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Mr. steve has just made the comment:
“The very name “Jehovah Witnesses” is out of order with the scripture.” He says that we should be witnesses of Jesus.
Yes, we are to be witnesses of Jesus. Correct.
We are also to be “disciples” (followers) of Jesus. We are copy him, imitate him.And Jesus is the “the faithful witness” and also the “faithful and true witness”
Of whom was he a witness? His Father, of course. Jesus is the foremost witness of and for Jehovah, no question.“JESUS CHRIST, THE FAITHFUL WITNESS”
With reference to Jesus Christ, the Bible states: “These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.” Of whom was he a witness? He himself said that he made his Father’s name manifest. He was the foremost witness of Jehovah.—Rev. 3:14; John 17:6. (Compare Rev 1:5; 1 Timothy 6:13)A GREAT LINE OF WITNESSES
According to the Bible, the line of witnesses of Jehovah reaches back to faithful Abel. Hebrews 11:4–12:1 says: “By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than Cain . . . By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear . . . By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance . . . By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin . . . So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.”“JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES”–OUR NAME
At first they were known only as Bible Students, but in 1931 they adopted the Scriptural name Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Isa. 43:10-12) Their beliefs and practices are not new but are a restoration of first-century Christianity, and you will find that when comparing their beliefs and their actions to the first century Christians, they are oddly similar.“Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after. . . . I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange `god' among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God.”—Isaiah 43:10, 12, American Standard Version.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have accepted their name in fulfillment of Jehovah’s promise to his covenant people at Isaiah 43:10. This does not mean, however, that they no longer follow Jesus Christ. Jesus is their Leader, the one whose pattern they follow. He himself is the leading witness of Jehovah.
A NEW TEACHING ?
Interestingly, some of the Jews asked whether the activity of Jesus Christ represented “a new teaching.” (Mark 1:27) Later, some Greeks thought the apostle Paul was introducing a “new teaching.” (Acts 17:19, 20) It was new to the ears of those who were hearing it, but the important thing was that it was the truth, in full harmony with God’s Word.Anyway, Mr steve's comments are simply wrong:
Quote The very name “Jehovah Witnesses” is out of order with the scripture.
Yes, we are witnesses of Jesus and like Jesus, of his Father, Jehovah, as well.Quote (Stu @ Feb. 15 2008,20:39) JWs are god-heads with no compassion for their fellow humans. I base this prejudice entirely on the numbers of them that die for want a simple, safe blood transfusion.
What pig-headed brutality.If only JWs would let me be. They all too often darken my door with their dark-age literature.
Deary, me.
JW's, Mormons, Avon Representatives, Insurance and Real Estate Agents darken my door with regular monotony, but I just tell them quietly that I'm not interested.
I don't get uptight, bitter and twisted, name call or stew over the fact that they interupted my peace and quiet.
Why don't you befriend the JW's that call? You could have some fascinating debates with them.
Heavens…..don't ever change your Avatar……it makes me laugh!
And great advice to Stu and anyone who is open to living at peace with other's.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 16 2008,19:59) Heavens…..don't ever change your Avatar……it makes me laugh! And great advice to Stu and anyone who is open to living at peace with other's.
Those are a male and female bird.
Can you tell which one is the female? Tim
Quote JW's, Mormons, Avon Representatives, Insurance and Real Estate Agents darken my door with regular monotony, but I just tell them quietly that I'm not interested. Not sure about the others. But I wouldn't consider the good news of the kingdom monotony.
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Quote They are also witnesses of the Watchtower
I think Nick is a little confused. The “Watchtower” is a magazine. It's full title is: “The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom.”It is the most widely distributed religious journal on the planet.
On the idea of going from house to house, which some people are bothered by,
The apostle Paul said regarding his ministry: “I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.”—Acts 20:20, 21
Notice how Christians of that time reached people with the good news: “And every day in the temple and from house to house* they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.”–Acts 5:42
(*Lit., “according to house.” Gr., kat’ oíkon. Here ka·tá is used with the accusative sing. in the distributive sense. R. C. H. Lenski, in his work The Interpretation of The Acts of the Apostles, Minneapolis (1961), made the following comment on Ac 5:42: “Never for a moment did the apostles cease their blessed work. ‘Every day’ they continued, and this openly ‘in the Temple’ where the Sanhedrin and the Temple police could see and hear them, and, of course, also κατ’ οικον, which is distributive, ‘from house to house,’ and not merely adverbial, ‘at home.’ ”)
Jesus “designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come.” These were not just to preach in public places but were also to contact people at their homes. Jesus instructed them: “Wherever you enter into a house say first, ‘May this house have peace.’”—Lu 10:1-7.
Their calls are motivated by love—first for God, also for their neighbor.
A conference of religious leaders in Spain noted this: “Perhaps [the churches] are excessively neglectful about that which precisely constitutes the greatest preoccupation of the Witnesses—the home visit, which comes within the apostolic methodology of the primitive church. While the churches, on not a few occasions, limit themselves to constructing their temples, ringing their bells to attract the people and to preaching inside their places of worship, [the Witnesses] follow the apostolic tactic of going from house to house and of taking advantage of every occasion to witness.”—El Catolicismo, Bogotá, Colombia, September 14, 1975, p. 14.
Of course, we also do “informal witnessing” or “street witnessing” or “telephone witnessing” or letter writing, or whatever may work. But the method set out by Jesus works best.Hi david,
Do you think you are fulfilling the promise relating to the great tribulation?
Why do you not just preach the gospel of Jesus Christ
instead of your denominational folly?Quote Do you think you are fulfilling the promise relating to the great tribulation?
Not sure what promise you speak of, but it seems to me, JW's are the only ones that are fulfilling this prophecy in any organized united manner:Quote MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Quote Jeremiah 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. 22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. 23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. 25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. 28 The prophet that hath a dream, F108 let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. 29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD. Quote Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report F39? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Quote how shall they preach, except they be sent? Presently, the world's largest preaching work reaching people in the most languages and the most lands with the same message is being carried out by Jehovah's Witnesses.
If God wanted one message to be heard, the same message, by people preaching the same message, I would wonder who those people are, if they are not JW's.
The Watchtower (which Nick so often mistakenly calls us) is the magazine that we are most known for. The purpose of the magazine (which is actually called: “The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom) is designed to speak of and show the need for that kingdom. To preach that kingdom. To give the good news to all that will hear. There are very few places we are not. We are presently preaching in many lands where it is illegal for us to do so. (Mormon's for example do not do that. And only 1 out of 200 are actually preaching.) I mention this because they are the only other group who make an effort to reach people in any organized manner. But we go everywhere. And the kingdom is our message.
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Hi david,
Unfortunately the message is not accurate and the timing does not fit with the tribulation.
So hold off with the boasts for now.Explain (using scriptures) what you are talking about.
“the timing does not fit with the tribulation.”
I found these words of yours in another post:
I believe the feet of Christ standing on the Mount of Olives is at the end of the tribulation when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. He comes back from the wedding feast with his bride.Thus the worldwide gospel proclamation takes place before that time starting mid tribulation when no sons of God remain on earth.
Could you explain?
Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 16 2008,23:32) Not3in1,Feb. wrote:Heavens…..don't ever change your Avatar……it makes me laugh!
quote]Those are a male and female bird.
Can you tell which one is the female? We wouldn't have to guess if the bird on the left had a tv remote in his hand.
Quote (david @ Feb. 17 2008,01:52) Quote JW's, Mormons, Avon Representatives, Insurance and Real Estate Agents darken my door with regular monotony, but I just tell them quietly that I'm not interested. Not sure about the others. But I wouldn't consider the good news of the kingdom monotony.
Heaven forbid! It's not His Word that is monotonous….but their visits (despite being told with regular monotony that we are not interested or want them to call).
God bless!
Quote (david @ Feb. 17 2008,07:28) Explain (using scriptures) what you are talking about. “the timing does not fit with the tribulation.”
Hi david,
Matt 24
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Are we in the beginning of sorrows?
Rev14
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Have you met the 144,000?
You should preach the gospel and not JW dogmas.
Quote (david @ Feb. 17 2008,01:52) {Watchtower} is the most widely distributed religious journal on the planet. On the idea of going from house to house, which some people are bothered by…explanation in original message
I have known several people who accepted the `Watchtower' when the JW's called on them (my grandmother being one). It always delivers a positive message as the JW's see it.It is these people's choice, and in some cases, their need at that time for a positive message in their lives and as long as the magazine gives them hope and makes them to pick up or buy a Bible, I think that's a good thing.
On the house-to-house `problem' the same man calls on me once a month. He knows I am a church-goer, I have told him I'm not interested in his magazines or what he has to say … but I know in a couple of weeks he'll be on my door again.
If it was a different person each time I could understand the interruption.
That's what bothers me.
Maybe he's waiting for me to yell `will you go away!' or something? Maybe I'm being to polite?
Other than that, I don't have a problem with someone wanting to spread the Word.
Quote (david @ Feb. 17 2008,07:25) Quote how shall they preach, except they be sent? Presently, the world's largest preaching work reaching people in the most languages and the most lands with the same message is being carried out by Jehovah's Witnesses.
If God wanted one message to be heard, the same message, by people preaching the same message, I would wonder who those people are, if they are not JW's.
The Watchtower (which Nick so often mistakenly calls us) is the magazine that we are most known for. The purpose of the magazine (which is actually called: “The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom) is designed to speak of and show the need for that kingdom. To preach that kingdom. To give the good news to all that will hear. There are very few places we are not. We are presently preaching in many lands where it is illegal for us to do so. (Mormon's for example do not do that. And only 1 out of 200 are actually preaching.) I mention this because they are the only other group who make an effort to reach people in any organized manner. But we go everywhere. And the kingdom is our message.
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
Hi David:There are a couple of beliefs of he JWs that you have shared with us that tell me that the JWs have not been sent by God.
First, you have shared that only the 144,000 are born again, but the scripture states:
Quote John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.Quote Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth (5723) in you.Also, the scripture states:
Quote Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:Is the JW church structured this way? If no, someone else has organized it, and not the Lord.
Quote Heaven forbid! It's not His Word that is monotonous….but their visits (despite being told with regular monotony that we are not interested or want them to call We don't know who is in your house. Perhaps someone new has moved in. If you've told us that you don't want us to ever come around, then we will only come around every year or so just to make sure that's still your stance and to make sure you're still living there.
We consider the good news important enough to make every effort to reach anyone who may be interested.Quote On the house-to-house `problem' the same man calls on me once a month. He knows I am a church-goer, I have told him I'm not interested in his magazines or what he has to say … but I know in a couple of weeks he'll be on my door again. Well, then either you live in a very very small village with a lot of witnesses or this person somehow mistakenly believes you are interested.
Quote I have told him I'm not interested in his magazines or what he has to say … but I know in a couple of weeks he'll be on my door again.
This really should not be the case. All it should take is someone saying: “Please don't call here.” and he shouldn't come back. A year or so later, someone else will come back (to see that this is still your stance and to make sure you still live there.)
And this person should be with someone else (unless you're in extremely unworked territory) and that other person should pick up on your not wanting us there….Anyway, if you want him not to come back. Tell him “put me down as a DO NOT CALL.” And even though you shouldn't have to, Ask him to mark it down in his book that way.
(I'm thinking this person is really old or you are really really nice in explaining that you're not interested.)
Quote First, you have shared that only the 144,000 are born again, but the scripture states:
Quote
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot * enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.Hi 94. This scripture does not disagree with my believe that those who make up the kingdom (heavenly government) must be born again. All this scripture says is that “unless” you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Now,while I would like to be under the kingdom of God, I don't expect to be in it, to make up that kingdom or government.Indicating that there are two groups of humans that will benefit from God’s gracious provisions are the words of the apostle Paul found at Romans 8:19-21:
“For the eager expectation of the creation [one group] is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God [another group]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”
So eventually all those benefitting because of their faith in Christ’s sacrifice will enjoy life as sons of God—144,000 who were “bought from the earth” to be in heaven and many thousands of millions who will enjoy everlasting life in an earthly paradise.—Revelation 7:4, 9; 14:3; Matthew 25:31-34.BORN AGAIN TO RULE AS KINGS
Jesus told Nicodemus that those who are “born again . . . enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3-5) What is that Kingdom? In symbolic language, early in human history, Jehovah God gave notice of his purpose to use a special “seed”—a coming ruler—to crush the head of the original Serpent, Satan the Devil. (Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:9) As revealed progressively in the Scriptures, this “seed” is identified as Jesus Christ, who reigns with co-rulers in a unique expression of God’s sovereignty, the Messianic Kingdom. (Psalm 2:8, 9; Isaiah 9:6, 7; Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14) This is the Kingdom of heaven, a government in the heavens that will vindicate Jehovah’s sovereignty and rescue mankind from bondage to sin and death.—Matthew 6:9, 10.
Associated with Jesus as corulers are 144,000 who are bought from humankind. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1-4) God has chosen some from Adam’s imperfect human family to become these “holy ones of the Supreme One,” who rule with Christ in the Messianic Kingdom. (Daniel 7:27; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 3:21; 20:6) These men and women put faith in Jesus Christ, who said that they would be “born again.” (John 3:5-7)Some scriptures to consider:
1 CORINTHIANS 15:50
“However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
1 PETER 1:23
“For YOU have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”
2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
“Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence.”
1 PETER 1:3
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
1 JOHN 3:9
“Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God.”Quote Quote
Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:Is the JW church structured this way? If no, someone else has organized it, and not the Lord.
“unity of the faith.” (vs 13) Well, that certainly points to JW's. Go anywhere in the world and you will hear the same message. This is quite uncommon.
But you're most likely referring to this:
Quote And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:While all Christians (his disciples) are commissioned to be evangelizers (mat 28:19,20), the word is used in a special way at Ephesians 4:8, 11, 12, where Paul describes “the gifts in men” that Christ gave to the congregation The specific work of such evangelizers was that of missionaries. Often these would open new fields where the good news had not been previously preached.
Yes, we certainly have such ones.
We certainly have shepherds and teachers. But they're not called “Mr. shepherd” or called a “teacher,” for one is our teacher. (Mat 23:8) But this is what they do.
And nor do we “call” anyone prophets or apostles. The most basic meaning of the word “prophet” is one who tells God's will. Usually, people associate this will his future purposes, but looking at the Bible, this is not necessarily so.
Apostle means “sent one.” Jesus sent these ones out. Paul was an apostle to the nations…. Anyway, we have many “sent out” ones, but we've never called them apostles.
The answer to your question is…yes.“He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ; in order that we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error.”—Ephesians 4:11-14.
In these verses, Paul explained that among the reasons why God made such ample spiritual provisions in the congregation are that all should ‘attain oneness in the faith and in accurate knowledge,’ become “a full-grown man,” and have the ‘measure of stature of Christ.’ Only then will we be safe from being tossed about like spiritual babes by false ideas and teachings. Thus we see the close relationship between advancing to Christian maturity and gaining gaining “oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God.”
Despite being members of 236 lands with hundreds of languages and races, Jehovah's present day witnesses are united in worship of Jehovah and have a “oneness in the faith” that I think is quite remarkable.Hi david,
Romans 8:19-21:
“For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.”Creation includes all in heaven and on earth and the seen and unseen things below God and His son. The secret mystery of Christ was something the angels longed to know about because it was hidden from all creation.
” For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”
Corruption and futility had frustrated the plan of God and Christ was the torch sent to start a fire of cleansing and restoration. Freedom of the whole of creation is the plan of God in Christ.
Your ideas that these are separate groups of men is the usual fanciful JW folly.
No one is stopping you from becoming a son of God. The door is still open.
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