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Hey Nick.
I've decided to take a less argumentative stance on this forum (ie: not debating Elijah) and tell people about Jehovah and about Jehovah's Witnesses. Hence, the above post.Right, being persecuted doesn't prove you're right.
But not being persecuted in some way would indicate you're wrong.(Jesus of course said, 'If they hated me, they'll hate you,' and 'Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness sake,' etc…)
It is a part of the equation Nick. We cannot ignore Jesus words:
JOHN 13:35
“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””dave
Hi david,
Where I come from the JW's are not known for their love,… or their lack of it. They seem invisible in the community and this does not help them… unless they knock on the door. And because of this they are not often welcomed by the populace. They present another and different bible and use unfamiliar words and talk about the book of Revelation which most do not understand. They do not seem to meet people where they are in the world but in an unfamiliar and bizarre religious context. They scare them and turn them away.
Most of their effort seems futile, but they seem to tick another box in the good works book if they have got beyond page two and move on to another rejection. This is the view from the other side of the fence which perhaps you may not often hear. It is as if all they have to do is door knock but they do not expect anyone to listen.
Do you see where I am coming from? Does it help to hear these things?David, I not asking you to debate me, but I would like to see your answers to ONESPIRIT'S questions in “” the topic of How to pronounce YHWH? “” topic ??
Nick, Since you mentioned the JWs, they are not liked by the traditional religious people in the community arround here either, but I'm the ONLY ONE in my area that has even, and will even discuss the scriptures with them.
Tho. they do not like what I point out to them( The JWs), the same as the people in the community don't like what the JWs point out to them either.
Hi,
No one mentioned traditional religious people. I am speaking of the average Joe Bloggs. He needs to be accepted and respected and listened to before anyone can hope to draw him to Christ. Peter told us to always be ready to explain the hope we have to all who ask. But to ask they need to know of us and know us and know they will be treated in a friendly way, and not lectured at by strangers.Nick, Who do you think that the JWs are trying to talk to in the community when they talk to the average person?
That average person they are trying to talk to belongs to either a Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist e.t.c. when they try to talk to one of these average Joes in these communities, and these people will have nothing to do with the JWs, because these average Joes belong to either one or so of those Organizations listed above.
I have had many discussions with the JWs, and I have discussed these issues( Concerning Idolatry and many other issues) with some very prominant people in that Organization, and I understand their position and their doctrines very well, and these same Prominant people is how I aquired their N.W.T. in BOTH English and French Language, also BOTH Volumes of Insight on the Scriptures and most ALL their other booklets as well.
However, You are correct concerning those average Joes that belong to one of those Religious Organizations as I listed Above, for they do not like to be lectured with scriptures, right in the front door of their own homes either.
One example, is when I first came into contact with a JW is when I overheard one of them trying to tell a Baptist Neighbor of mine concerning their immortal soul, and the JW was trying to explain to him, that man does not have an immortal soul, but the Baptist believer, he absolutely believes that man does have an immortal soul, and the Baptist believer ordered the JW to leave off his property because of that incident.
I actually saw and heard that conflict of discussion between the JW and the Baptist believer.
Quote (Eliyah @ Sep. 27 2005,09:44) Nick, Who do you think that the JWs are trying to talk to in the community when they talk to the average person? That average person they are trying to talk to belongs to either a Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist e.t.c. when they try to talk to one of these average Joes in these communities, and these people will have nothing to do with the JWs, because these average Joes belong to either one or so of those Organizations listed above.
Hi e, This is not the USA. I would guess well over half here have no religious affiliation.Oh, I'm sorry, I never realized that.
But here in the U.S. most everyone belongs to some Religious group .
Well, yes in that case, I guess they don't want to hear a lecture, and especially right at their front door.
However, can you imagine a JW lecturing a baptist, Methodist e.t.c. here in the U.S. right in their front door?
When that happens here, there is almost always going to be a conflict, as it was I saw before.
Hi e,
Denominational religion is politics. It is sibling rivalry. It is built on men and by men. It is deception in it's many colours. People of the world are easier to reach.So you say JW's seem invisible except for their preaching work. And it's because of this going from door to door that they are disliked?
I thank you for the compliment Nick. We do try to keep ourselves without spot from the world, separate from the world. I wonder if the early Christians were well received with their message?
First off, we don't “lecture” anyone. We go to people everywhere with a Bible in hand and bring them good news. When we come to you Nick, I somehow doubt you sit there and listen to a lecture. You, like others, may slam the door in our face at any point in time. If those we approach don't want to talk about the Bible, they let us know rather quickly. I believe it was Brandon who kept asking me about “shaking the dust off your feet.” If he truly wants to understand what this means, he should go out and talk to people and be rejected and yelled at or threatened. Then, he'll know what it means to shake even the dust off your feet, or take nothing with you from that house. Leave it and the negative feelings at that house. While many people strongly dislike us coming to their house and wanting to share the Bible with them, others aren't quite so hostile. Some people actually enjoy discussing the Bible. I know that New Zealand is a far more secular country than most, with much less people going to church and much less people (clergy and laity) believing that the Bible is God's word. A lot of people in New Zealand have completely rejected religion because of what they've seen. Hence, Nick's statement above. Everything Nick has experienced in life thus far has taught him that his words are true.
Opposers of the early Christians labeled them ‘haters of mankind’ and anarchists because they would not participate in the social and political activities of the community.–On the Road to Civilization, A World History, 1937, Heckel and Sigman, pages 237, 238.
They knew that for their worship to be acceptable to God they must ‘keep themselves without spot from the world.’—Jas. 1:27.Are we to make friends of the world and be well liked Nick?
Or, are we to proclaim Jehovah's message to mankind and be disliked because of it?
JAMES 4:4
“Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.Are we to follow the example of the early Christians in their zeal for spreading the kingdom message?
As for using the book of Revelation, we use it as much as any other book.david.
Hi david,
No I did not say they were disliked because they preach. Neither do I believe separateness is meant to be physical isolationism but in not being affected by the world we live and mix in. We are meant to be the salt of the earth and the lamp on the hill. We must be in the world but not of the world.How can we expect the world to notice what good fruit we produce if the world does not see us because we isolate ourselves? Can we tell someone's fruit when they go through a set spiel at our door?I suggest it is their apparent refusal to get alongside men and walk with them that does not help their message to be effective. Popularity is not the aim but such method issues can add to the difficulties and if your were truly sincere in your efforts would you not reduce such barriers as much as possible?
Jehovah's Witnesses live in the world. We are in contact with people every day Nick. Don't imagine we isolate ourselves. And believe me when I say, people know we are Witnesses pretty quick, because a lot of things the world does, we avoid. If you want us to be a social movement and try to create a better world through politics or something like that….that wasn't Jesus way, or his disciples, was it?
While our message is not popular to most, it is “effective.” I guess it wouldn't be considered effective for those who don't want to listen to what the Bible has to say; those whose hearts and minds are closed.
I'm not sure what you mean by our “apparent refusal to get alongside men and walk with them.” We also do something called informal (or street) witnessing. So, you haven't been approached on the street yet. Try sitting in a bus next to a Witness and see where the convesation goes. I've personally walked down the street with several people talking about the Bible (mostly chinese people.)I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting we should be doing more of.
david.
Hi David,
All I am saying is -is it always the fault of the listeners if someone does not respond to your message?Why didn't you simply ask that?
In line with Scriptures, we expect very “few” to respond, so it's not as if someone is at “fault” if the listener does not respond.
JOHN 15:20-21
“Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also; if they have observed my word, they will observe YOURS also. But they will do all these things against YOU on account of my name, because they do not know him that sent me.”If someone has the right heart condition, Jehovah will draw them to him.
Hi david,
Many good and evil people are disliked. Many good and evil people are persecuted.Do you believe that door knocking and preaching the message given by the JW church saves the preacher? Do you believe that if you are faithful to this task you might be among the 144,000 of Rev 7? Jesus told his disciples to do these things so that to do so does not make one a disciple does it?
David,
What about ALL these below….
http://www.towerwatch.com/phpBB//index.php
http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/bj.htmHave you read any of these thrown out JWs people's posts?
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