Jehovah&#39;s Witness Church

Participant

Quote (david @ Oct. 30 2006,00:03)

Let's start with the obvious scripture:

JOHN 3:3-5
“In answer Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is BORN AGAIN, [“Is born again.” Lit., “should be generated from above.” Gr., gen·ne·theí áno·then.] he cannot SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” Nicodémus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is BORN FROM WATER AND SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” (NWT)

John 3:5 (New International Version)
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

John 3:5 (New American Standard Bible)
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

John 3:5 (The Message)
Jesus said, “You're not listening. Let me say it again. Unless a person submits to this original creation–the “wind hovering over the water' creation, the invisible moving the visible, a baptism into a new life–it's not possible to ENTER GOD’S KINGDOM.

John 3:5 (Amplified Bible)
Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [[a]even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

John 3:5 (New Living Translation)
Jesus replied, “The truth is, no one can ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD without being born of water and the Spirit.

John 3:5 (King James Version)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

John 3:5 (English Standard Version)
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

John 3:5 (Contemporary English Version)
Jesus answered:
I tell you for certain that before you can GET INTO GOD’S KINGDOM, you must be born not only by water, but by the Spirit.

John 3:5 (21st Century King James Version)
Jesus answered, “Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

John 3:5 (Young's Literal Translation)
Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to ENTER INTO THE REIGN OF GOD;

John 3:5 (Darby Translation)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

John 3:5 (New Life Version)
Jesus answered, “For sure, I tell you, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit of God, he cannot GET INTO THE HOLY NATION OF GOD.

John 3:5 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Jesus answered, ” I assure you: Unless someone is born (A) of water and the Spirit, (B) [a] he cannot ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

John 3:5 (New International Reader's Version)
Jesus answered, “What I'm about to tell you is true. No one can ENTER GOD’S KINGDOM without being born through water and the Holy Spirit.

John 3:5 (Wycliffe New Testament)
Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to thee, but a man be born again of water, and of the Holy Ghost, he may not ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

John 3:5 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
Jesus said, `I tell you the truth. This new birth is by water and by the Spirit. No person can ENTER GOD’S KINGDOM if he has not been born that way.

So apparently, becoming born again is all about entering the kingdom of God.So, the question is: What does it mean to “enter into the kingdom of God,” “enter the kingdom of God,” “enter the reign of God,” “enter the holy nation of God,” or “enter God’s kingdom”?

That would depend on what God’s kingdom is.

david

Hi david,
before you can enter the kingdom you have to be able to see it and understand. You must be reborn from above to see the kingdom. The JWs do not see the kingdom except in prophetic terms. So they have yet to be reborn from above by water and the Spirit.
We enter the kingdom now and are given a downpayment of salvation by the evidence of the Spirit given us in power and spiritual knowledge and understanding so that we know we are among the elect.

Lk 16
16″The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. “

October 31, 2006 at 9:43 pm#31476

Participant

Hi casey,
You say
“Adam and Eve sinned hence their “spirit” died. Since then we are all in sin with a dead spirit.”
Huh? Where is this written.
If our spirit dies or leaves us we are dead full stop.

How does this teaching fit with Ecc 12?
“7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

And Jas 2
“26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”

Can the breath of God DIE?

October 31, 2006 at 9:53 pm#31478

Participant

David: My wife and kids & I are alright I guess. My kids are going from house to house to! Only they are getting candy :laugh: thought that pun might be funny. Hope it was received jokingly. My whole family has come under strep throat, bronchidus (sp?) and sever sinus infections. Texas weather is aweful. It's forty degrees (farenheight) in the morning and by the time I get off work it's 87 degrees. The extreme polars make me ill every year. My in-laws are as best can be expected with the death of my fathern-law's dad and the funeral this past Saturday. Aaron the witness who intends on meeting me again at my house (we have hit and miss over the past month with work) would like to see our discussions so I am going to paste them on a Word doc. and forward them to his e-mail. He would view this forum but he said he isn't all that great with computers. He is leaving this weekend to install the heating and ac in a kingdom hall they are building in Houston over the next three weekends. I told him about the site you sent me on the one built in six days. He wanted to see it so I am going to send him the address.

In my attempt to follow the thread it seems the topic of importance is being born again. What I had to say was brief at best. What I was saying is that Adam and Eve lost their ability to live eternally by disobeying hence we all have lost that ability. God did not create some immortal “soul” that descends or ascends upon death which we both agree. He does grant immortality to the believers in Christ or Christians who are truly born again or born from above by His Spirit. The man in Adam is stillborn spiritually. We are granted a “deposit” by God guaranteeing us the resurrection unto life eternal. We are sealed until the Day of Redemption which all creation groans for the sons of God to be revealed and when He is revelaved we will appear as He is. The pre-requisition if you will, is being born again. The majority on this discussion board as well as myself, is under the impression the JW's do not preach being born again but simply to follow Jehovah into His Son's kingdom. The process to enter this kingdom according to witnesses is to follow Jehovah and adhere to the Watchtower's doctrine. I may have not adequelty represented the witnesses view correctly but that is the jist I think.

October 31, 2006 at 10:02 pm#31480

Participant

Seeking Truth: Thank you for your prayers and blessing. Much appreciated.:)

October 31, 2006 at 10:16 pm#31482

Participant

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It's forty degrees (farenheight) in the morning and by the time I get off work it's 87 degrees. The extreme polars make me ill every year.

Yeah, I usually get sick when winter first comes too. And I have a cold now.

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Aaron the witness who intends on meeting me again at my house (we have hit and miss over the past month with work) would like to see our discussions so I am going to paste them on a Word doc. and forward them to his e-mail.

All of them? Hello Aaron.

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The majority on this discussion board as well as myself, is under the impression the JW's do not preach being born again but simply to follow Jehovah into His Son's kingdom.

We “preach” the good news of the kingdom and Christ as head of that kingdom.
We don't “preach” being born again, but as the scripture says, those who “enter” the kingdom must be born again.

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The process to enter this kingdom according to witnesses is to follow Jehovah and adhere to the Watchtower's doctrine. I may have not adequelty represented the witnesses view correctly but that is the jist I think.

Here's the thing which I keep repeating on this thread. The kingdom is a government and most on here agree. Not all need “enter the kingdom” as you say, because most will not be a part of that heavenly government. We need not be a part of that kingdom in order to benefit from it. We pray for the kingdom to come. We look to the kingdom. We preach the kingdom. But not all of us will be a part of that kingdom or be rulers in that kingdom. In the States, not everyone lives in Washington, not everyone is a politician, not everyone is in government, not everyone is a ruler. Yet, all are ruled over and benefit from the law. When you said this: “ all creation groans for the sons of God to be revealed ” you alluded to this scripture:
ROMANS 8:19
“For the eager expectation of the creation [one group] is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God [another group].”
We don't all have to be rulers, or judges or priests. For a ruler to rule, he needs someone to rule over. For a judge, the same. For a priest the same.

I'll post more on being born again in the future.

david

October 31, 2006 at 10:19 pm#31483

Participant

Hi Casey, looking back, you said:

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WE are the priests and kings, not a mere select few.

Then my question to you is a simple one:

If all are kings, who do they rule over? If all are judges, whom do they judge? If all priests….?

November 1, 2006 at 3:45 am#31497

942767

Participant

David:

Are you saying that a person can be a Christian without being born again?

November 1, 2006 at 6:29 pm#31508

Participant

David:

All through the NT we see people being born again in all the Churches, for Paul even says, “IF the Spirit resides in you.” You stated that the JW's are the only group fulfilling the “Great Commission”. Let's look at what the Apostles did after the ascension:

They were all together in one accord praying and waiting for the Promise Jesus spoke of. When the Spirit descended they spoke in other languages and were baptized into the Spirit of God and were at that moment reborn. That is not a particular example however. If you read all through the beginnings of the Church or Christians, you find the same thing in Acts. What was preached of the Apostles was the fulfillment of the OT in Yeshua Messiah. He is the beginning and the end of all prophecies. His kingdom is not of the Earth. The entrance that was preached into this Kingdom made without human hands is done through being born again. When the people received the message and were convicted and pricked in the consciences they immediately obeyed that message which was to be baptized in immersion for the remission of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit…which DID manifest in some sort of way that could be seen by others as coming from God. You never see the Apostles preaching to submit to Jehovah and obey His commandments in order to have a “chance” to live in a paradise restored Earth. You see them preaching repentance, baptism, receiving the Spirit. If one does not have the Spirit of God and has not obeyed this Gospel of being baptized into Christ one will indeed not have any chance to enter ANY kingdom aside from the Kingdom of darkness which Satan rules. If you read the book of Acts from first to last (27 chapters I think at the top of my head?) you will find the SAME message and never is that message what the JW's bring. The epistles were written for those that have already been baptized in Christ hence being born again, however the authors were not ignorant to think that all that had the letter read to them were born of God so you sometimes see in the epistles a recap of what had already been preached. Yet, the authors did take the view presuming most of the wheat were in the Churches that had already been established and admonishings, edifying words, encouragement, doctrine and leadership were dictated. Again though if you read the epistles you find no message of a kingdom that Jesus is going to set up on earth. Even if you take the premillenial position and believe that precept you would be hard pressed to find to see anything remotely close to what is proclaimed in Watchtower literature.
I was reading the latest publication (@2005) and found something I thought was of interest in what you and I have discussed before. Before I said that I was counting all the times Jehovah was mentioned and the number of times Jesus was mentioned and found them to be tied within three to five pages. What I ignorantly did not pay attention to was I was reading a chapter that spoke of Jesus. The rest of the booklet almost entirely quoted OT passages attempting to show how to serve Jehovah and please Him. The booklet speaks of Job and Abraham and how they pleased God hence becoming His friend. However the NT shows that Christ's sacrifice and faith in Him alone is what saves bringing about a New Birth from the Spirit of God. The emphasis of Jesus is manifold through the NT having almost unilaterally prophetic references made to His coming in the OT. Paul In Ephesians 1 and John Chapter 1 almost go into a euphoric description of the Word made flesh and all things with, from and for unto Him Name. The Watchtower's emphasis however is almost to the neglect of Jesus. Jesus proclaimed the very Words of God BEING the very Word of God tabernacled in the flesh. A witness who came to my apt once when I showed him numerous references regarding our future in heaven stated, “the majority of the NT is written specifically to the anointed (144,000). I felt sorry for them. They could not read the NT without wondering if the wonderful things written thereof pertain to them.

Now the final inquiry that all of us have asked of you in which I think we all feel that question has at best been avoided. Are you or any JW born again?

November 1, 2006 at 7:07 pm#31511

Participant

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David:

Are you saying that a person can be a Christian without being born again?

I am saying only what the scripture says:

November 1, 2006 at 7:45 pm#31512

Participant

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All through the NT we see people being born again in all the Churches

Yes Casey. It seems a great deal of people were born again back then.

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The entrance that was preached into this Kingdom made without human hands is done through being born again.

I agree.

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If one does not have the Spirit of God and has not obeyed this Gospel of being baptized into Christ one will indeed not have any chance to enter ANY kingdom

Again, I agree. Yout must be born again to enter the kingdom.

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Again though if you read the epistles you find no message of a kingdom that Jesus is going to set up on earth.

Right, the kingdom is heavenly, although most on here seem to think it will be on the earth.

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Before I said that I was counting all the times Jehovah was mentioned and the number of times Jesus was mentioned and found them to be tied within three to five pages. What I ignorantly did not pay attention to was I was reading a chapter that spoke of Jesus. The rest of the booklet almost entirely quoted OT passages attempting to show how to serve Jehovah and please Him.

You tend to look at little samples of a much larger picture, like with the 2 out of 5 annointed that visited you. It's a small sample and doesn't reflect the whole.
I did a search. It's a 2:1 ratio almost exactly in our publications. Not just in one article or magazine but as a whole.

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The Watchtower's emphasis however is almost to the neglect of Jesus.

There's no way to say this except, you're wrong. I've done the math. You've looked at one magazine. Yes, sometimes certain things are focused on. If a person looks at a magazine on marriage, he may falsely conclude that all we discuss is marriage. Such thinking is folly. Would you like the exact numbers again? I've given them to you once on this forum already. I had thought it was someone else, when you brought it up a second time, but it was you and this is the third time. I know you're trying to make some kind of point, but it is based in error. The math is clear and irrefutable.

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A witness who came to my apt once when I showed him numerous references regarding our future in heaven stated, “the majority of the NT is written specifically to the anointed (144,000). I felt sorry for them. They could not read the NT without wondering if the wonderful things written thereof pertain to them.

Look at the beginning of most of the letters. They are often specifically mentioned as being the ones those letters are written to, the holy ones.

There is another thread that discusses the holy ones (saints) that has recently gotten some interest. I believe seekingtruth and definitely kenrch both believe that there seems to be a distinction between these holy ones and the rest. Please visit that thread and see my comments and that of others. I have put down some scriptures there explaining.

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Are you or any JW born again?

Yes, there are those who are born from water and spirit for the purpose of entering the kingdom of God.
These are the 144,000 (and Jesus) made up a lot of as you show, those of the first century and stretching to our time. These are the only ones that need to be born again.

The first man, Adam, was created a perfect human son of God. (Luke 3:38) Jehovah God never intended that Adam should die. (Question: Would Adam ever have to be born again?) Adam and his wife, Eve, had the prospect of producing a sinless human family that would live forever and fill a paradise earth. (Genesis 1:28) Death was not part of God’s original purpose for man and woman. It invaded the human scene only as a result of rebellion against divine law.—Genesis 2:15-17; 3:17-19.
This rebellion raised huge moral issues, such as the rightfulness of God’s sovereignty and the ability of humans to remain faithful to his laws. Time would be needed to settle these issues. But Jehovah God’s purpose for mankind did not change, and he cannot fail in what he sets out to do. He fully intends to fill the earth with a perfect human family that will enjoy everlasting life in Paradise. (Psalm 37:29; 104:5; Isaiah 45:18; Luke 23:43)
We must keep this fundamental truth in mind when we consider Jesus’ words about being born again.
Indicating that there are two groups of humans that will benefit from God’s gracious provisions are the words of the apostle Paul found at Romans 8:19-21:
“For the eager expectation of the creation [one group] is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God [another group]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”

BORN AGAIN TO RULE AS KINGS
Jesus told Nicodemus that those who are are “born again . . . enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3-5) What is that Kingdom? In symbolic language, early in human history, Jehovah God gave notice of his purpose to use a special “seed”—a coming ruler—to crush the head of the original Serpent, Satan the Devil. (Genesis 3:15; Revelation 12:9) As revealed progressively in the Scriptures, this “seed” is identified as Jesus Christ, who reigns with co-rulers in a unique expression of God’s sovereignty, the Messianic Kingdom. (Psalm 2:8, 9; Isaiah 9:6, 7; Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14) This is the Kingdom of heaven, a government in the heavens that will vindicate Jehovah’s sovereignty and rescue mankind from bondage to sin and death.—Matthew 6:9, 10.
Associated with Jesus as corulers are 144,000 who are bought from humankind. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1-4) God has chosen some from Adam’s imperfect human family to become these “holy ones of the Supreme One,” who rule with Christ in the Messianic Kingdom. (Daniel 7:27; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 3:21; 20:6) These men and women put faith in Jesus Christ, who said that they would be “born again.” (John 3:5-7)

GOD’S PURPOSE FOR MANKIND
2 PETER 3:13
“But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”
M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122) comments: “In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth si
gnify a new government, new kingdom, new people.”
Christ Jesus became “higher than the heavens” (Heb 7:26) in that he was thereby placed “far above every government and authority and power and lordship . . . not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”—Eph 1:19-21; Mt 28:18.
Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Eph 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4; Col 1:5; compare Joh 14:2, 3.) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Heb 12:20-23; Php 3:20) They form the “New Jerusalem” seen in John’s vision as “coming down out of heaven from God.” (Re 21:2, 9, 10; compare Eph 5:24-27.) Since this vision is initially stated to be of “a new heaven and a new earth” (Re 21:1), it follows that both are represented in what is thereafter described. Hence the “new heaven” must correspond to Christ together with his “bride,” the “New Jerusalem,” and the “new earth” is seen in the ‘peoples of mankind’ who are their subjects and who receive the blessings of their rule, as depicted in verses 3 and 4.
EPHESIANS 1:10
“for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,”

I find that what people mean by “born again” is not always the same. But usually people that believe they are born again believe they someday expect to be with Christ in heaven. Yet, they don’t often care or wonder what they will be doing there. Being born again involves much more than accepting Jesus as our Savior. When Jesus spoke about being born again he said that it was necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, to be part of God’s Kingdom, his heavenly government. (John 3:5) Those who are born again will be kings and priests, ruling with Christ. (Rev. 20:6; 5:9, 10) Jesus said that these would be just a “little flock.” (Luke 12:32) If they are kings, there must also be subjects over whom they will rule. Who will these be? The Bible also shows that many people who do the will of God will live here on earth, as happy subjects of that Kingdom. (Matt. 6:10; Ps. 37:11, 29; Prov. 2:21, 22)
The Bible cautions all of us not to be overconfident of our position. We need to keep examining ourselves to be sure that we are really doing what God and Christ require of us. (1 Cor. 10:12) What responsibility did Jesus lay upon his true disciples? (Matt. 28:19, 20; 1 Cor. 9:16) While many claim to be born again, there is only one group who are unitedly carrying out Jesus command worldwide.

Here's some scriptures that are running through my mind, concerning the need to be born again and being born again:
1 CORINTHIANS 15:50
“However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
1 PETER 1:23
“For YOU have been given a new birth, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”
2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
“Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! new things have come into existence.”
1 PETER 1:3
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
1 JOHN 3:9
“Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God.”

Going back to John 3:5, the question I have asked is:
What does it mean to “enter into the kingdom of God,” “enter the kingdom of God,” “enter the reign of God,” “enter the holy nation of God,” or “enter God’s kingdom”?
Because that is why some have to be born again. You can't enter the kingdom unless you are born again. So what does it mean to enter the kingdom?

That would depend on what God’s kingdom is.
Jesus’ disciples understood the Kingdom to be an actual government of God, though they did not comprehend the reach of its domain. Nathanael said to Jesus: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” (Joh 1:49) They knew the things foretold about “the holy ones” in the prophecy of Daniel. (Da 7:18, 27) Jesus directly promised his apostolic followers that they would occupy “thrones.” (Mt 19:28) James and John sought certain privileged positions in the Messianic government, and Jesus acknowledged that there would be such privileged positions, but he stated that the assigning of these rested with his Father, the Sovereign Ruler. (Mt 20:20-23; Mr 10:35-40) So, whereas his disciples mistakenly limited Messiah’s kingly rule to earth and specifically to fleshly Israel, even doing so on the day of the resurrected Jesus’ ascension (Ac 1:6), they correctly understood that it referred to a governmental arrangement.—Compare Mt 21:5; Mr 11:7-10.
So, as I believe several people on here agree, GOD’S KINGDOM IS A HEAVENLY GOVERNMENT.
So back to that scripture, what does it mean to enter into God’s heavenly Government?
While many disagree with me, I believe that rulers have subjects. I believe that those who make up the government don’t represent everyone, but are to rule and judge and serve as priests over them. And this is what the Bible says.

Where many differ in thought with me is that many believe that God still favors fleshly Israel, whereas I believe that:
THE KINGDOM IS TAKEN AND GIVEN INSTEAD TO A NATION PRODUCING FRUITS

MATTHEW 21:43
“This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you [“the chief priests and the older men of the people,” vs 23] and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”
MATTHEW 23:37-38
““Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. Look! YOUR house [the temple] is abandoned to YOU.”

He thereby indicated that soon God would no longer accept the form of worship practiced at the typical temple in Jerusalem.
When his disciples pointed out to Jesus the magnificent temple buildings, he said: “Do you not behold all these things? . . . By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”—Matthew 24:1, 2.

When Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem and its temple, that provided dramatic proof that God had indeed abandoned his typical house. Jesus never foretold the rebuilding of another temple in Jerusalem. Regarding that earthly city, the apostle Paul wrote to Hebrew Christians: “We do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.” (Hebrews 13:14) Early Christians looked forward to becoming part of “heavenly Jerusalem”—the citylike Kingdom of God. (Hebrews 12:22)

Forty days after Jesus’ resurrection he ascended back to heaven and 10 days later, on the day of Pentecost, he poured out the holy spirit upon his disciples waiting in earthly Jerusalem. With that event a new Jerusalem, a heavenly Jerusalem, became their mother. As regards this, the Christian apostle Paul wrote in his letter to the congregations in Galatia: “The Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.” (Gal. 4:26) Later on, when writing to Hebrew Christians in general, the same apostle wrote:
“But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God,
heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all.” (Heb. 12:22, 23)
This could actually be it’s own subject. But as Jesus said to the priests and older men of the Jewish people: “The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing it’s fruits.” I think that's plain enough.

Some more scriptures I'd just like to get down about being born from the spirit:
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE BORN FROM SPIRIT?
MATTHEW 3:11
“I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.”
JOHN 1:33
“Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining, this is the one that baptizes in holy spirit.’”
ACTS 1:5
“because John, indeed, baptized with water, but YOU will be baptized in holy spirit not many days after this.””
ACTS 10:45
“And the faithful ones that had come with Peter who were of those circumcised were amazed, because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations.”
ACTS 11:16
“At this I called to mind the saying of the Lord, how he used to say, ‘John, for his part, baptized with water, but YOU will be baptized in holy spirit.’”
ACTS 19:6
“And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the holy spirit came upon them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”
1 CORINTHIANS 12:13
“For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.”

Salvation is open to just as many people as will demonstrate true faith in the provision that God has made through Jesus. But a careful study of God’s Word and Christ’s teachings shows that only a limited number share the privilege of being born again, born ‘from water and from spirit,’ thus to share heavenly rulership with Christ. (John 3:3-5; Romans 8:16, 17; Revelation 14:1-3) The Bible says that only 144,000 will go to heaven to be with Christ. (Revelation 14:1, 3) What will they do in heaven? (Rev. 20:6) It is obvious that they will be ruling over someone. If they are kings, there must also be subjects over whom they will rule. Who will these be? . . . (Ps. 37:11, 29; Prov. 2:21, 22; Matt. 5:5; 6:10) The “great crowd” of true Christians today who will be subjects of this kingdom do not need to be born again, since their hope of everlasting life is earthly, not heavenly. (2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:3, 4)

Why is it necessary for any Christians to be “born again”?

God has purposed to associate a limited number of faithful humans with Jesus Christ in the heavenly Kingdom
Luke 12:32: “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”
Rev. 14:1-3: “I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”

Humans cannot go to heaven with bodies of flesh and blood
1 Cor. 15:50: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
John 3:6: “What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.” (So, those who make up the kingdom (divinely instituted government with Christ and his associate rulers would have to be “born from the spirit,” to inherit the heavenly kingdom.)

Only persons who have been “born again,” thus becoming God’s sons, can share in the heavenly Kingdom

John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus Christ], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (“As many as did receive him” does not mean all humans who have put faith in Christ. Notice who is being referred to, as indicated by verse 11 [“his own people,” the Jews]. The same privilege has been extended to others of mankind, but only to a “little flock.”)
Rom. 8:16, 17: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”
1 Pet. 1:3, 4: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”

What will they do in heaven?
Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”
1 Cor. 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

Can a person who is not “born again” be saved?
Rev. 7:9, 10, 17: “After these things [after the apostle John heard the number of those who would be “born again,” those who would make up spiritual Israel and would be with Christ in heaven; compare Romans 2:28, 29 and Galatians 3:26-29] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: ‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’ . . . ‘The Lamb [Jesus Christ], who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.’”
After listing many pre-Christian persons of faith, Hebrews 11:39, 40 says: “All these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us, in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Who are here meant by “us”? Hebrews 3:1 shows that they are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” The pre-Christian persons who had faith, then, must have a hope for perfect life somewhere other than in heaven.)Ps. 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”
Rev. 21:3, 4: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Is it possible for a person to have God’s spirit and yet not be “born again”?

Regarding John the baptizer, Jehovah’s angel said: “He will be filled with holy spirit right from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) And Jesus later said “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is [Why? Because John will not be in the heavens and so there was no need for him to be “born again”]. But from the days of John the Baptist until now [when Jesus stated this] the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press.”—Matt. 11:11, 12.

The spirit of Jehovah was “operative” upon David and “spoke” by him (1 Sam. 16:13;
2 Sam. 23:2), but nowhere does the Bible say that he was “born again.” There was no need for him to be “born again,” because, as Acts 2:34 says: “David did not ascend to the heavens.”
It was not until the new covenant….
LUKE 22:28-29
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,” (Compare Heb 8:6,13; Jer 31:31-34)

Jesus made “a covenant . . . for a kingdom” with this group. In effect, Jesus contracted with this “little flock” for them to rule with him in heaven as the secondary part of the seed of Abraham.

LUKE 12:32
““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”
The new covenant was to be inaugurated with the blood of the appropriate sacrifice and with a new nation, spiritual Israel. (Hebrews 8:5, 6; 9:15-22) When exactly did this new covenant take effect? An important feature of the Law was the high priest’s going into the Most Holy once each year. That pictured Jesus’ resurrection to the heavens. There, in the presence of God, he, as Mediator of the new covenant, could present the value of his ransom sacrifice. (Hebrews 9:23, 24) This opened the way for a new covenant to be inaugurated in fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34. The new covenant went into effect when Jehovah ACTED upon his acceptance of the ransom sacrifice. He poured out his holy spirit upon the faithful disciples of Jesus to bring into existence a new nation, spiritual Israel, composed of those in the covenant for the Kingdom. (Luke 22:29; Acts 2:1-4)
This covenant between Christ and his associate kings remains forever operative.—Revelation 22:5.

Does this mean then that in order to gain God’s favor, everyone must be “born again”? Not at all. Jesus’ sacrifice covers more than the 144,000 persons who have been specially chosen to be with him in the heavens. When the apostle John wrote to “born again” Christians toward the end of the first century, he said regarding the sacrifice of Jesus: “HE IS A PROPITIATORY SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, YET NOT FOR OURS ONLY BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD’S.” (1 John 2:2) How is this so?
Those who are “born again” will rule with Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom to bring benefits to others of mankind who will live on earth. This was foretold in a remarkable promise made to Jesus’ forefather Abraham almost 4,000 years ago. “BY MEANS OF YOUR SEED ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH WILL CERTAINLY BLESS THEMSELVES,” Jehovah told Abraham. (Genesis 22:18) Yes, great blessings were to be made available to all nations through Abraham’s “seed”!
Who was that “seed”? Jesus Christ, joined by his genuine “born again” followers. The apostle Paul explains: “MOREOVER, IF YOU BELONG TO CHRIST, YOU ARE REALLY ABRAHAM’S SEED.” (Galatians 3:16, 29)
And what are the blessings that come to people of all nations through Jesus Christ and these “born again” disciples? The privilege of being restored to God’s favor and enjoying all his provisions for a paradise earth.—Genesis 1:27, 28; Psalm 37:29; Proverbs 2:21, 22; Isaiah 45:18.
So the 144,000 “born again” disciples will “enter into the [heavenly] kingdom of God” to administer the marvelous blessings that God’s Kingdom will bring to untold millions right here on the earth. (Matthew 6:10; Romans 8:19-21; Revelation 21:1-5)

I think that's enough for now.

Must everyone be “born again” to gain God’s favor?
No. You must be born again to be a part of the “little flock” who the “Father has approved of giving” “the kingdom,” or God’s government. (Luke 12:32) This kingdom will bestow blessings on the “other sheep.” (John 10:16)

I guess here's some more scriptures I want to include:
MATTHEW 25:31
““When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.”
MATTHEW 19:28
“Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Compare Luke 22:30)
MATTHEW 20:21
“He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.””
1 CORINTHIANS 6:2
“Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world?
REVELATION 1:6
“and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”
REVELATION 3:21
“To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. . . .And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
2 TIMOTHY 2:12
“if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us;”
MATTHEW 22:14
““For there are many invited, but few chosen.””
PSALM 72:8
“And he will have subjects from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of the earth.” (Kings have subjects)

1 CORINTHIANS 4:8
“YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.”
LUKE 22:28-29
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,”
JAMES 2:5
“Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?”
1 CORINTHIANS 6:1-2
“Does anyone of YOU that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters?

**
LUKE 12:32
““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”
JOHN 10:16
““And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”

JESUS AND HOLY ONES RECEIVE THE KINGDOM
DANIEL 7:14
“And to him [Jesus] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.”
DANIEL 7:18
“But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’”
DANIEL 7:21-22
““I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”

Casey, I am wondering who you and everyone else, as kings will rule over? I think I've asked you this before. I've asked many this before.

david.

Although all the things
I put down above are related, they are not necessarily all that organized. I really don't have the time right now, but wanted to leave you with the scritpures or some of the scriptures I think need to be discussed.

November 1, 2006 at 7:47 pm#31513

Participant

Hi david,
You have quoted this scripture several times without clarifying what it means to you as a JW. Can you do this for us please?

November 1, 2006 at 9:16 pm#31518

Participant

David: That is a lot of information to sift through. I read it but I will break it down later when I have time. Here are a few questions I have that went through my head as I was reading it.

1) How can 144,000 mentioned once or twice in Revelation be read into the whole of Scripture? If these few in number were so important that the entire plethora of Scripture would be written for, then how come this number is not emphasied time and again? It seems to me that if Mathew, John Mark, Luke the Physician, John the Apostle, Paul, Peter, James and Jude written their letters specifically to this 144,000 alone, this number would be reiterated time and time again. However that is not what we find. We find this number mentioned only a few times in the last book of the Scriptures; a time in which ALL of the previous episltes had been sent out and distributed. Again, it would seem that if these authors of the scriptures were specifically focusing on a few, a very SLIM few (if there would be 144,000 alone) they would almost be YELLING for this small number to submit. However according to the NT authors if this 144,000 were the only ones to receive this heavenly kingdom, they believed this small number was already met since they spoke of Christ coming at that time as emminent. But that time came and went…and here we are 2000 years later.

2) If the Kingdom Message that the witnesses proclaim was the intended message from the beginning, then how come Peter, John, Paul…etc,etc preached the requirements to be born again which you deem as only a “small flock”? What happen to us “great number” from all over the nations? Do we not get to hear this awesome message about this earthly kingdom? If so then how come some sort of “guidlines” or adherences to follow were not distributed? That would make me feel very unloved and left out.

November 2, 2006 at 2:01 am#31540

Participant

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You have quoted this scripture several times without clarifying what it means to you as a JW. Can you do this for us please?

HI Nick.

In true Nick fashion, I will not answer your question, but ask another, and a very similar one to yours:
You have repeatedly and quite a bit more than I mentioned the importance of being born again. Oxy said that this required belief in Jesus and an experience. What is your experience? Your born again experience?

david

November 2, 2006 at 2:08 am#31543

Participant

Hi david,
I wrote about it in another thread two days ago. So as for you?

November 2, 2006 at 2:37 am#31545

Participant

Casey, in regards to question 1,

The Greek word (a·po·ka′ly·psis) “revelation” denotes “an uncovering” or a revealing or a disclosure.
A lot was revealed in that book.
Concerning the revelation of “the sacred secret,” the apostle Paul wrote:
“In other generations this secret was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, namely, that people of the nations should be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise in union with Christ Jesus through the good news.”—Eph 3:1-6; Ro 16:25.

Wow! What a revelation! That people of the nations, people of THE NATIONS, should be joint heirs and actually fellow members of the body.

There is a theme that runs through the Bible. I believe that theme is God's kingdom and specifically the “seed” who would be ruler of that kingdom, Christ Jesus. If you look in the first chapters of Genesis, you find mention of that seed, but we aren't given everything at once. Slowly, we learn more and more of this sacred secret, this mystery. It is not revealed all at once. Some things were left to be disclosed or revealed in the book of Revelation. That is what the word means after all.

Quote

However according to the NT authors if this 144,000 were the only ones to receive this heavenly kingdom, they believed this small number was already met since they spoke of Christ coming at that time as emminent.

ACTS 1:6-8
“When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction; but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.””
The disciples asked if the kingdom was being restored to Israel at this time. They were in eager expectation of it, but their timing was off by thousands of years. And they would have to be witnesses of Jesus (and Jehovah too of course) to the most distant part of the earth. That would require time.

Anyway, my point is, they might have thought that the kingdom was about to be “restored to Israel” but they were wrong. They were still had some fleshly thinking to abandon.

So your saying: they believed this small number was already met since they spoke of Christ coming at that time as emminent. is based on the false belief that Christ's coming was imminent at that time. Nowhere does scripture say that they believed that this number was met in the first century.

As you say:

Quote

But that time came and went…and here we are 2000 years later.

Perhaps they were false prophets. No, they had some wrong expecations, but they were not false prophets.
LUKE 19:11
“While they were listening to these things he spoke in addition an illustration, because he was near Jerusalem and they were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly.”

On point 2,
When Jesus proclaimed the kingdom his message was: 'Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.' He was the king of that kingdom.
His disiples were to deliver the same message. (Mat 10:16)
How could he say that? Because he himself was to be the King of that Kingdom. His presence there showed its nearness.

Jesus also showed that through him the way was being opened for others to share in that Kingdom. He identified the qualities that must be demonstrated by those who would be given that privilege.
Because most people rejected Jesus as the Messiah and the anointed King of God’s Kingdom, Jesus said to them:
“The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”—Matthew 4:23; 21:43; 23:13; Luke 11:52.

Anyway, they and Jesus had been preaching that the kingdom had drawn near. It was their message.
However, it is not reported that after Jesus’ death the disciples proclaimed the Kingdom as having “drawn near” or as being at hand. Rather, the good news they preached was that after Jesus had laid down his life as the ransom price for salvation, he ascended to heaven and was then sitting at God’s right hand. They also preached about Jesus’ return at a later time and his Kingdom to come.—Heb 10:12, 13; 2Ti 4:1; Re 11:15; 12:10; 22:20; compare Lu 19:12, 15; Mt 25:31.

You say:

Quote

If the Kingdom Message that the witnesses proclaim was the intended message from the beginning, then how come Peter, John, Paul…etc,etc preached the requirements to be born again which you deem as only a “small flock”?

Out of curiosity, which scriptures are you referring to when you say that Peter, John, Paul, etc preached the requirments to be born again? I know there are scriptures that speak of being born again. I'm curious which requirements you're speaking of.
What I do know that Bible says is that to enter the kingdom of God, one must be born again.

I have asked you a few times and others who the rulers who rule will be ruling. Who they will be judging? I am curious to your responce.

david

November 2, 2006 at 2:37 am#31546

Participant

Quote

I wrote about it in another thread two days ago. So as for you?

I must have missed it. Which thread?

November 2, 2006 at 5:40 am#31553

seekingtruth

Participant

David,
I have given a lot of thought and prayer to the JW's especially since joining this forum. You are gifted and represent them with enthusiasm and sincerity. Reading your posts I've found that the JW's are to be commended for their zeal as well as basing their doctrine on their interpretation of scripture. But, (I know you knew this was coming) the following are some of my concerns:

Interpretations of various scriptures- I dis-agree with some of the JW interpretations (of course that does not make me right and them wrong)

Exclusivity – I feel the JW's demand conformity, there is a difference between unity within diversity and conforming. The body is made up of different parts working together (or should be) but the JW's seem to require that the whole body be mouths or feet or whatever analogy would best fit. While I do believe that we are to conform to the image of Christ it seems the JW's require more of a conforming to a JW then to Christ. Furthermore with all God has done in my life you would have me believe I'm unsaved?

Not of this world – the JW's seem to take pride in being hated, and true Christians will be, but I feel that the JW's make it a self fulfilling prophecy with attitudes, and presentations.

Over emphasize of ideas which are poorly supported or unable to be proven – Christ died on a stake instead of a cross, Birthdays (what is it with that anyway?), etc.

Unfortunately it seems to me that the JW's share some of the same tendencies as the Pharisee from the time of Jesus. At least from the outside looking in it appears that the JW's put more trust in their ability to follow the JW doctrine then in the One for whom the doctrine is intended. This in turn leads to love being replaced with arrogance

David, I know that I could be the one that's wrong, but as long as I keep seeking, God will lead me by His Spirit into all truth. But, to be able to receive a further understanding of truth, you usually have to be prepared to set aside a currently held belief. I pray we're both up to the task.

November 2, 2006 at 6:17 am#31558

Participant

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You are gifted and represent them with enthusiasm and sincerity.

I am nothing and have presented them pitifully. (I think when I speak with you, feelings of humility cannot help but rub off.)

Quote

Furthermore with all God has done in my life you would have me believe I'm unsaved?

I would never say that to you. But then again, I would never say that to the pope either, or anyone. I don't decide if you are “saved” and really he who has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. I don't hold to the once saved always saved doctrine.

Quote

Not of this world – the JW's seem to take pride in being hated, and true Christians will be, but I feel that the JW's make it a self fulfilling prophecy with attitudes, and presentations.

“The principal victims of religious persecution in the United States in the twentieth century were the Jehovah’s Witnesses,” says the book The Court and the Constitution, by Archibald Cox (1987).

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with our history. Perhaps you don't realize that Jehovah's Witnesses speak to people about the Bible in countries where this is illegal despite what happens to them. (acts 5:29; mat 28:19,20)
We do not take part in politics, wars, or other worldly things and so many governments look at us hostily, as subversive. This is not imagination. I live in Canada. How many religions were banned when we went to war? Which churches did the govenment go to and lock the doors? Were the Catholics or Protestants banned from talking to people about the Bible? Or were Jehovah's Witnesses? From what I've read, only the Witnesses.

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Over emphasize of ideas which are poorly supported or unable to be proven – Christ died on a stake instead of a cross, Birthdays (what is it with that anyway?), etc.

You being on this forum do not have an accurate view of what emphasis we place on these things. Almost none. The things on this forum that are mentioned quite a bit are the things that people who want to disagree with us bring up quite a bit. I do think both the cross and birthdays are things that I innitiated though. But that's because years back, they are both things that I studied extensively. I don't know if you remember me talking about going to my grandma in tears, but one of the things I went there to do was to tell her I don't celebrate birthdays anymore. Believe me that I put a lot of thought and research into that–looking at the early Christians, the Bible and the history of birthdays.

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This in turn leads to love being replaced with arrogance

It is true, I certainly do not come off as well as you. You ooze humilty a lot of the time. I put so much down on here, that I often forget I am speaking to people. I should without question work on my demeaner on this forum.

November 2, 2006 at 6:38 am#31560