restrict the work of God to words given to men.Sorry, but without repentence there is no forgiveness. If forigiveness is so freely available why bother doing right?
Quote But for men to seek and obtain the forgiveness of sin apart from the sovereign work of God then there must be shedding of blood. That is not what Hebrews said. It said under the law. Jesus said the law was still in effect. Why are you struggling so with your own GT?
Quote The blood of Christ, the lamb of God, has been shed once for all. Sorry, but when he was forgiving sins he had not been “sacrificed”. Even though human sacrifice is an abomination to G-d and Jesus was not sacrificed according to G-d's own commands, there was no bloodshed when he supposedly forgave sins. So those people walked away with a false sense of security.
Quote Now there is salvation by the forgiveness of sin for all who repent and are reborn.
That is the gospel of Jesus Christ.Lk24
45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48And ye are witnesses of these things.
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
Yes, all you have to do is believe. Then you can do whatever you want because you are “under the blood”.No wonder Christians killed so many Jews. After all, their wiicked acts were “under the blood” so they didn't have to worry about anything.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2008,12:03) Hi tow,
Is God not able to forgive sin without blood?
Your god is so small.
Christians say that before Jesus died on the cross, the only true way to receive forgiveness of sins was via animal blood sacrifice. Even Hebrews saysHeb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Was Jesus under the law? What did he say?
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
If the new covenant, the covenant that no longer needed blood sacrifice because of Jesus' shed blood had not come until Jesus's death, what of the following?
==================================
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”Luk 7:48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
==================================What is this? I see no sacrifice here. How can sins be forgiven under the “old covenant” without blood?
Hi tow,
you have admitted you are a sinner.
you do not have access to the sacrifices of the OT or the NT.
Where does that leave you?
Will you die in your sins?
Jn8
19Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?”
23But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2008,12:09) Hi tow,
you have admitted you are a sinner.
you do not have access to the sacrifices of the OT or the NT.
Where does that leave you?
Will you die in your sins?
Jn8
19Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?”
23But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Christians say that before Jesus died on the cross, the only true way to receive forgiveness of sins was via animal blood sacrifice. Even Hebrews saysHeb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Was Jesus under the law? What did he say?
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
If the new covenant, the covenant that no longer needed blood sacrifice because of Jesus' shed blood had not come until Jesus's death, what of the following?
==================================
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”Luk 7:48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
==================================What is this? I see no sacrifice here. How can sins be forgiven under the “old covenant” without blood?
The operative phrase being “Christians say”. If only they'd read the Tanakh they'd realize that there are many ways to atone for sins.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 05 2008,05:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2008,12:09) Hi tow,
you have admitted you are a sinner.
you do not have access to the sacrifices of the OT or the NT.
Where does that leave you?
Will you die in your sins?
Jn8
19Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?”
23But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Christians say that before Jesus died on the cross, the only true way to receive forgiveness of sins was via animal blood sacrifice. Even Hebrews saysHeb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Was Jesus under the law? What did he say?
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
If the new covenant, the covenant that no longer needed blood sacrifice because of Jesus' shed blood had not come until Jesus's death, what of the following?
==================================
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”Luk 7:48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
==================================What is this? I see no sacrifice here. How can sins be forgiven under the “old covenant” without blood?
Hi tow,
Still deaf?
God was in Christ.
God is sovereign and you cannot remove his right to forgive sin.Blood only?
======================================
Lev 5:11 “But if he cannot afford two turtledoves or two pigeons, then he shall bring as his offering for the sin that he has committed a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it and shall put no frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:12 And he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take a handful of it as its memorial portion and burn this on the altar, on the LORD's food offerings; it is a sin offering.
Lev 5:13 Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the grain offering.”Exo 30:11 The LORD said to Moses,
Exo 30:12 “When you take the census of the people of Israel, then each shall give a ransom for his life to the LORD when you number them, that there be no plague among them when you number them.
Exo 30:13 Each one who is numbered in the census shall give this: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (the shekel is twenty gerahs), half a shekel as an offering to the LORD.
Exo 30:14 Everyone who is numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the LORD's offering.
Exo 30:15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less, than the half shekel, when you give the LORD's offering to make atonement for your lives.
Exo 30:16 You shall take the atonement money from the people of Israel and shall give it for the service of the tent of meeting, that it may bring the people of Israel to remembrance before the LORD, so as to make atonement for your lives.”
======================================Is offering always needed?
======================================
Pro 16:6 By steadfast love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD one turns away from evil.1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, “Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.
Hos 14:2 Take with you words and return to the LORD; say to him, “Take away all iniquity; accept what is good, and we will pay with bulls the vows of our lips.
======================================Can anyone else die for our sins?
======================================
Deu 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
======================================How can we overcome the wages of sin?
======================================
Eze 33:14 Again, though I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' yet if he turns from his sin and does what is just and right,
Eze 33:15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, not doing injustice, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he shall surely live.
Eze 33:17 “Yet your people say, 'The way of the Lord is not just,' when it is their own way that is not just.
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:19 And when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he shall live by this.
======================================What is required of us then?
======================================
Mic 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?Hi tow,
At last you are possibly seeing the truth.
The law given men was always spiritually a law of love.
God makes rules for men but has the right to allow for variation.
The God of love has given all men the simple awareness of goodness.
Men would vainly try to encompass our God with rules to govern His behaviours.
Malachi too records there is a book of those who love the word of God-are you written there?
A right relationship with God and men is approved by God as love finds love and mercy finds God's mercy.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 04 2008,14:32) Hi tow,
At last you are possibly seeing the truth.
The law given men was always spiritually a law of love.Yes, but you don't need the GT. Its all there in Tanakh.
Quote God makes rules for men but has the right to allow for variation. I'm guessing you think that the GT is the variation?
Quote The God of love has given all men the simple awareness of goodness.
Men would vainly try to encompass our God with rules to govern His behaviours.
Malachi too records there is a book of those who love the word of God-are you written there?
A right relationship with God and men is approved by God as love finds love and mercy finds God's mercy.
Way to go Nick. No Jesus anywhere in your post. You are the one that is finally learning my friend. You are realizing the truth is there and Jesus was never needed.Hi Tow,
Man obtained the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden
The Spirit of God has anointed and helped man do the will of God since the beginning.
The prophets were anointed and David pleaded with God not to take away His Spirit from him.
Now that Spirit is only available through Jesus, the Son of God who is the way.
But merciful God has written that men will be saved outside of that way.” If any gives you a cup of water because you belong to me he will not lose his reward..”
“When you did it to the least of these my brethren you did it to me…”God is Sovereign and many will complain that they have worked longer
but God holds them all equal who serve.
Mock Him no more
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