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To david,
Quote (david @ Sep. 30 2005,02:21) t8 says:
“Jesus' Church is not your organisation. It is Jesus organisation. That is the difference that we are trying to point out.”
Well, if that's what you're attempting to do, can you please do a better job of it.david.
OK, this time I'm actually going to sleep.
OK so you missed the point. I will say it a different way but I suspect that you will just continue to be of hard hearing.It is only in the name of Yeshua/Jesus that we should do all things. But many do things in the name of the Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, Baptist, Lutherans, and other names. Like Babel, they try to reach God in their own name and God confuses their language because they are not doing his will in the name of his son. Denominations are the languages of Christianity, they are the curse of the iniquity of those who build in their own name.
There was no point in saying what language is best after God divided men's language. But there was an original language was there not. Likewise it is carnal to say that my Church is the right one, or my organisation is the best. Did not Paul rebuke them who said “I am a follower of Paul, I am a follower of Apollo. Are we not all one in Christ, is Christ divided?
david, there is one bride for Jesus. It is HIS church, not YOUR one. If you can't hear that, then I do not think there is much point in discussing spiritual things with you.
Hi David,
Mk 16.17,1Cor 12.10-30, 13.1-8, 14 2-27,Rom 8.23-27,Jude 20,Acts 10.46,Acts 19.6etc
Surely you are familiar with this gift of the Spirit?Just so everyone knows, this topic moved to the “tongues” thread. That's why I'm not responding here.
Hi david,
I asked before but do not think you have answered and I would like clarification..Do you believe salvation is only through the JW organisation?
Do you believe only 144,000 will be saved?
Do you improve your chance of being in this group if you preach more and do good works?
If more were to join you then would you not reduce your own chance of making the team?
What motivation would this be for effective preaching?
Are we then all lost in your view?Quote This is what has been stopping me from seeking fellowship with JWs. I believe much of what they teach but they are missing the understanding in this area [use of weapons, politics] Nick, since k4c has said that he believes “much of what [JW's] teach,” you are essentially saying that k4c also has bizarre and unbiblical beliefs (unless you were referring soley to those couple of things that K4c has issue with). As well, a couple times I've noticed people on here accusing you of being a JW because of your “bizarre” belief that God is not a trinity. I guess for the world, such beliefs are bizarre. But not unbiblical.
Nick, your words above are pretty much how the scribes and pharsisees would have described the early Christians. There's nothing wrong with being different.
It's true that we are definitely distinct, separate, and different from the majority of mankind, from the world under Satan's influence, from the pagan philisophical false religious beliefs the world believes.
As far as unbiblical beliefs, we only base our beliefs on the Bible.
david.
Hi david,
There is a problem if, in your difference, you also are different from and separate from the Body of Christ.Do you have to be reborn of water and the Spirit and enter the Body of Christ to become a JW or are only leaders members and thus saved?
If not then since salvation is available to all would you not be safer to strike out on your own to follow Jesus?
What about all the unanswered questions in this forum?
Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)
I know your whole religious belief system is wrapped around the thought that you must be born again to be saved. But what does this scripture actually say?
What is the kingdom?
What does it mean to enter the kingdom of God?
Who make up this kingdom?Nick, a kingdom is a governement run by a king, namely Jesus.
Nick, in the country I live in there is a government. Not everyone in this country is a part of that government. Rather, the government is made of a minority of us Canadians and it works for our benefit. Similarly, not everyone need be a “judge” or a “priest” and or ruler. Only those who make up the heavenly kingdom need to be born again. This is what the scripture actually says.
Not everyone needs to be a part of that kingdom to be saved. You don't need to be a part of that kingdom to share in the benefits of it's rulership. Those who are chosen to make up that kingdom are to rule over the earth. What does that scripture say? Do not go beyond what it says.Quote What about all the unanswered questions in this forum? Such as? I remember avoiding some questions simply because I wanted to focus on others. Are there any questions you specifically want answered Nick? I could definitely focus a lot more attention on being born again if you like.
david.
David,
I think the scripture is plain. You must be born again.“3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
The reason why you cannot SEE this reality is because You must be born again. JW doctrine seems attractive because they claim to have all of the answers, but in reality when a simple scripture such as this needs to be followed by a bunch of rationalization and explanation, it demonstrates a great need for justification.
The Bible says, “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Cor. 11:3). When I trust that an organization has all the answers, then even the Bible is not sufficient, because there is simplicity (clarity) in Christ, and not confusion.Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 09 2005,15:38) David,
I think the scripture is plain. You must be born again.“3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
The reason why you cannot SEE this reality is because You must be born again. JW doctrine seems attractive because they claim to have all of the answers, but in reality when a simple scripture such as this needs to be followed by a bunch of rationalization and explanation, it demonstrates a great need for justification.
The Bible says, “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Cor. 11:3). When I trust that an organization has all the answers, then even the Bible is not sufficient, because there is simplicity (clarity) in Christ, and not confusion.
Sultan, don' get a big head but you must be an answer to my prayers!Right on Sultan,
We must be born again before we enter into the kingdom of God. I'm sure you guys are familiar with plants, particularly annuals. They are “reborn” every spring, but before this happens they die in the winter. Anything that is living cannot be reborn unless it dies. This is the role water baptism plays in rebirth. Water baptism is a watery grave. You are uniting with the Lord Jesus in his death(Romans 6:1-4).
In verse 5 of this same passage Paul says, “If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will CERTAINLY also be united with him in his resurrection.
In verse 8 Paul says, ” Now if we died with Christ, we BELIEVE that we will also live with him. (BELIEVE=FAITH)
2nd Timothy 2:11 Paul says, “This is a trustworthy saying: if we die with him(referring to Christ)we will also live with him
Water baptism is not a work but an expression of your Faith. Hebrews 11:1 defines FAITH as being sure of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see.
A true believer will express his FAITH by dying with the Lord Jesus in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. By this FAITH, the true believer will also be resurrected with him by the baptism of the Holy Spirit thus being born of the water and Spirit. (John 3:5)
The scriptures tell us that God wants all men to be saved. He doesn't want any of us to perish but to repent. Now if this is the heart of God, would he leave us a confusing plan of salvation? 1 Corinthians 14:33 says that God is not the author of confusion. Folks the gospel is easy enough for a child to understand.
God's Blessings
Quote (david @ Dec. 09 2005,01:48) What is a kingdom?
What is God's kingdom according to scripture?
When Nicodemus came to Jesus the issue was not a definition of a kingdom, the issue was a definition of Nicodemus. While Nicodemus thought he had it going on being a ruler of the Jews, Jesus revealed his heart. Nicodemus was lost. That's the whole purpose of God to reconcile us to Himself (2 Cor. 5:19). That is done by the new birth. The Bible tells us in 1 Pet. 1:23 that we are Born again through the Word of God. No matter what the definition of a kingdom is YOU will not be a part of the kingdom UNLESS YOU'RE BORN AGAIN.Right Sultan, and I agree with that. “….YOU will not be a part of the kingdom UNLESS YOU'RE BORN AGAIN.” But what does it mean to be a part of that kingdom? What purpose do those who make up this kingdom serve? What is the purpose of this kingdom?
You're right, the issue was not the definiton of what the kingdom is. But, since he said, as you say that “UNLESS YOU'RE BORN AGAIN,” “YOU will not be a part of the kingdom,” then being born again is related to the being “a part of the kingdom” obviously.
My question is rather simple: What is God's kingdom?
Even simpler: What is a kingdom?
If you can't answer this, then what good is it for you to be born again, if you're not sure why you must be born again?david.
david.
Quote (david @ Dec. 10 2005,19:45) Right Sultan, and I agree with that. “….YOU will not be a part of the kingdom UNLESS YOU'RE BORN AGAIN.” But what does it mean to be a part of that kingdom? What purpose do those who make up this kingdom serve? What is the purpose of this kingdom? You're right, the issue was not the definiton of what the kingdom is. But, since he said, as you say that “UNLESS YOU'RE BORN AGAIN,” “YOU will not be a part of the kingdom,” then being born again is related to the being “a part of the kingdom” obviously.
My question is rather simple: What is God's kingdom?
Even simpler: What is a kingdom?
If you can't answer this, then what good is it for you to be born again, if you're not sure why you must be born again?david.
david.
HI David,The kindom of God is made up of His children, all of them. If you are a father and one son is very smart an the other not so smart would you love the smart son more? The elect are kings and priest does that mean that the Father loves them more? Does the Father just deny the rest of His children and ignore them as to use others to speak to them? Is this why Jesus died? Ther is only one mediator between God and man Christ Jesus. Not the elect! God loves all His children!
Kingdom- : a politically organized community or major territorial unit having a monarchical form of government headed by a king or queen
often capitalized a : the eternal kingship of God b : the realm in which God's will is fulfilled
a : a realm or region in which something is dominant b : an area or sphere in which one holds a preeminent position. Here is your definition. So what is your point? The kingdom of God which now is, and always has been is comprised of those who are His.Hi david,
Would you think we need not enter the kingdom? Is that an optional extra for those who want to be leaders?Jesus came to preach this kingdom and suffered and died that it be heard throughout the world. Was he wasting his time with unnecessary folly as you could always save yourself anyway?You truly have been deceived.Quote Is that an optional extra for those who want to be leaders?Jesus came to preach this kingdom and suffered and died that it be heard throughout the world. Was he wasting his time with unnecessary folly as you could always save yourself anyway? I am not saying we can save ourselves. We can't. But a kingdom as Sultan has shown is basically a government headed by a king (Jesus Christ). It is made up of rulers. This kingdom is a special provision by God set up for the benefit of mankind. God has graciously and wisely set up those who have experiences the trials of imperfection to be our judges and rulers along with Christ. Had Adam and Eve and Satan not lead us down this path of sin and death, there really wouldn't have been a need for this provision.
Nick, of course Jesus wasn't wasting his time preaching about the kingdom. You should obviously know Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe this as they more than anyone are fullfilling his words:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Of course Jesus preached about this kingdom. It is wonderful fabulous news. It is the means by which God uses humans to bring mankind to perfection. Those who make up the kingdom are to be priests, judges, rulers. But over whom? Every government needs subjects.
The question I was getting across was: What does it mean to “enter into the kingdom of God,” “enter the kingdom of God,” “enter the reign of God,” “enter the holy nation of God,” or “enter God’s kingdom” as various translations express it?
Jesus’ disciples understood the Kingdom to be an actual government of God, though they did not comprehend the reach of its domain. Nathanael said to Jesus: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” (Joh 1:49) They knew the things foretold about “the holy ones” in the prophecy of Daniel. (Da 7:18, 27) Jesus directly promised his apostolic followers that they would occupy “thrones.” (Mt 19:28) James and John sought certain privileged positions in the Messianic government, and Jesus acknowledged that there would be such privileged positions, but he stated that the assigning of these rested with his Father, the Sovereign Ruler. (Mt 20:20-23; Mr 10:35-40) So, whereas his disciples mistakenly limited Messiah’s kingly rule to earth and specifically to fleshly Israel, even doing so on the day of the resurrected Jesus’ ascension (Ac 1:6), they correctly understood that it referred to a governmental arrangement.—Compare Mt 21:5; Mr 11:7-10.
Nick, I think you confuse what I say. Salvation is open to just as many people as will demonstrate true faith in the provision that God has made through Jesus. But a careful study of God’s Word and Christ’s teachings shows that only a limited number share the privilege of being born again, born ‘from water and from spirit,’ thus to share heavenly rulership with Christ. (John 3:3-5; Romans 8:16, 17; Revelation 14:1-3) [[Is everyone that claims to be born again actually born again?]] The Bible says that only 144,000 will go to heaven to be with Christ. (Revelation 14:1, 3) What will they do in heaven? (Rev. 20:6) It is obvious that they will be ruling over someone. If they are kings, there must also be subjects over whom they will rule. Who will these be? (Ps. 37:11, 29; Prov. 2:21, 22; Matt. 5:5; 6:10) The “great crowd” of true Christians today who will be subjects of this kingdom do not need to be born again, since their hope of everlasting life is earthly, not heavenly. (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:3, 4)
david.
Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 10 2005,17:17) Kingdom- : a politically organized community or major territorial unit having a monarchical form of government headed by a king or queen
often capitalized a : the eternal kingship of God b : the realm in which God's will is fulfilled
a : a realm or region in which something is dominant b : an area or sphere in which one holds a preeminent position. Here is your definition. So what is your point? The kingdom of God which now is, and always has been is comprised of those who are His.
Hidavid,
If you are not in the kingdom of God under Jesus you are your own king.
“Whoever wants to save his own life will lose it”
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