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Quote (david @ Oct. 27 2006,03:11) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA6G1hqayiM This is a quick build of a kingdom hall in time lapse. I post this only because we had been talking about it a few days ago.
david.
Can you answer my question please David.. are you born again?Wow David that quick lapse kingdom hall build was great! I have never seen that many number of people building a structure asside for an office building or skyscraper. How you got them all to chip in is beyond me and it was done from sun up to sun down consistantly. Pretty neat. 6 days! I still can't get over it. It was just something you don't see everyday. You witnesses are like ants in this world!
By the way, the little mishap on the quotations was hilarious
the timing has to reveal that God has a sense of humor. Kind of let me know He's been paying attention to the thread 
David: I have been thinking about some things. In regards to the disfellowshipping you mentioned the Sanhedrin and the expulsion of Jews from the synagogues. However Jesus rebuked the religious hierarchy as hypocrites more than any other people. Aside from these individuals and Scribes he only rebuked the ones who would not repent. The Old Testament prophecies the Israelites were not taken care of by their Shepherds and when Jesus came he had compassion on the people because they were like sheep wandering around without a Shepherd. A lot of these people had been “kicked out” of the synagogue for being “sinners” and the very ones that were deemed as sinners… tax-collectors, prostitutes, drunkards and so forth…were the very people who heeded Jesus word because He had love, mercy and kindness on them. He asked the religious leaders of the day, “go and learn what this means… ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Later he acknowledged that apparently time went by from that rebuke and they still had not practiced it since He then said, “IF you had learned what this meant…” What I am saying is most people “evicted” from the synagogue felt they were out of fellowship with God because they had been removed from the “congregation” which when Jesus came he specifically mentioned in no other certain terms, “Soon the time will come and is come that the worshippers of God will worship Him in Spirit and Truth…” Prior to that statement He made sure the Samaritan woman would understand that there was no ONE PLACE or ONE LOCATION that the Father held to as the ONLY means to approach Him.
Later Paul emphasizes that we are indeed ONE body full of various personalities living in various regions. As I said before, this ONE body was spread about throughout the major cities and surrounding suburbs if you will. These letters sent to these cities where the major point of contact would have been gathered were read and then dispersed to the other individual congregations. So when Paul, Peter, James, John (Jesus) sent these letters to Ephesus, Thessalonica, Galatia, Capadocia, Corinth and seven cities in Revelation they were intended to be read to ALL the Churches (congregations). What I am getting at is there was not ONE group that believes the SAME thing. Paul had to rebuke the Thessalonians for worshipping angels, Corinth for believing false “apostles”, Galatia for adding works as means of salvation added to Grace…Peter admonished believers in his first epistle and second for adhering to the heresy of the Gnostics.I guess what I am getting at is this:
I am not implying or saying that the Kingdom Halls leaders or your structured organization as a whole, are on par with the Synagogues and their regiments but I am asking in what ways are they different? Again it is a sincere inquiry so do not take it ask antagonistic. For instance, when one back then was removed from the synagogue they felt like they were removed from YHWH Himself. Now days if someone is disfellowshipped from the Kingdom Hall they feel they are removed from God also. What differences are there and does the Kingdom Hall believe that if you are difellowshipped and you die in that state, are you going to destruction?
Quote Well, it should be stated that we have made some changes to our beliefs in the past Now, this and other examples make it clear that we let the Bible dictate what we believe and NOT the other way around. We have changed our beliefs if the Bible shows them to be wrong.
This is very commendable. You do not find too many people willing to admit they may have been wrong on a postion they held before and will change to correct the error. To some it is seen as “evidence” witnesses are wrong but to me if one is unwilling to rethink his “dogmas” he may be prideful.
Quote For example, with regard to worshipping Jesus, something I've recently been discussing in the Jesus-trinity thread, the first edition of the Bible (and yes, we've had updated editions LIKE MOST OTHER BIBLES) had one reference to Jesus and the word “worship” was used with reference to him. In all other places, “obeisance” was used. Now think: If we had an agenda, some sort of conspiracy to not worship Jesus, why would the word “worship” have ever been in that Bible? It could just as easily have been translated “obeisance.” But on later more indept thinking and reasoning on the scriptures, it became obvious by Jesus own words that worship should be directed towards only his Father. You last line of:
Quote But on later more indept thinking and reasoning on the scriptures, it became obvious by Jesus own words that worship should be directed towards only his Father …bothers me somewhat. Should we change the Greek (if the Greek says one word) to fit our thinking? For instance there are differences of opinion amongst Bible scholars on whether we should take Paul's paraphrase of certain OT passages, line up with the Septuagint or actually quote what he said and not what he “should have said.” If I have a preconceived idea or a hermeneutical foundation upon which I view through, is it right for me to change the word that may not have been the word that best fit the context? Or in this case: The word was changed from worship to obessiance due to the Watchtowers belief that Jesus should not be worshipped. If in some instances the Greek actually infers that Yeshua Messiah is indeed worshipped, is it not dishonest or even deceiving to make the Greek word read a different way because other Scriptures imply otherwise? The whole concept of divisions within the body stem from single verse tenets. If there are in fact verses that say Jesus is being worshipped that would actually make the whole concept of the Trinity plausible at best would it not?
PS: Make some comments on this if you would and then we will get into the Kingdom and being born again. Apparently and rightly so, being born again is a huge discussion that is a part of that.
Quote You last line of: Quote
But on later more indept thinking and reasoning on the scriptures, it became obvious by Jesus own words that worship should be directed towards only his Father…bothers me somewhat. Should we change the Greek (if the Greek says one word) to fit our thinking?
The Greek was not changed. I believe the English word was changed because it was seen that it perhaps wasn't translated correctly. The Greek word, I believe is “pro·sky·ne·sa′to·san” if I have the right scripture.
And I don't believe that word needs to be translated as “worship.” So considering all that the Bible says about God and about Jesus and considering Jesus own words on who “proskyneo” should be applied to, I think it was seen to fit the context of the Bible as a whole better if that word would be translated “obeisance.”Quote If in some instances the Greek actually infers that Yeshua Messiah is indeed worshipped, is it not dishonest or even deceiving to make the Greek word read a different way because other Scriptures imply otherwise?
Here's the thing: The Greek “actually infers”, no it doesn't infer, it states that proskyneo be applied to Yeshau. But that word has more than one meaning, doesn't it? So we have to look to the rest of the Bible to infer which meaning to apply to that word with respect to Jesus. I think there is more than enough reason to not apply the meaning of 'worship' to the word 'proskyneo' with reference to Jesus.
You have to know that we shed a lot of false beliefs rather quickly, and for a time worshipping Jesus was actually believed to be right. But it wasn't something that was actually widely taught. Worshipping Jesus didn't make sense with the rest of the scriptures. And, that word could just as easily be translated in different ways.Quote If there are in fact verses that say Jesus is being worshipped that would actually make the whole concept of the Trinity plausible at best would it not?
That's the thing. This is an ambiguity.To make this simple:
1. I believe the Bible shows strongly that Jesus isn't part of the trinity.
2. Jesus may or may not be worshipped. The word has more than one meaning.
3. Since other parts of the Bible are clear, it also seems clear which way that word should be translated.A choice has to be made which way to translate it. Do we flip a coin? Or do we look at the Bible as a whole and let that determine it?
The thing is, everyone who sees the Bible saying that Jesus is a trinity argue that it is therefore proper to render that word as “worship.”
But here's the kicker. A lot of people, a LOT of people believe Jesus is God because those translations render that word as “worship.” I think that is dishonest, to render it that way without explaining in footnotes that that is only one meaning of the word and that you shouldn't rest your belief that Jesus is God Almighty on this.Quote What differences are there and does the Kingdom Hall believe that if you are difellowshipped and you die in that state, are you going to destruction?
No, the “kingdom hall” doesn't believe anything, as it is a building. The congregation, what does it believe? It believes that judgement rests in God's hands. I would like to point out though that if someone is truly repentant and making progress and on their way to coming back, that is greatly different than if someone is disfellowshipped and they say good bye and I'm glad, etc.Quote PS: Make some comments on this if you would and then we will get into the Kingdom and being born again. Apparently and rightly so, being born again is a huge discussion that is a part of that. I actually tried yesterday and thought I did comment on being born again, or at least, made some comments. My computer wasn't working or this site was having troubles or something.
david
Quote Wow David that quick lapse kingdom hall build was great! I have never seen that many number of people building a structure asside for an office building or skyscraper. How you got them all to chip in is beyond me We paid them Casey and we paid them a lot!
Just kidding, of course. They all worked without pay for free, and with one common goal.
PHILIPPIANS 2:2
“make my joy full in that YOU are of the same mind and have the same love, being joined together in soul, holding the one thought in mind,”People offer themselves willingly. (Ps 110:3) They help in whatever way they can, even if it isn't an important job. And so the work gets done quickly because it is organized and those who are there are willing to work in whatever way they can.
Quote It was just something you don't see everyday.
Well, you could see it a couple thousand times a year if you were willing to travel.david
Before answering your question, Oxy, I have a question:
Do you know what it means to be born again and why some must be born again?
I know you think you are born again. But something I consider to be an unescapable fact:
NOT ALL WHO THINK THEY ARE BORN AGAIN ARE
Many religious teachers have indiscriminately used the “born again” and “once saved, always saved” theology. And so there are many out there who believe they are born again but don’t really even understand what this means.
Millions of people from nearly every religion and sect of Christendom have been led to believe that they are “born again” and “saved.”
Clearly, a lot of people that think they are born again, are not. Clearly, believing you are born again, does not make it so.
IT IS EASY TO THINK WE ARE BORN AGAIN
It must be stated that our heart and mind can mislead us, especially if influenced by strong emotion. (Jeremiah 17:9) Our minds may betray us when emotion comes into play.
Consider the effect being taught the threats of hellfire punishment. Who would not want to be born again to go to heaven if the only alternative were suffering eternal torment? Under such emotional stress, reason means little and certain beliefs may be uncritically accepted.
So, then, how can one tell if a belief on the matter of being born again has been uncritically accepted? The course of true wisdom is to be guided by everything that God’s holy spirit caused Bible writers to record. Christians are encouraged to worship God ‘with their power of reason’ and need to make sure that what they believe is true.—Romans 12:1, 2; 1 Thessalonians 5:21.1. Are you willing to consider what the Bible says about being born again?
2. What do you think it means to be born again and why are people born again?Can you answer my questions?
Casey, I remember you recently saying things haven't been going that well for you or that you were stressed or something like that. I forgot to ask you about this.
dave
Quote (Oxy @ Oct. 24 2006,19:38) Quote (david @ Oct. 24 2006,09:12) Hi Oxy. Glad to hear from you.
When we come across someone who tells us they've been born again, (and there are many such people) it usually means that they believe they'll someday be with Christ in heaven.
Yet, when we ask them what they'll be doing there with him, they have this blank look on their face. (Rev. 20:6; 5:9, 10)
And too, what people mean by being born again is not always the same.
When Jesus spoke about being born again he said that it was necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God, that is, to be part of God’s Kingdom, his heavenly government. (John 3:5)
The Bible also shows that many people who do the will of God will live here on earth, as happy subjects of that Kingdom. (Matt. 6:10; Ps. 37:29)I'd like to say this and say it loudly and clearly. Not everyone who thinks they are born again are. Most aren't. There are divisions, fighting, killing, blood, hatred, different doctrines, etc, between groups claiming to be born again. As Jesus said, many would be saying “lord lord,” but it would mean nothing. They would really think they were on Jesus side, but their fruits would show them otherwise.
Quote I have had quite a number of JW's knocking on my door over the years. Hey Oxy. Just curious how many other groups felt the Bible message was important enough to come to discuss with you? If you could please name them:
JW's, possibly Mormons, etc.Could you do that for me?
Quote And then when I share with them how God radically changed my life they don't want to know. So Oxy… um.. let me see, what can I ask you….how did God….change your life radically?
Hi David, thankd for your reply. I see I have a bit to answer to lol.1. There are not a lot of groups that come knocking, it's as you say. I have done some door knocking and know of others from my church who do the same. Mostly not to the extent of the JW's and Mormons. I tend to focus on people that I have an association with, such as my students (adult learning environment), and people I meet during the day to day course of life.
2. How did God radically change my life? Glad you asked lol. In 1978 I was unemployed by choice, a drug dependant criminal who was heavily involved in occult practices. Anti social to the max with total disrespect, even hate for authority. I was anger waiting to explode. When I came to the end of myself I cried out to God, not really knowing who God was. He said to me (very clearly) the name of Jesus is used to cast out demons. I called out Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and felt the demons leave me. Because I did not change my ways they came back again. On the 3rd day I realised (after much torment) that the only way I could be free was to give my life to God. I asked Him for forgiveness and asked Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour, totally surrendering to Him. The next morning when I woke up I was different!
I felt so light and so good with the weight of sin gone from me! No drug had EVER made me feel this good! I walked into town and met up with some mates. As I was talking to them I stopped mid sentence in amazement as I realised not one swear word had come out of my mouth, yet I had the foulest of mouths! I looked over the road and saw a policeman. Instead of my heckles rising and hate consuming me, I saw a man doing his job! I could go on.. and on.. lol
Have a look at some more of my testimony on my page http://www.all4god.net/my_experiences.htm
Hi David, I did in fact answer this question from you several pages back. Here it is again….Willing to travel huh? Believe you me, I love to travel. When I was a bachelour I would get in my truck and just drive…no particluar place, just drive. I would pray and spend time with God. Allow time for me to just sit back and allow my restless thoughts to be appeased. Now I am married and broke. I think the two go hand in hand do they not?
Not only that but I married into two wonderful kids and what money my wife takes, they milk the rest. I pretty much just hand my wife the check and ask her if I can have some money to get a burger…it's either that or I have to make all the payment arrangements for our bills. I have done the later, I prefer the former. Anyways…Your responses to my inquiries I am finding much to my satisfaction. As I read these I can't help but think, “if the witnesses would just be able to give this information so much could be resolved.” Maybe you have so many doors slammed in your face and are called so many ugly names even by “us” believers
that you are so rattled and discouraged that you bring that into a house that is willing to discuss these things with you. This past visit about a month ago with Aaron went really well. He was with some guy from NY and was preparing to live up there or something to that affect. We shared how much we all loved God and wanted truth and we basked in the same love for Scriptures. That has never happened before. The very first time the older gentlman (in his 50's maybe) was defensive from the very beginning. He would harldy let me talk without cutting me off and saying, “I see where this is going…I wasn't born yesterday…I have been doing this a long time…” I had to reaffirm time and again I had no Ulterior motives. We started a bases of the 144,000 and he brought an elder the next time. After that I didn't see them again and we moved so I am not sure what happened. About six months ago I met with some and the older gentlman again (maybe it's a grumpy old man thing? kidding of course) this time treated some explanations that I have heard in some verses regarding the diety of Christ (I was not defending this postion by the way) by a mocking laugh. He was Baptist a long time ago so he kind of had a soft spot I guess against Trinitarian denominations. He said “do you believe that God is a Trinity?” I replied that I did not no either way at that time and he would say, “well I guess there is no point in us coming over and we are done here.” He said that one other time so eventually I picked up he didn't really wanna talk as much as he wanted to make fun of denominational thinking. It is ok if yoiu don't agree but at least respect the person am I right? The odd thing is the younger kid (about 21) would say, “No, let's talk more about this” and the other guy would make faces. I never saw them again. My wife would be picking up around the house or putting on her makeup and the last time they were there she was upset at how that man was acting. You've mentioned that it is more personal face to face when you knock on doors but you have made more headway with me than any witness I have spoken with face to face did.So shall we begin the Kingdom and being born again? The site did have some problems today and yesterday so we did not receive your post on born again. I will present our view as briefly as I can given the much reading this takes to begin with…
Adam and Eve sinned hence their “spirit” died. Since then we are all in sin with a dead spirit. Jesus spoke to Nicodemus saying the initial entrance into this kingdom one had to be born again or born from above. God by His Spirit replaces the heart of stone (Jeremiah 33 I think) and gives us a heart of flesh. So the “old man” in Adam is dead but the new man in Christ has given life eternal. When we say born again or from above, we are in essence saying that the Holy Spirit has birthed into us the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ (there are two references given by Paul in his epistles termed such) and has taken the veil that Satan had us in (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) off and given us eyes to see and ears to hear. The dead man in Adam cannot receive, discern, comprehend or understand the things of God 1 Cornthians 1&2). For the Spirit of God in the new creature (us rebirthed) testifies with our Spirit.
This is a rough draft and poor explanation but it is a start.
The kingdom Christ spoke of does not appear to be a kingdom on Earth. The passage of Revelation 21 is the only mention of a “millenial reign” and the number 1000 is given symbolically throughout Scripture for example in Isaiah it says that a 1000 years is a day to God. The symbolism throughout the entire book of Revelation – candlesticks, beasts, trumpets, bowels, maybe the 144,000, and numerous other words should not stop at the end of the book and seen as literal.
That's a good start I guess.
Dave: Yeah it has been rough for the past two months. The neighbors in the apts I used to live in all had tons of kids. The Christian neighbors of mine and I & my wife and I started a sort of outside kids Bible study kind of like a vacation bible school. We took turns bringing snacks and drinks and after we played a few fun games they would eat and drink and would take turns giving a bible study trying to make the kids think of how that could apply to them now. All of our neighbors loved us and we would babysit and our kids would play for hours outside with their kids. Some neighbor who apparently didn't like us, called CPS and said we left out kids unattended. We were blown away. We were speechless. How could someone make such a false blatant lie about us? Why would they do that? I still don't know and it still boggles my mind. The very same neighbors whose kids we watched and whose kids we taught! Our manager who was our neighbor and friend told us what happened. It was her friend who was asking the questions who worked with CPS. We decided to move within that week and by the hand of God we found a rent house out in the country away from any neighbors that had a huge playhouse already built in the backyard for our kids. That is where we are now. We thought the CPS thing was done and gone but a few weeks ago they called us and paid a visit. We were nervous to the point of vomiting. We had done nothing but why was CPS coming out? We knew that there was no grounds to have our kids taken away but there biological father (I am there othere daddy) could have full custody if a case was opened up and we feared he would take them and for no reason would there be a cause for such a crisis. The CPS lady came out and spoke with me one on one and then my wife one on one and then my kids together. Someone made an OUTRAGEOUS CALL REPORTING THAT my wife and I would hit our kids on the head and scream at them for no reason! After all was said and done she said the report was unfounded and simply in her words rediculous. The case was dropped but Satan didn't stop there. My son got strep throat within a week after that, my father in law dad's died and my grandmother was almost killed and had to move yesterday. I have a funeral tomorrow, my wife and I are both sick from Jacob and it never seems to end. Much more has happened but you get the picture. I don't want to come off as a poor me; just wanted you to know what happened when I told you I have been dealing with a lot. I know God is good and my redeemer lives. He is merciful and gracious and there are tons of people who are in way worst shape than us.
Your prayers are much appreciated.
Casey S Smith 29,
We'll keep you in prayer, It's funny but as you turn more and more of your life over to God you truely can be grateful for those tough times as God is using it to accomplish a work in your life. I usually fight it at first and react emotionally but after a time I simply place my trust in God and what He's doing as being the best thing for my life or al least for my eternity. Some day perhaps I'll except it all in stride but I'm not there yet. It is surprising though that some people have not concept of what God accomplishes and the means by which He does it. We tend to judge everything by how it affects me today not how it changes me for tomorrow. Be blessed brother and may the Lord have His way in all that you do.Wm
First, I'd like to ask if anyone else is having difficulty with this site? Perhaps it's just my computer. Often I try to open a thread and all I get is a blank page.
Quote Hi David, I did in fact answer this question from you several pages back. Here it is again….
Thanks Oxy.
So, I take it from this that you consider that to be a “born again” experience.
My questions to you:Quote Do you know what it means to be born again and why some must be born again?
1. Are you willing to consider what the Bible says about being born again?
2. What do you think it means to be born again and why are people born again?
I'm seeing more and more that not all people consider being born again to be the same thing.david
Ok, it just took me 5 minutes to get back here. And when I post something, I am returned to the white “done” page. This is frustrating.
Quote I had to reaffirm time and again I had no Ulterior motives.
At times, when we began to speak, it seemed very much to me like you did have ulterior motives. In fact, I remember saying that your motives seemed clear and I didn't mean that in a nice way. When someone spits out every vile thing they've heard about us and can recite them from heart, it seems to suggest something. Either they are someone who knows a lot about the Bible and are deeply fascinated in these things or, more likely, they've been to anti-JW sites or have been given things to say against us. So, I understand why someone may have wrongly questioned your motives. Zeal is a good thing. But we can only drink one cup of water at a time. Don't expect us to stand under Niagra falls with our mouths open and take it all in. And that's what it sometimes feels like when people list off all these accusations without discussing them or looking at what the Bible says. Ok, my tyraid is over.Quote He said “do you believe that God is a Trinity?” I replied that I did not no either way at that time and he would say, “well I guess there is no point in us coming over and we are done here.”
I find this story is missing some details. I wasn't there, but here are some guesses: If it was thought that you were being overly argumentational or if it was felt that you only wanted to “teach” him what you believed without listening to what we were saying…. I don't know. I can't believe that he asked you if you believe the trinity. You said you weren't sure. Then he said: Goodbye. That makes no sense at all.Quote You've mentioned that it is more personal face to face when you knock on doors but you have made more headway with me than any witness I have spoken with face to face did.
I can't speak for that persons face troubles (I'm laughing now) but I would like to say that my point with what I said was that yes, sure, I can speak to you like this. But the good news is to be preached in all the inhabited earth. We can't just have a website and hope that everyone finds their way to it, or ring a bell like the churches do and have people come. We “search out” people. We go to them. We don't sit back. We take the initiative. There are some witnesses who don't have the interenet. But everyone has a mouth. And there are some people of the nations who don't have the internet. But most people have doors to the outside world.Quote Adam and Eve sinned hence their “spirit” died. Since then we are all in sin with a dead spirit.
This is part of the reason I haven't spoken much about being born again. There are a few other beliefs that this is based upon that it seems we must wade through.
What do you mean their spirit died? I believe their spirit returned to the true God who gave it.
ECCLESIASTES 12:7
“Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the [true] God who gave it.”
JOB 34:14
“If he sets his heart upon anyone, [If] that one’s spirit and breath he gathers to himself,”
PSALM 104:29
“If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, And back to their dust they go.”
Nnotice that the person expires (the “soul” really) but the spirit is simply taken away.
Anyway, I'm not sure what you are saying in that we have a dead spirit. The expression “dead spirit” is not found in scripture.Why don't I give you one scripture that I think has some bearing on why some need to be born again so they can enter the kingdom.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:50
“However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”
Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, those who do inherit the kingdom would have to be born again, in a different way, so to speak.Moving on,
I'm sorry to hear these things have come upon you, and all at once, it seems. But it sounds like things are turning and I suspect things will get better.
david.
ps, if this doesn't post, I'm not re-posting it.
Quote (david @ Oct. 28 2006,05:07) First, I'd like to ask if anyone else is having difficulty with this site? Perhaps it's just my computer. Often I try to open a thread and all I get is a blank page. Quote Hi David, I did in fact answer this question from you several pages back. Here it is again….
Thanks Oxy.
So, I take it from this that you consider that to be a “born again” experience.
My questions to you:Quote Do you know what it means to be born again and why some must be born again?
1. Are you willing to consider what the Bible says about being born again?
2. What do you think it means to be born again and why are people born again?
I'm seeing more and more that not all people consider being born again to be the same thing.david
Hi David, thanks for your reply. Scripture saysJoh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the living Word of God, and abiding forever
The living Word is of course, Jesus.
Everyone's born again experience will be different. It is a unique experience that involves acceptance of the death of the Son of God in order to pay the price for our sins, and the willingness to follow Him.
I think that a mistake that is often made is that people who are involved in a religion are not willing to let God choose whether they stay there or not.
I recently asked a JW if he would switch churches/religions if God told him to. He said he would not be willing to do that.
By comparrison, I have changed a number of times over the years, but always at the Lord's leading and always into a pentecostal church.
Blessings
Quote I recently asked a JW if he would switch churches/religions if God told him to. He said he would not be willing to do that. By comparrison, I have changed a number of times over the years, but always at the Lord's leading and always into a pentecostal church.
hi oXY,
So you're a pentecostal?
You know, I believe that JW's more than anyone, more than any other group claiming to be Christian are made up of people who have decided to become JW's and not people who were born into that religion. We have many people deciding to come in. We don't have a great number deciding to leave, once they've actually decided to come in. There are a lot of children who when they grow up decide not to become JW's. No one is forced to be baptized. That is a completely personal decision.Quote Everyone's born again experience will be different. It is a unique experience that involves acceptance of the death of the Son of God in order to pay the price for our sins, and the willingness to follow Him. So I'm seeing two things:
1. Accepting the death of the Son of God as a ransom for our sins and a willingness to be his follower.
2. A born again “experience.”I'm curious about this experience.
Let's start with the obvious scripture:
JOHN 3:3-5
“In answer Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is BORN AGAIN, [“Is born again.” Lit., “should be generated from above.” Gr., gen·ne·theí áno·then.] he cannot SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” Nicodémus said to him: “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter into the womb of his mother a second time and be born, can he?” Jesus answered: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is BORN FROM WATER AND SPIRIT, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.” (NWT)John 3:5 (New International Version)
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD unless he is born of water and the Spirit.John 3:5 (New American Standard Bible)
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.John 3:5 (The Message)
Jesus said, “You're not listening. Let me say it again. Unless a person submits to this original creation–the “wind hovering over the water' creation, the invisible moving the visible, a baptism into a new life–it's not possible to ENTER GOD’S KINGDOM.John 3:5 (Amplified Bible)
Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [[a]even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.John 3:5 (New Living Translation)
Jesus replied, “The truth is, no one can ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD without being born of water and the Spirit.John 3:5 (King James Version)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.John 3:5 (English Standard Version)
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.John 3:5 (Contemporary English Version)
Jesus answered:
I tell you for certain that before you can GET INTO GOD’S KINGDOM, you must be born not only by water, but by the Spirit.John 3:5 (21st Century King James Version)
Jesus answered, “Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.John 3:5 (Young's Literal Translation)
Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to ENTER INTO THE REIGN OF GOD;John 3:5 (Darby Translation)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.John 3:5 (New Life Version)
Jesus answered, “For sure, I tell you, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit of God, he cannot GET INTO THE HOLY NATION OF GOD.John 3:5 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Jesus answered, ” I assure you: Unless someone is born (A) of water and the Spirit, (B) [a] he cannot ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.John 3:5 (New International Reader's Version)
Jesus answered, “What I'm about to tell you is true. No one can ENTER GOD’S KINGDOM without being born through water and the Holy Spirit.John 3:5 (Wycliffe New Testament)
Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to thee, but a man be born again of water, and of the Holy Ghost, he may not ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.John 3:5 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
Jesus said, `I tell you the truth. This new birth is by water and by the Spirit. No person can ENTER GOD’S KINGDOM if he has not been born that way.So apparently, becoming born again is all about entering the kingdom of God.So, the question is: What does it mean to “enter into the kingdom of God,” “enter the kingdom of God,” “enter the reign of God,” “enter the holy nation of God,” or “enter God’s kingdom”?
That would depend on what God’s kingdom is.
david
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He said “do you believe that God is a Trinity?” I replied that I did not no either way at that time and he would say, “well I guess there is no point in us coming over and we are done here.”I find this story is missing some details. I wasn't there, but here are some guesses: If it was thought that you were being overly argumentational or if it was felt that you only wanted to “teach” him what you believed without listening to what we were saying…. I don't know. I can't believe that he asked you if you believe the trinity. You said you weren't sure. Then he said: Goodbye. That makes no sense at all.
I did not list the entire conversation for space and time reasons not to mention my point was the emphasis on the witnesses unwillingness to stay. I was not trying to “teach” him anything.
Quote I can't believe that he asked you if you believe the trinity. You said you weren't sure. Then he said: Goodbye. That makes no sense at all He did ask bluntly if I believed in a Trinity. I did reply that I was not sure. He then said he found no reason to continue with the conversation. At that moment he didn't just abruptly leave. The younger believer was trying to talk him into staying and continue a raport with future visits. He said they had to leave because there were people waiting in the van and they had more visits to meet with. There was nothing I left out. I don't understand why did not or do not believe me but what I said was how it happened.
Hey Casey. I hope you and your family are well.
Quote He did ask bluntly if I believed in a Trinity. I did reply that I was not sure. He then said he found no reason to continue with the conversation. I don't know what to tell you Casey. That's bizarre in the extreme.
Quote At that moment he didn't just abruptly leave. The younger believer was trying to talk him into staying and continue a raport with future visits. He said they had to leave because there were people waiting in the van and they had more visits to meet with. Well I guess that makes sense. Sometimes, when we are in larger groups, we go from call to call and don't expect to spend a lot of time at any one house. But when we come in contact with someone like yourself who is truly wanting to talk, we have to keep in mind that there are those in the car waiting. We try to be considerate to everyone.
This has happened to me before where I am having a nice conversation but the other brother realizes that people are waiting on us. Really, for such visits, they should be set up so that only two go out by themselves, and then they are not holding anyone up.Quote I don't understand why did not or do not believe me but what I said was how it happened.
It's not that I don't believe you. It's just that details are sometimes left out. The impression I got from what you wrote (which was wrong) was that you said you weren't sure if you believed in the trinity and based on that the two decided to leave, then and there. This isn't what happened. I don't disbelieve you. But if that is what happened, and of course it isn't, then that would be quite bizarre to me.david
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