Jehovah&#39;s Witness Church

Participant

Quote

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

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Well David, I gave you one scripture how long ago to come up with an explaination for. Now is your chance to give the answer. I will post it again and then, I will toss in much more. When the smoke clears, we will see who is left standing. Are you game?

If this is the scripture you are speaking of, I do remember commenting on it not too long ago. Which thread is it in? Where did you originally ask this question? Actually, what is the question?
Are you saying a person isn't a Christian if they don't drink poison and play with poisonous snakes?

August 22, 2006 at 4:58 am#25234

Participant

These are the facts:

There is one Body/Church
Its head is Christ Jesus
The JWs are a body just as the Catholics are too
But neither are the Body of Christ, rather the bodies of man
The Church came into being approx 2000 years ago and the gates of hell would not prevail against her.
The JWs came into being recently, not 2000 years ago,
They have their own foundation and apostles etc
No man can lay another foundation however
It was written that many would rise up from among the believers and draw men to THEMSELVES.
The fruit of these men are denominations. (Lutherans – Martin Luther), (Catholics – Athanasius), (JWs – perhaps Arius).
The JWs came into being around a man and helped by others later on, but that man wasn't Christ Jesus.
As Christians, we should recognise the true body of Christ.
As Christians we should be one in spirit and truth.
JWs are not one with believers. They consider themselves exclusive. E.g., I wouldn't be a true believer to them because I am not a JW.
A JW cannot be at one with a spirit filled believer who doesn't belong to the JWs.
Of course Paul wasn't a JW, yet somehow they cater for those who are obvious christians but who were not JWs for reason of exisiting before that organisation.
I think this wouldn't include Paul if he lived today, because he wouldn't be a JW. So they think that Paul is a man of God because he existed before the JWs, but not today if he lived and wasn't a JW. Remember when he spoke about division by saying “Are you a follower of Paul, Apollos, Christ”? What was his conclusion. Therefore he wouldn't be a follower of any denomination would he?
Conclusion: The JW organisation is another body that is not only different to the Body of Christ in identity, but also is not in unity with the Body of Christ as a whole.
Some individuals from within the JWs may well be true believers and part of the universal Body of Christ, even if they do not know it. But in order to be free to serve God in SPIRIT and TRUTH, they should come out of her, just as believers should come out of the Roman Catholic organisation.
We need to follow Christ, not Martin Luther, Athanasius, Arius, nor myself. We can learn from people, but a true teacher doesn't draw men unto himself, rather he will point people to Christ.

August 22, 2006 at 7:05 am#25238

Is 1:18

Participant

Hi David,
What, in your honest opinion, is the more accurate translation; the NWT or KJV?

Blessings

August 22, 2006 at 11:22 pm#25324

Participant

Hi Isaiah,

Today, the word “prevent” means to “keep from happening.”
It used to mean to “go before” or to “precede.”
1 THESSALONIANS 4:15
KJV
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not PREVENT them which are asleep.”
NWT
“For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way PRECEDE those who have fallen asleep [in death];”
The meaning of the KJV used to be correct in English, when the word “prevent” meant to “precede.” But it no longer means that. It no longer conveys the right meaning.

Today, the word “let” usually means to “permit.”
Back then, it meant to “hinder,” the opposite of today.
2 THESSALONIAN 2:7
KJV
“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.”
NWT
“True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way.”

“Conversation used to mean “conduct.” Today, it doesn’t.
PHILIPPIANS 1:27
KJV
“Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ”
NWT
“Only behave [or conduct yourself] in a manner worthy of the good news….”
So back then, when people understood the word “conversation” to mean “conduct” this translation was accurate. Today, it conveys the wrong meaning here.

Is 1:18, if I were to tell you today that you were in shambles, you would think I meant you looked like you were a mess, in a state or scene of destruction. But back then, it referred to a “meat market.” (1 Cor 10:25)

Language has changed over time. The KJV no longer always conveys the thought it originally attempted to convey.

True Christians read the Bible, not to be entertained by clever turns of expression, unusual words, excellency of style, striking rhetorical devices or felicities of rhythm, but to learn the will of God. It was for this reason that the King James Version came into existence. But that was in 1611.

Many Bibles try to find a balance between the precise meaning and smooth speech. The NWT has sometimes been accused of being a rough read because it puts much more emphasis on correct translation. Some Greek scholars have described it as “hyper-literal.” (Jason Beduhn)

Isaiah, I know more than all else, you would like to reject the NWT because of the little word “a” in a very infamous scripture. Most scholars say that this translation is grammatically POSSIBLE, but dismiss it because of their bias and because of who made it. They tend not give definite reasons for rejecting it. I remember reading quotes of people who were against JW's who believed that the NWT was a very literal translation 'except for the 4 or 5 that they have totally wrong.' So I've found that even those that disagree with certain scriptural translations say that the NWT is quite literal in its rendering.

DAVID

T8,

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These are the facts:. . .

You missed the fact that we don't make a habit of drinking poison or handling snakes. Come to think of it t8, do you or Nick drink poison?

H, I believe I did answer this question already, and went into a little more detail, but what I simply said, was that hese verses are spurious, that is, they are not in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible.
Please find where we were discussing this, H.

david.

August 22, 2006 at 11:25 pm#25327

Participant

Drinking poison or handling snakes doesn't prove anything to me, that is why I didn't mention it. In fact I didn't even think of it.

August 22, 2006 at 11:26 pm#25328

Participant

Well add it to the list.

August 22, 2006 at 11:46 pm#25332

Participant

Anyone who drinks poison or intentionally gets bitten by a snake to test their faith is a fool. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. What it says in Mark is if things like this happen to you, as it did to Paul when shipwrecked on an island with convicts, that our faith will keep us safe.

Dear David, shall we do the doctrine dance. This is your chance to prove your religion? I have to warn you thou, I am starting out with 1 Samuel 28. This debate will be if the soul ceases to exist as proclaimed by the Jehovah witnesses or if when a man dies, his soul goes to heaven or hell as according to God's Holy Word.

Now, David, I don't want to hear not garbage about this not really being Samuel that was called from the dead, because scripture plainly states it was him. And this is only the beginning. I have much more.

August 22, 2006 at 11:52 pm#25334

Participant

Quote (david @ Aug. 23 2006,19:26)

Well add it to the list.

No.

I am happy with the list the way it is.

August 23, 2006 at 12:38 am#25337

Participant

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I thought “soul” was what you wanted to discuss. It confused me when you started talking about Mark 16. Nick and I discussed that scripture for several pages in the “soul” thread. I'll go find it. If you glance through it (although I think it's a long thread) you'll likely find what my responce to you will be.

david.

August 23, 2006 at 12:52 am#25339

Participant

I already know what your response will be David. It will be the same as every JW I have come across, for you are share the same false teachings. You will claim that it was not really Samuel, even though scripture plainly shows that it was Samuel and not a familar spirit as proclaimed by the JW teachings.

This is denying God's Word. You are changing what the Word of God says. The bible says it was the soul of Samuel and Saul knew it to be Samuel. This alone destroys the JW doctrine, for they deny scripture and replace it with their own interpretation.

August 23, 2006 at 1:12 am#25340

Participant

Why did Saul die?

Why would a loving Father forbid us from speaking to our loved ones, if that truly were possible?

Why does the Bible expressly forbid enquiring of spirit mediums?

I will meet you in the “soul” thread.

Quote

The bible says it was the soul of Samuel and Saul knew it to be Samuel.

The KJV doesn't say it was the “soul” of Samuel. I can't find that word anywhere, can I? And your KJV says: “And Saul perceived that it was Samuel.” It doesn't actually say Saul KNEW it was Samuel, as you suggest, does it?
Anyway, I'd like to discuss this with you in the “soul” thread, as I've already talked about it a couple times there and when I have to talk about it a 7th and 8th time, I'll know where to find all the scriptures–in the “soul” thread. Thanks.

But, I can't right now. I'm going to help someone work on his house. Bye for now.

david.

August 23, 2006 at 3:04 am#25342

seminarian

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 22 2006,05:58)

These are the facts:

There is one Body/Church

Its head is Christ Jesus

The JWs are a body just as the Catholics are too

But neither are the Body of Christ, rather the bodies of man

The Church came into being approx 2000 years ago and the gates of hell would not prevail against her.

The JWs came into being recently, not 2000 years ago,

They have their own foundation and apostles etc

No man can lay another foundation however

It was written that many would rise up from among the believers and draw men to THEMSELVES.

The fruit of these men are denominations. (Lutherans – Martin Luther), (Catholics – Athanasius), (JWs – perhaps Arius).

The JWs came into being around a man and helped by others later on, but that man wasn't Christ Jesus.

As Christians, we should recognise the true body of Christ.

As Christians we should be one in spirit and truth.

JWs are not one with believers. They consider themselves exclusive. E.g., I wouldn't be a true believer to them because I am not a JW.

A JW cannot be at one with a spirit filled believer who doesn't belong to the JWs.

Of course Paul wasn't a JW, yet somehow they cater for those who are obvious christians but who were not JWs for reason of exisiting before that organisation.

I think this wouldn't include Paul if he lived today, because he wouldn't be a JW. So they think that Paul is a man of God because he existed before the JWs, but not today if he lived and wasn't a JW. Remember when he spoke about division by saying “Are you a follower of Paul, Apollos, Christ”? What was his conclusion. Therefore he wouldn't be a follower of any denomination would he?

Conclusion: The JW organisation is another body that is not only different to the Body of Christ in identity, but also is not in unity with the Body of Christ as a whole.

Some individuals from within the JWs may well be true believers and part of the universal Body of Christ, even if they do not know it. But in order to be free to serve God in SPIRIT and TRUTH, they should come out of her, just as believers should come out of the Roman Catholic organisation.

We need to follow Christ, not Martin Luther, Athanasius, Arius, nor myself. We can learn from people, but a true teacher doesn't draw men unto himself, rather he will point people to Christ.

Hi Rejoycesing,

T8's response here is dead on. The JW's, Mormons and Christian Scientists are all built around the teachings of one charismatic leader…and he wasn't Christ. JW's came out of the Millerite Movement with it's Great Disappointment. Look it up. The Millerites like the Russelites made false prophecies about the second coming of Christ. All failed obviously.

When Russell's, (started the JW's), prophecy failed to materialize, he simply lied and convinced people Christ had in fact returned as he said but invisibly! This is of course contrary to what the Bible actually teaches, that EVERY eye will see him in Revelation 1:7.

Take Nick's advice and don't let someone sell you a bill of goods. Look into the church's doctrine and history YOURSELF.
Just remember, being a member of a particular church or organization does not save you. Only the Blood of Christ can redeem. That is why there is but ONE mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus. [1Timothy 2:5] A church, religious organization, its leaders, pastors or priests can not mediate anything.

Be blessed,

Semmy

August 23, 2006 at 5:06 am#25344

Participant

Guys. You may be going about this all wrong. As Rejoycesing said in her post:

“Also the fact that so many speak so negatively about the JWs is a reason to believe that they may be right. I have had people vehemently oppose them when I mentioned my study of the JWs and usually what they believe about them is wrong.”

Note that she also said: “there will be no perfect church but I believe over the years I could see evidence that changes have been made which they have been greatly criticized for instead of praised for realizing that a teaching was wrong and needed to be changed.”

You may want to change your tactics.

david

August 23, 2006 at 8:36 am#25348

Participant

1 Samuel 28:4-20 (King James Version)

4And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.
5And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
6And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

(As a footnote, I’d like to say that the word “LORD” is in capital letters to let us know that a change has been made and that this is where God’s name should be, and used to be.)

Before saying anything, I would like to say this: GOD HATES SPIRITISTIC PRACTICES, and there is a reason for that. WHY?
Why does God Almighty so loathe those who consult spirit mediums? (Deut 18:9-12) Why does he view them as unclean? (Lev. 19:31)
If we really could talk to our dead loved ones, why would a God of love condemn it as something “detestable” and “unclean”?
Even though God had legislated strictly against spiritism, spirit mediums appeared from time to time in the land of Israel. These were probably foreigners who came into the land or some of those who had been spared from destruction by the Israelites.
King Saul removed them from the land during his reign, but evidently toward the end of his rule some spirit mediums again began their practice. SAUL DEMONSTRATED HOW FAR HE HAD REMOVED HIMSELF FROM GOD when he went to consult the “mistress of spirit mediumship in En-dor.”—1Sa 28:3, 7-10.

Now, let’s look at what the account says, and what the Bible says.
In the fortieth year of his reign King Saul faces a battle with the Philistines near Mount Gilboa. Realizing that he is abandoned by Jehovah God, he turns to witchcraft,* which he had at the beginning banned from his kingdom. By night, and disguised, he visits a surviving witch at Endor and tries to communicate through her with dead Samuel for information.
*A Merriam Webster definition for “witchcraft” is: “communication with the devil or with a familiar.” So I think it applies.

You said that the Bible says that Saul “knew” that it was Samuel. Interestingly, your KJV says that he “perceived” that it was Samuel. (Verse 14) Encarta says one possible meaning of “perceive” is: “to understand or interpret something in a particular way.” And yes, Saul did “perceive” or interpret things that way. But look closely at verses 13 and 14. Verses 13, 14 show that Saul himself did not see Samuel but only assumed from the description given by the spirit medium that she saw Samuel. (Please read that last line again.) Saul desperately wanted to believe that it was Samuel and so let himself be deceived. On hearing her description of an old man with a sleeveless coat, Saul assumed or “perceived” this apparition to be Samuel.

AND WHAT WAS THE MESSAGE given by this “Samuel”? Israel would be given into Philistine hands, and the next day Saul and his sons would be with “Samuel,” indicating that they would die while fighting the Philistines. (1 Samuel 28:4-19) Is that what happened?
Not “tomorrow,” as the “Samuel” INCORRECTLY says, but a number of days later King Saul and three, not all, of his sons fall in battle at Mount Gilboa. (His son Ish-bosheth survived him.)—1 Sam. 28:4-25; 31:1-13.

Question: Does dying somehow give a person the ability to fortell the future? If so, why did “Samuel” do it so badly. And if not, why would “Samuel” think he could, or try to do something he couldn’t do? We know that Satan and his demons like to mislead. We know that “Samuel’s” prophecies were not from Jehovah because they were WRONG and Jehovah was not answering Saul at this time. (verse 6) As well, Jehovah hates spiritism. If Jehovah was not behind this, then who?

When Saul went to the medium, Jehovah’s spirit had for some time been removed from him, and in fact, God would not answer his inquiries by means of dreams or by the Urim (used by the high priest) or by the prophets. (1Sa 28:6) God would have no more to do with him; and God’s prophet Samuel had not seen Saul for a long period of time, from before David’s being anointed to be king. So IT IS UNREASONABLE TO THINK THAT SAMUEL, EVEN IF STILL ALIVE, WOULD NOW COME TO GIVE SAUL ADVICE. And God would certainly not cause Samuel, whom he had not sent to Saul before his death, to come back from the dead to talk to Saul.—1Sa 15:35.
We are told that“Although Saul would inquire of Jehovah, Jehovah never answered him, either by dreams or by the Úrim or by the prophets.” (28:6) Could Saul trick Jehovah by going about this another way to get some information from him through Samuel?
That JEHOVAH WOULD IN NO WAY APPROVE OF OR COOPERATE WITH SAUL’S ACTIONS is shown by his later statement through Isaiah:“And in case they should say to you people: ‘Apply to the spiritistic mediums or to those having a spirit of prediction who are chirping and making utterances in low tones,’ is it not to its God that any people should apply? Should there be application to dead persons in behalf of living persons? To the law and to the attestation!”—Isa 8:19, 20.

Therefore, when the account reads: “When the woman saw ‘Samuel’ she began crying out at the top of her voice,” it obviously recounts the eventAS VIEWED BY THE MEDIUM,who was deceived by the spirit that imperso
nated Samuel. (1Sa 28:12)
As for Saul himself, the principle stated by the apostle Paul applied: “Just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting . . . Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.”—Ro 1:28-32.

The Commentary on the Old Testament, by C. F. Keil and F. Delitzsch (1973, Vol. II, First Samuel, p. 265), refers to the Greek Septuagint at 1 Chronicles 10:13, which has added the words “and Samuel the prophet answered him.” (Bagster) The Commentary supports the view that is implied by these uninspired words in the Septuagint, but it adds:“Nevertheless the fathers, reformers, and earlier Christian theologians, with very few exceptions, assumed that there was not a real appearance of Samuel, but only an imaginary one. According to the explanation given by Ephraem Syrus, an apparent image of Samuel was presented to the eye of Saul through demoniacal arts. Luther and Calvin adopted the same view, and the earlier Protestant theologians followed them in regarding the apparition as nothing but a diabolical spectre, a phantasm, or diabolical spectre in the form of Samuel, and Samuel’s announcement as nothing but a diabolical revelation made by divine permission, in which truth is mixed with falsehood.”

So even some who believe that this really was Samuel recognize that “the fathers, reformers, and earlier Christian theologians, with very few exceptions,” believed that this was not really Samuel, but that this witch was using demonical arts.

In a footnote (First Samuel, pp. 265, 266), this Commentary says: “Thus Luther says . . . ‘The raising of Samuel by a soothsayer or witch, in 1 Sam. xxviii. 11, 12, was certainly merely a spectre of the devil; not only because the Scriptures state that it was effected by a woman who was full of devils (for who could believe that the souls of believers, who are in the hand of God, . . . were under the power of the devil, and of simple men?), but also because it was evidently in opposition to the command of God that Saul and the woman inquired of the dead. The Holy Ghost cannot do anything against this himself, nor can He help those who act in opposition to it.’ Calvin also regards the apparition as only a spectre . . . : ‘It is certain,’ he says, ‘that it was not really Samuel, for God would never have allowed His prophets to be subjected to such diabolical conjuring. For here is a sorceress calling up the dead from the grave. Does any one imagine that God wished His prophet to be exposed to such ignominy; as if the devil had power over the bodies and souls of the saints which are in His keeping? The souls of the saints are said to rest . . . in God, waiting for their happy resurrection. Besides, are we to believe that Samuel took his cloak with him into the grave? For all these reasons, it appears evident that the apparition was nothing more than a spectre, and that the senses of the woman herself were so deceived, that she thought she saw Samuel, whereas it really was not he.’ The earlier orthodox theologians also disputed the reality of the appearance of the departed Samuel on just the same grounds.”

Nearly 400 years after Saul’s reign, King Manasseh of Judah “did on a large scale what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, to offend him,” including the consulting of professional foretellers of events, who flourished under his rule. (2Ki 21:6; 2Ch 33:6) All of these had to be cleaned out of the land by Manasseh’s grandson, righteous King Josiah.—2Ki 23:24.

I think that’s pretty much it. But I’d like to add:

WAS IT PROPER FOR TO HIM TO INQUIRE OF THE DEAD? No, it was not. The Scriptures tell us: “SAUL DIED for his unfaithfulness . . . and ALSO FOR ASKING OF A SPIRIT MEDIUM to make inquiry.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)
Can we learn something from this? Yes. Saul died for asking a spirit medium to inquire of the dead. Why? Because in doing this, he disobeyed God’s explicit law:
DEUTERONOMY 18:9-12
“…You must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. There should not be found in you . . . anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah.”
LEVITICUS 19:31
“Do not turn yourselves to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of events, so as to become unclean by them.”
Why is inquiry of the dead “detestable to Jehovah”? Before answering that question, we may ask:

Is It Really Possible? What does the Bible say?
If anyone is to talk with the dead, the deceased must actually be alive. They must have immortal souls. Yet the Bible says: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) Therefore, the person himself is a soul. He does not have an immortal soul that lives on after the death of the body. In fact, the Scriptures say: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) Moreover, God’s Word says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,” mankind’s common grave.—Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10.
Far from being more enlightened, then, the dead are unconscious. So it is impossible to speak with them. Acting in harmony with God’s law against inquiring of the dead therefore protects us from being deceived. Yet, messages from the spirit realm are possible, as King Saul’s experience shows.

Is it really possible for a human to communicate with the “spirit” of a dead loved one?
Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [the grave], the place to which you are going.”
Ezek. 18:4, 20: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (So the soul is not something that survives the death of the body and with which living humans can thereafter communicate.)
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (When the spirit is said to ‘go out’ of the body, this is merely another way of saying that the life-force has ceased to be active. Thus, after a person dies, his spirit does not exist as an immaterial being that can think and carry out plans apart from the body. It is not something with which the living can communicate after a person’s death.)

But What Is the Source?
For one thing, frauds are common among those professing to contact the dead. The World Book Encyclopedia informs us: “It has been shown that mediums trick people at séances into believing that spirits can communicate with the living. Scientists offer explanations for much of what happens at séances. For example, some mediums are ventriloquists. Some use helpers and various types of trick equipment. Others use hypnosis. Many people who attend séances have a strong desire to contact a dead loved one. This desire may make them believe that any message delivered by the medium comes from the spirit world.”
But should we think only in such terms? No, for adhering to God’s decree against inquiring of the dead also protects us in a far more significant way. Messages do come from the spirit realm, but their source is powerful creatures seeking to mislead mankind. The Bible identifies them as “WICKED SPIRIT FORCES”—Satan the Devil and disobedient
angels known as demons. (Ephesians 6:12) When King Saul visited the spirit medium in En-dor, it was a demon that impersonated the dead prophet Samuel.
As illustrated in the case of Saul, the demons have nothing beneficial to convey, and their supposed help is short-lived. Like their ruler, the Devil, they are liars. (Mark 3:22; John 8:44) In this regard, the late British psychic researcher Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote: “We have, unhappily, to deal with absolute cold-blooded lying on the part of wicked or mischievous intelligences. Every one who has investigated the matter has, I suppose, met with examples of wilful deception which occasionally are mixed up with good and true communications.” (The New Revelation, page 72)

With whom are those who endeavor to speak with the dead actually communicating?
The truth about the condition of the dead is clearly stated in the Bible. But who tried to deceive the first human pair about death? Satan contradicted God’s warning that disobedience would bring death. (Gen. 3:4; Rev. 12:9) In time, of course, it became obvious that humans did die as God said they would. Reasonably, then, WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR INVENTING THE IDEA THAT HUMANS REALLY DO NOT DIE but that some spirit part of man survives the death of the body? Such a deception fits Satan the Devil, whom Jesus described as “the father of the lie.” (John 8:44; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10.) Belief that the dead are really alive in another realm and that we can communicate with them has not benefited mankind. On the contrary, REVELATION 18:23 SAYS THAT, BY MEANS OF THE SPIRITISTIC PRACTICES OF BABYLON THE GREAT, “ALL THE NATIONS WERE MISLED.” The spiritistic practice of ‘talking with the dead’ is actually a fraudulent deception that can put people in contact with the demons and often leads to a person’s hearing unwanted voices and being harassed by those wicked spirits.

CONSULTING A SPIRIT MEDIUM and inquiring of the dead are LINKED WITH FORTELLING EVENTS. (Deut 18:11)
The only mention in the Christian Greek Scriptures of demonic predicting of the future is the instance in which the apostle Paul, in the city of Philippi, freed “a certain servant girl with a spirit, a DEMON OF DIVINATION.” She had furnished her masters with much gain “by practicing the art of prediction.” Manifesting the fact that such practice is truly demonic and diametrically opposed to God, the masters of the girl from whom the demon was cast out caused Paul much trouble in Philippi, bringing Paul and his companion Silas before the magistrates, who gave the command to beat them and then threw them into jail.—Ac 16:12, 16-24.
SUCH THINGS ARE NOT FROM GOD, but from Satan.

David

Heiscoming, it is easy to just look at that one account and say, it says “Samuel,” without considering the Bible as a whole. But this forces us to ask some troubling questions.
If this were a game, as you like to say, it is your move.

August 23, 2006 at 9:56 am#25351

Participant

Quote (david @ Aug. 24 2006,01:06)

Guys. You may be going about this all wrong. As Rejoycesing said in her post:

You may want to change your tactics.

david

I don't think so david.

I give the same treatment to the Nazis, the Catholics, and denominations in general.

Can't you see how rediculous people like you make the gospel of Christ look to the world? Shame on you.

All they see are all these so-called Christians who have all these seperate church bodies, and then some expect non-believers to just go oh yes I can see that Jesus is the messiah and the JWs are the true Church, or I believe Jesus is the Messiah and the Catholics are the only Church, or I believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Mormons are the Church that Jesus Christ built, and I am willing to pay 10% of my income, and I am willing to be seperate even from those who profess Christ, but are not of OUR denomination.

Get real it doesn't work like that for most people. It works like that for those who are gullible or brought up that way. Anyone who deceives a little one should do God a service and either repent or tie a millstone round his own head.

Jesus said in John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

What about JUST the Jesus the Messiah part and be one with all other true believers. Forget about your selfish ambition, pride, temples, creeds, false names, and kingdoms and do it for God in the name of Jesus. Then you will be serving the true Kingdom. Otherwise all your works are vain.

Why do you have to do things in the name of the Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, or whatever your so-called church body happens to be called. Wake up. How many bodies are there?

You see this is the biggest problem when you serve a man made organisation. You not only trap yourself, but you lay a stumbling block to all those who would enter in, but also happen to come across your path.

Woe to those who lay those stumbling blocks. You go to the ends of the earth to make one disciple in another name and then you fill them with so much false teaching that you make them lay stumbling blocks too. Woe to you who preach another gospel and woe to you who work in another name.

You are really an enemy of the gospel, because you make it powerless to your hearers because it all looks so rediculous and then they find it HARD to believe that Jesus came from God when they see all the confusion by reason of the denominations that compete with each other. Never mind getting the world to repent, they won't even come to base one which is the belief that Jesus is the Christ when they see such a bad witness. So why would they repent if they don't believe?

Truly some do not believe because carriers and nutters of different gospels have gone out into the world and put many off. The last thing they want is to be converted into a nut. Who in their right mind wants to be deceived or be a nut?

Repent and serve the true God in the name of Jesus, not the name of the Jehovah Witnesses or whatever other fruitless names there are out there.

Give up wasting the time that God has given you and earn some gold or silver for your wages and be at one with the sons of God, not your own kingdoms built in your own names.

August 23, 2006 at 10:53 pm#25419

Participant

t8, much of what you say is wrong. Much of it sounds nice. But still wrong.

Quote

Why do you have to do things in the name of the Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, or whatever your so-called church body happens to be called. Wake up. How many bodies are there?

There is only one body of true believers. The thing is t8, you are one body unto yourself. No one in this world seems to believe just as you do, or have the same standards of conduct or think the same or are truly united with you. You and others who have their own beliefs are each a body unto yourselves.

The Bible:
JOHN 17:20-22
““I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

Jesus true followers would be “one.” They would be united in true worship. They wouldn't be divided on matters of belief, etc. You are.

As far as the:

Quote

I don't think so david.

Obviously, pointing out certain facts do not prove anything. But my point was that she had just said that so many people speaking negatively about JW and unreasonably so, was one reason for her accepting Jehovah's Witnesses as true Christians. A second later, people talking badly about JW's. ? ?

Quote

Can't you see how rediculous people like you make the gospel of Christ look to the world? Shame on you

I say these words with equal force to you, t8. You say one thing. Your so called brother says something else. When the world goes to war, will you kill your brother? In what sense are you truly united with your so called brother? Shame on you, and those like you who support the false belief that God doesn't have a united people and that each person can find “his” own way. The do your own thing mentality, is a popular one. It is an easy one. It is a satanic one.

I'd also like to say that several times you rightly have denounced tithing. JW's do not tithe. I'd just like to say that again, for the record.

Interesting, I just noticed you quoted the same scripture I did:

Quote

Jesus said in John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Do the Father and Son believe the same things? Are they united in love and truth and spirit? Jesus followers are to truly be one united worldwide “brotherhood.” There would not be division among them. They would be “one.”

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Why do you have to do things in the name of the Jehovah Witnesses

Jehovah's Witnesses is a descriptive name. We don't really do things in JW name, but in Jehovah's name. We witness in his name and hence, may properly be called his witnesses, even as the early Christians, Christ and the nation of Israel were.

“All the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever.”—Micah 4:5.

August 23, 2006 at 11:06 pm#25421

Participant

Quote (david @ Aug. 23 2006,02:12)

Why did Saul die?

Why would a loving Father forbid us from speaking to our loved ones, if that truly were possible?

Why does the Bible expressly forbid enquiring of spirit mediums?

I will meet you in the “soul” thread.

Quote

The bible says it was the soul of Samuel and Saul knew it to be Samuel.

But, I can't right now. I'm going to help someone work on his house. Bye for now.

david.

David, you did just as I said you would do and denied the Word of God. Here is what the Word of God say. And it plainly says that it was Samuel who was called. You can believe the Word of God or you can believe the words of men. You religion teaches that this was not Samuel, but a familar spirit. The Word of God says it was Samuel. Believe the Word of God.

1 Samuel 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbor, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

August 24, 2006 at 5:20 am#25474

Participant

H, perhaps you missed my next post. You only quote from my immediate response to your post, but may have failed to notice the much longer post where I too quoted 1 sam 28:4-20 in full. You also quoted this from the KJV, as though I didn't know it was there.
There are several questions and problems you left unanswered H.

You're only line of reasoning against all that the scriptures say about this is to say: “It says Samuel.” Well, as wrote to you in the “soul” thread, in a few places in the Bible, Jehovah is called a “rock.”

As easily as you decide to believe that it was really Samuel's departed soul, I could just as easily choose to believe that Jehovah is truly a rock. But OTHER SCRIPTURES should help us to understand that saying Jehovah is a rock is a metaphor. The rest of the Bible should help us reason out that Jehovah is “a spirit.”
To simply say, I'm going to believe that Jehovah is a rock, is to close your eyes.
H, I request that you open your eyes and read why I believe as I do. If you can answer the questions, the troubling questions that your belief raises, this would be a starting point for the conversation YOU want to have about this.
I think it would be better if we had this conversation in the “soul” thread.

david.

August 24, 2006 at 10:08 pm#25521