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Quote (jerrymlr1 @ April 02 2007,06:50) Hello everyone, I just stumbled onto this forum and registered so I could browse and basically decide if this was a Christian forum.
David,
I had a few JWs come into my house to try to “convince me” of their beliefs. One thing that they lacked completely was “love”. How anyone can insist that Jesus is a created being and is equal to Satan (in that he is created) can only be led by a corrupted spirit himself. With that said, I would invite you to look at John 20:28, “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.”
This is as clear as it gets. All through the bible we are instructed to worship none other than God himself. Throughout the New Testament men and angels bow down and worship him. I pray that your eyes be opened to the truth. This is the very heart of Christianity. God reaching out to His creation, not some creation reaching out. Believe man!Jerry
HI jerrymlr1 WELCOMEConfidence
How come Jacob wrestled all night with a Man and when the morning Came He said I have seen the face of God? Co inheritors with Christ
The face of God is was on many waters until The many waters become the face of GodGod renders his face to so ever he desires
So whom shall I say I am say I am the I amJerry wrote:
So let me make sure that I understand correctly. All that have posted since my post believe that Jesus Christ is a created being?**********************************
Jerry, I understand you shock about finding Christians who do not believe in the Trinity. But believe me, if you look outside of your own church walls, you will find lots of “us” out here
If you look beyond the books offered at your local Christian bookstore, and look at history and other writers regarding the Trinity – you will begin to see the full picture. At least you will be well-informed about what you believe. It's hard to see the other side of the coin if you don't flip it over! I believe that Jesus is the (literal) Son of God. In that sense, yes, he is created. More correctly; he was born.
Not3in1
I seriously don't understand how this scripture can be taken in a number of ways. No disrespect intended but you sound like a polititian. This is absolutely clear in that Thomas bows down and worships Jesus and calls Him God. Angels have been worshipped and bowed down to and they CLEARLY rebuke this. Jesus CLEARLY accepted this worship after being called God. This is plain and CLEAR. Why is it that you guys spend so much effort in denying Christ. If He is God he is to be worshiped. If he is not God He is not to be worshipped. You guys are denying the #1 point of Christianity. Emmanuel= God with us. Matt 1:23Jerry wrote:
No disrespect intended but you sound like a polititian
************************
Ha, ha……Jerry, no offense taken. You will find that we are all passionate about what we believe here. I take the Politician comment as a compliment
You have some catching up to do. Maybe take a look at some of the other threads on the Thomas passages. I'm heading to bed now, but I'll check back tomorrow and see if anyone has addressed it. If not, I'll give you my take on it.
Brace yourself, Jerry. You have entered into a forum where you will be challenged. Remember……it's a good thing.
Not
I don't read other books. I don't know why, I just don't. I guess it's because there are so many deceivers with opinions to glorify themselves with their “revelations” and new ideas.
Honestly I am shocked. This has never been an issue with any Christian I know as it is the very foundation of Christianity.Oh, and Jerry, if things were as CLEAR as you pray they are……..we wouldn't have as many church denominations as we have today! Even on this forum, Trinitarians differ from one another, as do the Unitarians. Nothing is CRYSTAL CLEAR (1 Cor. 13:9).
Jerry, I'm really glad you're here. Like I said…….brace yourself. If you are not full of fear (fear is not from God), then God can speak to you through this forum. There are many men (and a few of us women folk) here who really love God and want to know him better. I've learned a lot from these brothers and sisters —- even if I don't agree with them
Goodnight all!
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 02 2007,08:42) Jerry, I'm really glad you're here. Like I said…….brace yourself. If you are not full of fear (fear is not from God), then God can speak to you through this forum. There are many men (and a few of us women folk) here who really love God and want to know him better. I've learned a lot from these brothers and sisters —- even if I don't agree with them Goodnight all!
Good night cyclone not3inoneGod bless
Charity
Hi Jeremy. As you can see, JW's aren't the only ones that realize that the trinity is a part of apostate thinking, which took several hundred years to formalize. Jesus and Paul apparently were completely unfamiliar with the trinity, as they make no mention of it.
Anyway, I believe you asked about Jesus being a created being.
Col. 1:15, 16, RS: “He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth.”
In what sense is Jesus Christ “the first-born of all creation”?
? (1) Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons.
. (2) Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?
(3) Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan′ta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan′ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.
Rev. 1:1; 3:14, RS: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him . . . ‘And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: “The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [Greek, ar·khe′] of God’s creation.”’” (KJ, Dy, CC, and NW, as well as others, read similarly.) Is that rendering correct? Some take the view that what is meant is that the Son was ‘the beginner of God’s creation,’ that he was its ‘ultimate source.’ But Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon lists “beginning” as its first meaning of ar·khe′. (Oxford, 1968, p. 252) The logical conclusion is that the one being quoted at Revelation 3:14 is a creation, the first of God’s creations, that he had a beginning. Compare Proverbs 8:22, where, as many Bible commentators agree, the Son is referred to as wisdom personified. According to RS, NE, and JB, the one there speaking is said to be “created.”)
Quote (david @ April 02 2007,09:49) (3) Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan′ta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan′ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.
David, the two Greek words that translate to the English word “other” are ALLOS (another of the same kind) and hETEROS (another of a different kind). Neither of these words are found in Colossians 1:16-17 in the original NT manuscripts. It's a Watchtower insertion that does violence to the authors intended conveyence. Literary deception, a defining characteristic of WT…..Quote Neither of these words are found in Colossians 1:16-17 in the original NT manuscripts. Sometimes that word “other” is definitely meant when it is not there, and there are several Bibles that recognize this and insert that word “other” where necessary.
(Translating Greek into English is not always a word for word process, as you know.)Check Luke 11:41,42 for example.
Quote (jerrymlr1 @ April 02 2007,08:30) Not3in1
I seriously don't understand how this scripture can be taken in a number of ways. No disrespect intended but you sound like a polititian. This is absolutely clear in that Thomas bows down and worships Jesus and calls Him God. Angels have been worshipped and bowed down to and they CLEARLY rebuke this. Jesus CLEARLY accepted this worship after being called God. This is plain and CLEAR. Why is it that you guys spend so much effort in denying Christ. If He is God he is to be worshiped. If he is not God He is not to be worshipped. You guys are denying the #1 point of Christianity. Emmanuel= God with us. Matt 1:23
jerrymlr1,
You are quite correct about John 20:28, Thomas does indeed affirm quite unequivically, that Yeshua was “his God” in that verse. I, for one, stand with Thomas….Not many others do here though. Sad but true.
Is 1:18, can you explain to our friend what the word “proskyneo” means and how it simply means in it's most basic form “to bow down” and may or may not imply worship. Can you please explain that to him.
thanks.
Quote (david @ April 02 2007,10:12) Quote Neither of these words are found in Colossians 1:16-17 in the original NT manuscripts. Sometimes that word “other” is definitely meant when it is not there, and there are several Bibles that recognize this and insert that word “other” where necessary.
(Translating Greek into English is not always a word for word process, as you know.)Check Luke 11:41,42 for example.
David,
We have been through this before. Translators will occasionally add words if it makes a passage read more smoothly (Luke 11:41,42 being a good example), but never are they entitled to do this if they change the clear meaning of a passage in its original form. If you add the word “other” to Colossians 1:16-17 then writer's plain conveyance is blatantly violated.Quote If you add the word “other” to Colossians 1:16-17 then writer's plain conveyance is blatantly violated. If you are a trinitarian it is “violated.”
If you're just a guy reading a book who understands normal logic, it has to have that word “other.”
(I should mention that in our Bible, the word “other” is in paranthesis, so you can tell it's not part of the original language. And there's a footnote explaining why it is there.)your interpretation of the 'writer's plain conveyance' is obviously flavored by your beliefs. If we follow normal logic the writers plain conveyance is obvious and although the word “other” wasn't there in Greek, there are many many times in the Bible when it's understood that …
There are several scriptures that say that 'all things' have been subjected to Jesus.
“But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.”–1 cor 15:27
Certain things are evident, because of normal logic and reasoning.
Even if 1 cor 15:27 didn't exist, I would still understand that it evident, obvious.Oh no no, you say, if it's not in the text…
Looking at the context of the rest of the Bible, it is clear that Jesus was the firstborn of creation, a part of creation and hence, created. Other scriptures make this plain too.
And as for your attack of the NWT, which you often like to do, I suppose your words apply with equal force to the other translations that insert the word “other” where it isn't originally.
Question Paul,
Which translation do you most often use?Hi David
I posted the reply to your question here because I know it isnt supposed to be in the Michael Jesus Thread. But then Im not sure it should be in here either.
Quote Questin Phoenix. Most people celebrate Christmas, halloween, easter, thanksgiving, etc. Jesus only told us to obverse one thing:
“Keep doing this in remembrance of me,” he said.
JW's the world over will be commemorating the Lord's evening meal. It is a solomn meaningful memorial, or remembrance of what Jesus did for us.
So far, you and Not3in1 have mentioned receiving this invitation.
I still find it odd that we can deliver a message to the world so quickly, the whole world.Just wondering where you live.
I live in New Zealand. It is Tuesday today. The memorial was last night.
Hi david,
Where does scripture say Jesus is created
or is using logic and inference once again enough for you to declare it as truth?
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