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Let me know how to find it. I am still sort of new on this site and it appears there are hundreds of threads.
Hi casey,
When you go to say BIBLICAL DOCTRINE go to the bottom Right and scroll back to THE BEGINNING and it will bring up all the posts in that section and you can do the same with any such grouping. I have posted there in THE WAY.Hey Nick,
Actually sir I would like to start a NEW thread starting from your entry on being born again and my reply on this thread, copied to the New thread.Quote “My “religion” sir? I hold that Christianity is the correct “religion” sir. . . . I am an Evangelical who believes in the annihilation of the soul. . . .I hold to the Five Points of Calvin – TULIP” Good, thankyou Casey. Now we all know who we are. I looked up TULIP, as I was unaware of it:
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)If you believe these things, Calvin's points, you will be at odds with some Biblical teachings for sure.
Oh, I'm sorry for pointing out your spelling errors. I'm worse than you at spelling. I've always spelt fortold wrong. I don't know why.
Quote You can say I hold to the same tenents that the original Reformers held to but where you and I part is that you hold your organization to be pretty much infallible and think their teachings are unquestionable when you do not realize sir that your organization made up of men adhere to many traditions of men.
I've never said that my organization is “infallible.” In fact, I'm certain that on this forum I've said that we are made up of imperfect men and are fallible. Those who hold to the traditions of men tend not to change. We've changed many beliefs (a proof of human fallibliilityness?) in an attempt to shed traditions of men, your Christmas being one tradition, as an example. I don't believe Jehovah's earthly organization is perfect. I just believe it is Jehovahs.Quote You make a HUGE PRESUMPTION here! ONE GROUP!!!!!!!!!!
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
Fine, tell me which group is doing a similar thing? Evangilism? Are they truly evangelizing? Are they even a united group? Evangelical Reformed church. Evangelical lutheran church. Evangelical alliance church. Evangelical united brethren church, etc. How can they accomplish such an important commision when they are not even united? They are divided.
Which group is unitedly preaching the good news of God's kingdom worldwide, in hundreds of languages?Quote I could not have said it better myself. His “ignorance” of the JW teaching leaves him in an unknown position and in my opinion not as equipped to give a review of the NWT.
I still don't see how you can say this? Either it matches the greek or it doesn't.Quote I you recall what I actually said was this sir: Quote
To have a “hyper-literal” translation makes a grammatically incorrect rendering, not following the rules of translating from one language to another. The most literal translation would be the NASB, which at times would be considered “wooden” but never awkward. For instance if you said “gracias” (thank you) I would say “de nada” (your welcome). A hyper literal would be “of nothing” not “your welcome” which does not make any sense at all sir.so your:
doesn't logic suggest that the NASB is even more excessively “hyper” literal? Think about what you said.
…does not make any since. The NASB is the MOST Literal but unlike the hyper literal of the NWT it follows the grammatical rules of grammer. Making sense of the English and not straining at a gnat to fit the conjecture into the axiom of “hyper”.
So the NASB is the “Most” literal. The NWT is only hyper (excesively) literal. Um??? How can one translation be the “most” literal while another is hyper literal (excessively, or overly literal)???Quote Does Romans 9-11 ring a bell. You think God has just washed his hands of His original chosen people…a nation just like your supposed Judges in New York claim to be that “nation”.
It does ring a bell. Let's discuss it, if you like, and compare it to the rest of the Bible.Quote You interpret Romans 10 that if you call upon the Name of Jehovah you will be saved. However Paul is applying the Name to Jesus.
Really? Where is he quoting from? What does the original say?Why would you choose a wolf as your avatar?
The unscrupulous princes of Judah (Eze 22:27), false prophets (Mt 7:15), vicious opposers of the Christian ministry (Mt 10:16; Lu 10:3), as well as false teachers that would endanger the Christian congregation from within (Ac 20:29, 30), are compared to wolves. Why this avatar? Does it mean anything?david
Hi David:
God, has shown me that when I approach a pastor who is teaching something that is different than my understanding of the scriptures that I do so not judging them to be wrong, but with the mentality that I could possibly be the one who is wrong. The purpose of discussing our differences is then not to prove who is right or wrong but to try to come into unity so that we can preach and teach the same message so that people will see that God is a reality and that they will want to be reconciled to Him through our Lord Jesus, God's only begotten Son and His Christ. The meaning of the name “Jesus” is “Jehovah is salvation”, and God's purpose for this world is the salvation of His children from the consequences of sin which is eternal separation from Him.
When God showed me this method of approaching a pastor, I thought what a wonderful way of approaching all of these different denominations and religions, each of course, who claim that they are the ones who are teaching the truth. And so, I wrote to the Jehovah Witness, the Church of Later Day Saints, the Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church, the Jewish Rabbis in NY, and the American Muslims using the approach that God had given me.
Well, the only response that I did get was from the writing department of the WATCHTOWER, and there response was as follows: “In your letter of July 18, 2000, you ask for our comments on your views of various bible subjects. While we appreciate your sharing your views with us. However, we are not in a position to comment on all the numerous points you list as to your understanding of the Bible. Evidently, you have already received some publications from Jehovah's Witnesses. The subjects you raise have been addressed in detail in our publications, and so we suggest that you speak with Jehovah's Witnessess locally and they can show you information in our publications about these matters. However, we will provide some comments in answer to you inquiry on why the NWT renders Kyrios as “Jehovah” at Romans 10:13″.
They continue, “In writing his admonition at Romans 10:13, the apostle Paul was quoting from Joel 2:32”. They sent me some literature trying to justify this, but my letter in response to them was that I believed that Romans 10:13 was a continuation of what was being stated in Romans 10:9-10. I stated: “When you call on the name of the Lord, if it is referring to Jesus, you are calling on the name of Jehovah because the definition of the name Jesus is 'Jehovah is salvation'. Acts 4:12 states: 'Furthermore, there is not salvationin anyone else for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. In Matthew 28:19 Jesus commands the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the name of all three is 'Jesus' after the purpose which is salvation. In Acts 2:38, Peter tells those believing Jews to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. He does not tell them to be baptized in three separate names, but only in the name of Jesus Christ…”.
What is your response to the question of Romans 10:13? Jesus states: “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me”. (John 14:6)
Without his shed blood there is not remission of sins, and therefore, whoever is not willing to subject themselves to God through him cannot possibly have a personal relationship with God. God cannot be the Father of their spirit. Romans 8:9 states: “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is not of his”.
So the question to you is: “Is God the Father of your Spirit?” If so, we are brothers in Christ, even if we may have a different understanding on some scriptures, but if your answer to the question is no, then salvation is available to all who desire to come to God on His terms.
I agree with you that we should not worship Jesus as God, but we cannot come to God unless we are subjected to God through him. Jesus asked us as his disciples to honor him as we honor the Father (John 5:23), and he said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”. (John 14:15)
I believe that the “trinity doctrine” and “the doctrine of original sin” that “so called mainstream Christiandom teaches are misunderstandings of the scriptures, and reading your post on the 144,000 I am more inclined to agree with you than with what others are teaching, but I will have to read your post more carefully before I can say that I totally agree with what you are saying.
The NWT renders John 1:1 as: “In the beginning the Word was and Word was with God and the Word was a god”. This implies that there is more than one God although you say “god”. We know that there is no God but Jehovah.
John 14:16 in the NWT reads: “and I will request the Father and He will give you another helper to be with you forever, the spirit of truth which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. You know it because it remains with you and is in you”. The disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit (who is the Spirit of Truth) until the day of Pentacost. (Acts 2:1-4)
Jesus states in Matthew 28:19, “All power is given unto me in heaven and earth”, and so he began to reign at that time.
On page 39 of your booklet entitled “Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life, it states that “Jesus was called God's “only begotten Son: because Jehovah created him directly”. My understanding is that Jesus was not created but that he was born of the Spirit of God. This means that God is his Father, and consequently, his body is God's own flesh and blood.
My understanding is that the soul that is saved has eternal life (John 3:16, 17:3), but that the soul of the unsaved will be destroyed (Malachi 4:1, Matt. 10:28, and Jude 7)
My understanding is that the Nephilim in Gen. 6:1-5 are bullies or giants who were the offspring of the sons of God who were the lineage of Seth and the Canaanite women. I doubt that the sons of God refer to angelic beings because Jesus states that those that are worthy of the resurrection will neither marry or be given in marriage but will be as the angels of heaven. Indicating by this statement that angelic beings do not have the capacity to reproduce. (Matt. 22:30)
Relative to blood, there are three scriptures telling us to abstain from blood. The first is that we should not shed man's blood because man was created in the image of God. Secondly, the commandment to the nation of Israel was that they should not eat the blood of the animal because the blood was given for the atonement of sins. (Lev. 17:11) And lastly, we should refrain from having sex with our wives when they are having their menstrual period. (Ezekiel 18:6) The bible does not say anything about abstaining from blood transfusions. It is true that blood transfusions were not given with any measure of success until the 20th century. In my judgment, if a person needs blood in order to sustain his life in the flesh, it would be like not giving him food prevent him from starving to death. Perhaps, you can enlighten me as to why JWs teach that you should not receive blood transfusions.
I believe that JWs teach that it is wrong to pledge allegeiance to flag of the US. I believe that by pledging allegiance, I am simply stating that I will obey the Laws of my country as long as they do not violate the Eternal Law of God. (Romans 13:1-7)
There are several scriptures which state that Jesus was crucified and about his cross as well as scriptues that state that he was hung on a tree. This should't be a matter of issue between Christians. It does not matter if was on a cross or on a stake. The thing that matters is that he died the death of a condemned sinner, although he was without sin, for all who
will accept his love for them.I understand that JWs do not celebrate birthdays including Christmas, the day that we have set aside to celebrate the Lord's birthday. Well no problem with this as long as you do not judge others for celebrating birthdays. Personally, I celebrate Jesus birthday everyday. Of course, we, as Christians, do not celebrate birthdays as the heathen celebrate them, with strong drink, and dancing girls etc.
Ephesians 4:11-15 states: “And he gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:”
Do the JWs adhere to the above organizational structure?
David, I went to the local elders of the JWs with these questions as the letter from the Watchtower headquarters directed. They did not answer my questions, but instead accused me of being a “false prophet”.
I know who I am in Christ Jesus, and so, I am not troubled by this accusation, and my only concern is that God's people come out of Babylonia which is confusion so that people will see that God is a reality and want to be reconciled to Him through Jesus, His only begotten Son and Christ.
I love you and I want the very best that God has for you and your family.
David! Good to hear from you sir. I thought maybe I convinced you and turned you from the error of your ways sir
…just kidding. You avoided a very large amount of my reply. I will detail which ones in specific in CAPS.
Quote
The “work” I was clearly speaking of was the global witness that Jesus fortold, the witness about God's kingdom which really only one group on earth is unitedly doing. (mat 24:14.)YOU DID SAY THOUGH I GRANT YOU:
“Fine, tell me which group is doing a similar thing? Evangilism? Are they truly evangelizing? Are they even a united group? Evangelical Reformed church. Evangelical lutheran church. Evangelical alliance church. Evangelical united brethren church, etc. How can they accomplish such an important commision when they are not even united? They are divided.
Which group is unitedly preaching the good news of God's kingdom worldwide, in hundreds of languages?”WELL YES SIR I AGREE, YOUR ORGANIZATION IS INDEED UNITED, BUT UNITED TO WHAT END? “IF” AND LET ME SAY AGAIN NOT PRESUMING YOUR ARE WRONG BUT “IF” THE JW'S ARE WRONG, THEN THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND WILL ALL FALL INTO THE SAME DITCH. SCARY!
I SAID:
“So the NASB is the “Most” literal. The NWT is only hyper (excesively) literal. Um??? How can one translation be the “most” literal while another is hyper literal (excessively, or overly literal)???”DAVID I AM BEING REDUNDANT HERE BUT FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR QUESTION – AGAGIN, IF YOU RECALL THE HYPER-LITERALISM TRANSLATES AWKWARD. AWKWARD: DOES NOT SPEAK PROPER ENGLISH: IS GRAMMATICALLY INCORRECT. AM I MAKING SENSE. THE NASB IS LITERAL TO THE POINT OF TAKEN THE GREEK WORDS AND FOLLOWING THE SENTENCE STRUCTURE UNLIKE EUGENSE NIDA'S DYNAMIC EQUIVILANCE OR THOUGHT FOR THOUGH – MEANING FOR MEANING. SO NWT PASSAGES TAKE LITERALNESS (TO MODIFY AND FIT THEIR VIEW I MIGHT ADD) AT THE EXPENSE OF SPEAKING OR TRANSLATING PROPER ENGLISH.
FOR INSTANCE EARLIER TO YOUR REPLY:
You must render “sacred service”…hence your “hyper”-ness literal! What would you render the phrase “sacred service”?
TO THE BELOW YOU HAD NOTHING TO SAY?
I believe I answered your question in my reply above. Let me make a point here sir. As far as I know, there are NO SCHOLARS (as far as I know) in the field of the Watchtower. NONE! What does that say? But again, as far as I know the JW do not allow their members to read literature of the opposite views. So in a sense you are in disobediance. At first the Watchtower would not allow their followers to view the www, now they can at discretion. When I have had some members of the past come to my house, and I made a deal with them, “I will read and study your material if you study mine” to which they would reply, “we do not read other literature since we do not believe you are in 'the' truth.” So having said that, their are no Scholars. There are no members of the kingdom halls all over the world that hold a B.A. – B.S. – M Div – Doctorate in Divinty – and I could go on and on. I am not saying they do not hold degrees in business or whatever but in areas of more importance they do not.
“What it proves, CASEY, is that the NWT uses the most basic word to describe proskyneo, rather than picking and choosing where it should be “worship” or “bowed down” or “honoured.”
AND YET YOU NEVER LET THE GREEK BE TRANSLATED TO WORSHIP FOR CHRIST. I THINK THERE IS A REASON THERE.
THE BELOW YOU HAD NOTHING TO SAY?
It uses “worship” with reference to God Almighty, and uses “worship” in places where what the person doing was clearly wrong, hence, clearly something that only Jehovah was worthy of
…and yet you nonchalantly passed over:
Quote
True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3)How can you reconcile these two factors is beyond me. Maybe your view is just as “mysterious” as the Trinity? Worship is in reference to God Almighty but then use you say:
Quote
‘and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus’JW speak of the Trinity as illogical. I say your explanation or should I say refutation of Christ not being worshipped is illogical. Christ is not worshipped but the act of bowing down to Jehovah God is applied to Christ. From those words I would have to say anything and everything of Christ not being worshipped has been null and void and not worth much more of my time in explaining that Christ is worshipped for YOU YOURSELF just said it!
THE BELOW YOU HAD NOTHING TO SAY?
YOU SAID:
“Next think about this: There are 200 years from this little flock being a literal 144,000 (we are also in agreement) and the witnesses that believe they are the elect of the remnant spoken of here think they are of this small number when nineteen hundred years have gone by, but for some reason God chose to have the majority of these elect to be in this century??? Abrurd.”I SAID: “I don’t know if it is the majority” Ten witnesses come and visit me. Two of those witnesses claim to be the “anointed” in five weeks.
52wks in a year = an average of 100 witnesses a year and 20 elect.
20 elect at 1800 years (average) = 360,000Now this is just Dallas Texas I am speaking of. JW’s claim how many members “around the world” ? 6 million and 600,000!
There are maybe a few thousand here in Dallas alone. And yet, I have around 20 a year visit me???
AGAIN?
We do not disagree there are context’s where worship does not mean worship but you stated it yourself:
Quote
True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3)You say:
Quote
If you knew us a little better, you would know we are going on Jesus words. He tells us who to worship.
‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’—JesusI SAID:
I believe I know you pretty good. Not you per se but your organization. You see I have read literally thousands of pages in just your literature alone. I have spent probably an average of over fifty hours discussing with witnesses at my house and abroad even at times in their own domain (kingdom halls) not to debate but to inquire. I have likewise read the amount of pages and spent about as many hours on the opposing side to get a fair balance. I did not like most people do on “my” side try to find out the witnesses from “my” side of literature for that would not have been a fair treatment.
In regard to worshipping Jehovah alone you are just following the apostate Jews. You interpret Romans 10 that if you call upon the Name of Jehovah you will be saved. However Paul is applying the Name to Jesus. For in Acts 4 we read that there is NO OTHER NAME BY WHICH MAN MUST BE SAVED! The Watchtower is inferring the Name YHWH in the Roman text. Now the original quote of Paul here is indeed the Name of YHWH when discussing the passage of the OT. However Paul was speaking Greek to a Greek Church and was using the Name of Jesus. If you keep it in context following Paul’s sermon from Romans 1 you will see the passage is referring to Jesus and not Jehovah. The Jews agree with you here sir. YHWH is to be glorified but YHWH
did not die for He cannot die. He sent His Son to die so that through the Son (John 14:6) we could come to Him. So you cannot skip the Son and go to Jehovah. Are the Jews saved? Do they not glorify (the Orthodox Jews mind you) Jehovah/Yahweh (correctly transliterated…there is a w not a v). Do you not realize that an Orthodox Jewish child has the Torah memorized by the age of ten? All in the Name of Yahweh!YOU DID REPLY, THANK YOU YET YOU DID NOT EXPLAIN?:
I SAID:
You interpret Romans 10 that if you call upon the Name of Jehovah you will be saved. However Paul is applying the Name to Jesus.
YOU REPLIED:
Really? Where is he quoting from? What does the original say?
NOW LET’S SEE WHAT I SAID:
In regard to worshipping Jehovah alone you are just following the apostate Jews. You interpret Romans 10 that if you call upon the Name of Jehovah you will be saved.
NOTICE HERE: However Paul is applying the Name to Jesus. For in Acts 4 we read that there is NO OTHER NAME BY WHICH MAN MUST BE SAVED!
AGAIN I WILL REITERATE: FOLLOWING PAUL’S ARGUMENT OF ROMANS ONE THAT ALL MEN ARE EQUALLY IN ONE STANDING BEFORE GOD – EVIL, WICKED, DISOBEDIENT – ESTRANGED ; SEPARATED.
ROMANS 2 DISCUSS THE CONCLUSION OF CHAPTER ONE
ROMANS 3, 4, AND 5 SPEAK OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WE HAVE IN CHRIST.
ROMANS 6 GIVES US A RHETORICAL COMMENT, “SHALL WE SIN MORE SO GRACE MAY ABOUND?” AND PAUL GIVES US THE ANSWER
ROMANS 7 SPEAKS OF THE HUMANNESS IN WHICH WE ALL STAND AND THE WAR BETWEEN OBEDIENCE, SIN, AND GRACE.
ROMANS 8 SPEAKS OF THE GLORIFULL RICHES WE HAVE IN CHRIST.ROMANS 9 SPEAKS OF THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.
Now I have to comment. You said my stance in the five points of Calvin are unscriptural. What will you do with Romans 9 then? BUT YOU WILL SAY TO ME, ‘WHY DOES HE STILL FIND FAULT, FOR WHO CAN RESIST HIS WILL’? BUT WHO ARE YOU OH MAN TO REPLY TO GOD THIS WAY? SHALL WHAT IS FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY DID YOU MAKE ME THIS WAY? DOES NOT THE POTTERER HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE SOME VESSELS FOR HONORABLE USE AND SOME FOR COMMON PURPOSES. FOR WHAT IF GOD WISHING TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN PATIENTLY WAITED FOR THE VESSELS OF EVIL THAT HE MAY HAVE MERCY ON THE VESSELS OF MERCY. SO GOD CAN HARDEN WHOM HE WILLS AND HAS MERCY ON WHOM HE WILL. FOR THE SCRIPTURE SAYS, ‘I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I WILL HAVE MERCY AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL HAVE COMPASSION” FOR I RAISED YOU (PHAROAH) UP FOR THIS PURPOSE THAT MY NAME MAY BE KNOWN THROUGHOUT THE EARTH AND DISPLAY MY POWER. (My paraphrase)NOW WE GET TO ROMANS 10: I DARE YOU TO QUOTE IT!
ARE WE FINALLY GETTING TO THE END FOR PAUL TO SAY ALL THIS ABOUT CHRIST AND THEN ALL THE SUDDEN CHANGE SUBJECTS AND MENTION JEHOVAH.The Watchtower is inferring the Name YHWH in the Roman text. Now the original quote of Paul here is indeed the Name of YHWH when discussing the passage of the OT. However Paul was speaking Greek to a Greek Church and was using the Name of Jesus. If you keep it in context following Paul’s sermon from Romans 1 you will see the passage is referring to Jesus and not Jehovah.
Ok, I hate typing in CAPS.Why would you choose a wolf as your avatar?
OH COME ON DAVID. I KNOW A PREMILLENIAL MAN SUCH AS YOURSELF WOULD KNOW THIS? THE SHEEP AND THE WOLD LYING TOGETHER? AND, IT'S PRETTY, AND THERE ARE FEW ICONS THAT ARE EVEN WORTH PUTTING.
942767: First off, strange name? What does it mean?
Quote God, has shown me that when I approach a pastor who is teaching something that is different than my understanding of the scriptures that I do so not judging them to be wrong, but with the mentality that I could possibly be the one who is wrong. The purpose of discussing our differences is then not to prove who is right or wrong but to try to come into unity so that we can preach and teach the same message so that people will see that God is a reality and that they will want to be reconciled to Him through our Lord Jesus, God's only begotten Son and His Christ. The meaning of the name “Jesus” is “Jehovah is salvation”, and God's purpose for this world is the salvation of His children from the consequences of sin which is eternal separation from Him. When God showed me this method of approaching a pastor, I thought what a wonderful way of approaching all of these different denominations and religions, each of course, who claim that they are the ones who are teaching the truth. And so, I wrote to the Jehovah Witness, the Church of Later Day Saints, the Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church, the Jewish Rabbis in NY, and the American Muslims using the approach that God had given me.
Ironic, I do the same thing! I have had the same reaction from the witnesses! I am not sure why but they are strongly unwilling to actually talk from a standpoint that they just might be wrong. You and I with humility become teachable but hit a wall when they don't want to discuss. It is solely a one way conversation and that leads us nowhere.
Quote I agree with you that we should not worship Jesus as God I am curious. In your quest for truth how did you come to this conclusion. I orignially came to this site in lieu of my struggle with the Trinity. If you read all my threads you will see why I think Christ is worshipped. Now your words “as God” I am not quite sure of. Here is logica defined. It is the law of probability and the law of contradiciton.
If A = B and B = C then A = C.
If God is worshipped alone. Jesus is woshipped. Jesus is God.Law of contradiction: A cannot equal NON A. Jesus cannot be worshipped and not be God.
Quote the doctrine of original sin” that “so called mainstream Christiandom teaches are misunderstandings of the scriptures Original sin is Scriptural. Romans 6 sir. First man Adam many inherited death. Last man Adam many inherit life. I think maybe your journey into Islam influenced your Scriptural hermeneutics. Need to shake that off.
[QUOTEreading your post on the 144,000 I am more inclined to agree with you than with what others are teaching][/QUOTE]
On what grounds? What I mean is why do you think they are correct. I really haven't decided either way on that. However on the JW view of the 144,000 I say this:
Quote I SAID: “I don’t know if it is the majority” Ten witnesses come and visit me. Two of those witnesses claim to be the “anointed” in five weeks.
52wks in a year = an average of 100 witnesses a year and 20 elect.
20 elect at 1800 years (average) = 360,000Now this is just Dallas Texas I am speaking of. JW’s claim how many members “around the world” ? 6 million and 600,000!
There are maybe a few thousand here in Dallas alone. And yet, I have around 20 a year visit me???
Funny, I have concluded everything else you have said about the Watchtower doctrine.
Christmas? Colossians ends that problem.
Blood transfusion? Seems a moot point. I agree, never thought of it as a starving person. Good analogy. I think I will use that from now on.
The flag? Yes, I am proud of my country. My country defends Israel.
I likewise hold to annihilationism…but
The Cross??? Ok, if you study secular history you will find out the the standard form of crucifixion is the t and T not I. Now the cross is mentioned time and again. It does seem to be a nonissue somewhat but to me it just shows how far away from Christianity the witnesses will go in making an organization. They make it pagan in any way they can.
I look forward for corresponding with youl.
All you guys are going cause me to take the time and purchase the Internet at my home.
Quote (Casey S Smith 29 @ Oct. 08 2006,00:33) 942767: First off, strange name? What does it mean?
Strange avatar. Might scare a few sheep away?
Quote THE BELOW YOU HAD NOTHING TO SAY? YOU SAID:
“Next think about this: There are 200 years from this little flock being a literal 144,000 (we are also in agreement) and the witnesses that believe they are the elect of the remnant spoken of here think they are of this small number when nineteen hundred years have gone by, but for some reason God chose to have the majority of these elect to be in this century??? Abrurd.”I SAID: “I don’t know if it is the majority” Ten witnesses come and visit me. Two of those witnesses claim to be the “anointed” in five weeks.
52wks in a year = an average of 100 witnesses a year and 20 elect.
20 elect at 1800 years (average) = 360,000Now this is just Dallas Texas I am speaking of. JW’s claim how many members “around the world” ? 6 million and 600,000!
There are maybe a few thousand here in Dallas alone. And yet, I have around 20 a year visit me???
Part of the reason I had nothing to say to you on several points was: I'd rather actually discuss one thing at a time, as I've said 3 times now. Also, some of the stuff, like the above, are simply, I dont' know, crazy. Thirdly, I had very little time just then.
It's much easier to discuss “worship” in the worship thread and something else in the something else thread. In this thread, it seems I often am having many things thrown at me at once and it's hard to give a detailed answer and actually discuss anything.Quote OH COME ON DAVID. I KNOW A PREMILLENIAL MAN SUCH AS YOURSELF WOULD KNOW THIS? THE SHEEP AND THE WOLD LYING TOGETHER? AND, IT'S PRETTY, AND THERE ARE FEW ICONS THAT ARE EVEN WORTH PUTTING.
Yes, of course that occured to me. It's about the only nice usage of wolves in the Bible. Most often they are portrayed badly, yet you choose the wolf. If you're portraying the sheep and the wolf lying together, does that make the rest of us sheep? Because we're not yet at the stage where sheep and the wolf lye together. So, we're reasonably nervous.OK. Roman 10:13. A couple of people have mentioned it. So let's start there.
JOEL 2:28-32
““And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see. And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit. “And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. And it must occur that EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF JEHOVAH WILL GET AWAY SAFE; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.””Ok, so we have Joel saying those words.
Now, let's look at Acts, for a second:
ACTS 2:16-21
“On the contrary, THIS IS WHAT WAS SAID THROUGH THE PROPHET JOEL,, ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist; the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives. And EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF JEHOVAH WILL BE SAVED.”’”So, I don't know what your Bible has there. Most Bible's of course, don't have God's name anywhere in the Greek scriptures, even when the Bible writers are quoting from the Hebrew [edited from “greek”, my mistake] scriptures. In those places, would they have altered the quote and taken God's name out? Doubtful. But anyway, back to this scripture.
On the day of Pentecost, Peter spoke of “the prophet Joel” and applied one of his prophecies. Paul quoted the same prophecy and showed its fulfillment toward both Jew and non-Jew. (Joel 2:28-32; Acts 2:16-21; Rom. 10:13)
So, in my Bible, it is taken that Roman 10:13 is also a quote from Joel, and we find the name Jehovah.
Casey stated:
“The NWT has some verses that just up until recently were considered wrong. Only now the NIV, NASB, NRSV, ESV, HCSB, and other modern versions are likewise translating these same verses the same way!Hi Nine.
You said:Quote God, has shown me that when I approach a pastor who is teaching something that is different than my understanding of the scriptures that I do so not judging them to be wrong, but with the mentality that I could possibly be the one who is wrong. The purpose of discussing our differences is then not to prove who is right or wrong but to try to come into unity so that we can preach and teach the same message so that people will see that God is a reality and that they will want to be reconciled to Him through our Lord Jesus, God's only begotten Son and His Christ. Your humble mentality is most noble. But I question the idea of coming to unity (what I can only think of as a false unity) for the purpose of showing Christ united and thus helping ones to come to Christ.
Unity is a terrific thing among brothers.
“How good and how pleasant it is For brothers to dwell together in unity.”–Ps 133:1
Discussing the Bible open mindedly and trying to see why the other believes as he does is well and fine. But what happens when one (such as t8) says: “God doesn't torture people alive in fire” and another (Nick) says: “Yes he does.” Where is the unity? Do they make some comprimise? How will the unity come? One of them has to be wrong.
I realize that religious disunity has caused many to stumble. So has the bad fruitage of many who say they are Christians. They're acts of loose conduct causing the “way of the truth to be spoken of abusively.” (2 pet 2:2) We remember that Jesus came to cause division, with a man and his son, a mother and law with her daughter in law, etc. The truth divides people. Some see it. Others let themselves remain blinded by Satan (2 cor 4:4)On Rom 10:18, you quote:
Quote Acts 4:12 states: 'Furthermore, there is not salvationin anyone else for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.
Right, Jesus is the only one with a name that has been given AMONG MEN by which we might be saved. Of course, “The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous runs and is given protection.”–Prv 18:10Quote What is your response to the question of Romans 10:13?
In the post above, to Cas
ey, I mentioned what I guess would be the reason for having that name there.Quote So the question to you is: “Is God the Father of your Spirit?” If so, we are brothers in Christ, even if we may have a different understanding on some scriptures, but if your answer to the question is no, then salvation is available to all who desire to come to God on His terms.
I understand the clever tactic of Satan that it's a good thing if we could all be one happy family, doesn't matter what you think, what you do, everything is acceptable. Do your own thing. I also understand how some on here are trying to figure out who their “brother” really is. How big of a difference in believe is allowed, or what different standards of conduct are acceptable, before someone is considered of the world? We know just saying you believe in Jesus means nothing. Many say that. Yet Mat 7:13.
I realize that there have been different understandings over time and no one is infallible. But in the first century, if you wanted to be approved of, or friends with God, wouldn't you have to associate with fellow believers and be a part of God's organization? Or would you reject it and do your own thing, worship God in your own way. God has always had a people. It would make sense to try to find that people and be with them.Quote I agree with you that we should not worship Jesus as God, but we cannot come to God unless we are subjected to God through him. Jesus asked us as his disciples to honor him as we honor the Father (John 5:23), and he said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”. (John 14:15)
Right.Quote I believe that the “trinity doctrine” and “the doctrine of original sin” that “so called mainstream Christiandom teaches are misunderstandings of the scriptures, and reading your post on the 144,000 I am more inclined to agree with you than with what others are teaching, but I will have to read your post more carefully before I can say that I totally agree with what you are saying.
Since no one here, wants to pick a subject and stick with it for a page or two, I think I'm going to focus on the 144,000. Before, i just randomly looked for all the scriptures I could find that dealt with the kingdom being a government. This time, I'll dig a little deeper.
Also, it's odd that you or anyone would say you tend to agree with me more on this than what others are teaching.Quote I doubt that the sons of God refer to angelic beings because Jesus states that those that are worthy of the resurrection will neither marry or be given in marriage but will be as the angels of heaven. Indicating by this statement that angelic beings do not have the capacity to reproduce. (Matt. 22:30)
The angels in heaven don't marry. They also don't eat physical food, or do they? Yet, they could take on human form and eat. (Gen 18) They could sin and take on human form and have sexual relations.
The angels in heaven don't marry. The ones who came to the earth, aren't in heaven anymore.Quote Perhaps, you can enlighten me as to why JWs teach that you should not receive blood transfusions.
I created a thread on this subject. Try searching “blood,” or maybe “abstain.”Quote I believe that JWs teach that it is wrong to pledge allegeiance to flag of the US. I believe that by pledging allegiance, I am simply stating that I will obey the Laws of my country as long as they do not violate the Eternal Law of God. (Romans 13:1-7)
Here's something that I don't think has ever been discussed here.“[Historian] Carlton Hayes pointed out long ago that the ritual of flag-worship and oath-taking in an American school is a religious observance. . . . And that these daily rituals are religious has been at last affirmed by the Supreme Court in a series of cases.”—The American Character (New York, 1956), D. W. Brogan, pp. 163, 164.
“Early flags were almost purely of a religious character. . . . The national banner of England for centuries—the red cross of St. George—was a religious one; in fact the aid of religion seems ever to have been sought to give sanctity to national flags, and the origin of many can be traced to a sacred banner.”—Encyclopædia Britannica (1946), Vol. 9, p. 343.
“In a public ceremony presided over by the vice president of the [Military Supreme] Court, on the 19th of November, honors were shown to the Brazilian flag. . . . After the flag was hoisted, Minister General of the Army Tristao de Alencar Araripe expressed himself concerning the commemoration in this manner: ‘ . . . flags have become a divinity of patriotic religion which imposes worship . . . The flag is venerated and worshiped . . . The flag is worshiped, just as the Fatherland is worshiped.’”—Diario da Justiça (Federal Capital, Brazil), February 16, 1956, p. 1906.
With reference to patriotic ceremonies, what does secular history say about the attitude of those known as early Christians?
“Christians refused to . . . sacrifice to the emperor’s genius—roughly equivalent today to refusing to salute the flag or repeat the oath of allegiance. . . . Very few of the Christians recanted, although an altar with a fire burning on it was generally kept in the arena for their convenience. All a prisoner had to do was scatter a pinch of incense on the flame and he was given a Certificate of Sacrifice and turned free. It was also carefully explained to him that he was not worshiping the emperor; merely acknowledging the divine character of the emperor as head of the Roman state. Still, almost no Christians availed themselves of the chance to escape.”—Those About to Die (New York, 1958), D. P. Mannix, pp. 135, 137.
“The act of emperor worship consisted in sprinkling a few grains of incense or a few drops of wine on an altar which stood before an image of the emperor. Perhaps at our long remove from the situation we see in the act nothing different from . . . lifting the hand in salute to the flag or to some distinguished ruler of state, an expression of courtesy, respect, and patriotism. Possibly a good many people in the first century felt just that way about it but not so the Christians. They viewed the whole matter as one of religious worship, acknowledging the emperor as a deity and therefore being disloyal to God and Christ, and they refused to do it.”—The Beginnings of the Christian Religion (New Haven, Conn.; 1958), M. F. Eller, pp. 208, 209.
1 Cor. 10:14: “Flee from idolatry.” (Also Exodus 20:4, 5)
1 John 5:21: “Little children, guard yourselves from idols.”
Luke 4:8: “In reply Jesus said to him: ‘It is written, “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”’”
Think of the Bible account of the three Hebrew yo
uths Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who refused to bow to an image representing the Babylonian State. (Daniel 3:1-30) Some may not relate paying homage to an image to saluting the flag.
However, note what author Edward Gaffney had to say in an interview by U.S. Catholic. He mentioned that when his daughter told him after her first day at public school that she had learned a “new prayer at school,” he asked her to repeat it to him. “She put her hand on her heart,” said Gaffney, “and proudly began, ‘I pledge allegiance to the flag . . .’” He continued: “All of a sudden, it kicked in. The Jehovah’s Witnesses were right. There is an aspect of national spirituality that’s being shaped in our schools at a very early stage—an unquestioning transcendent loyalty.”Just as a note, Jehovah's Witnesses were really the only ones in that country not waving around Hitlers flag, or saluting it.
The Open Forum, published by the Southern California Branch of the American Civil Liberties Union, stated in 1941: “It is high time that we came to our senses regarding this matter of flag-saluting. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not disloyal Americans. . . . They are not given to law-breaking in general, but lead decent, orderly lives, contributing their share to the common good.” In 1976 a newspaper columnist in Argentina, in the Buenos Aires Herald, frankly observed that Witness “beliefs are only offensive to those who think patriotism is chiefly a matter of flag-waving and anthem-singing, not a matter of the heart.” He added: “Hitler and Stalin found [the Witnesses] indigestible, and treated them abominably. Lots of other dictators yearning for conformity have tried to suppress them. And failed.”
Our allegiance is primarliy to God's kingdom. We Salute Christ as king of that kingdom.
Quote I understand that JWs do not celebrate birthdays including Christmas, the day that we have set aside to celebrate the Lord's birthday. Well no problem with this as long as you do not judge others for celebrating birthdays. Personally, I celebrate Jesus birthday everyday. Jesus told us to memorialize his death. His birth was a necessity but it was his death that meant so much. We are not commanded to partake in the heathen celebration of the dies natalis solis invicti or even the Roman Saturnalia which has been renamed “Christmas.” Nor is lying something Jesus is all that fond of. Yet, the lies. It's interesting that Jesus said:
JOHN 18:37
“For THIS I HAVE BEEN BORN, and for this I have come into the world, that I should BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH.”
And so if someone goes and celebrates his birth by propagating lies (and there are many of them surrounding Christmas. I'm not just talking santa.) then I don't know he'd take kindly to it. If someone who doesn't like birthdays (check out their background and histroy too) and we decide to celebrate his birth on the day of his enemy by giving not him, but each other's gifts, I'm not so sure he'd like that.It's 1:30. I need sleep.
dvaid
David. Due to time constraints I cannot thoroughly reply to your comments since I am at work. I will take it home tonight and analyze it.
You are implying that our multiple topics on one thread is unable to be explained. The funny thing is that all of “us” do not seem to have any trouble commenting on each subject with your quesitons in rebuttal.
You mentioned you would rather stick to worship but I am done with that. You said in not so many Words that Hebrews 1:8 shows the application to Jehovah is implied to Christ. I would say to continue down that path would be circular reasoning.
You just brushed pass my mathmatic calculation of the “annointed” as “crazy”. I think if you would truly read what I wrote, you will see what I had to say holds a strong foundation of showing your “annointed” 144,000 witnesses holds not water.
Your explanation of “calling upon the Name of the LORD (Jehovah) did not truly explain what we have written here. If you follow Paul's thoughts on Christ all the way up to Romans 10 you will see he was saying that calling upon the Name of Jesus is the same as calling upon the Name of YHWH. hence = God (Trinity?).
If your defense if that calling upon the Name of Jehovah in a NT context is the same as the OT context then you are just simply agreeing with the Jews. So, you should no longer be called “Christ”ian but “Jehovah”ian or Jewish. JW's go around the gate of Christ. They climb through the back door.
Quote You are implying that our multiple topics on one thread is unable to be explained. The funny thing is that all of “us” do not seem to have any trouble commenting on each subject with your quesitons in rebuttal.
I'm implying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that it's difficult to give a proper responce to so many things when they're all being thrown at you at once. There are several of you. There is one of me. I can only catch one ball at a time. You began that post explaining that you have “time constraints.” well I do to. And as I told people on this forum about two weeks ago, my time constraints would be getting much more demanding, because my work has changed.Quote You just brushed pass my mathmatic calculation of the “annointed” as “crazy”. I think if you would truly read what I wrote, you will see what I had to say holds a strong foundation of showing your “annointed” 144,000 witnesses holds not water.
Again. Crazy. It's crazy because your math is all wrong. Where do you live anyway? In some dormatory filled with thousands of JW's? That's the only way what you said would make any sense.Quote YOU SAID:
“Next think about this: There are 200 years from this little flock being a literal 144,000 (we are also in agreement) and the witnesses that believe they are the elect of the remnant spoken of here think they are of this small number when nineteen hundred years have gone by, but for some reason God chose to have the majority of these elect to be in this century??? Abrurd.”REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(At Revelation 14:1-3 these “bought from the earth” to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.)–You'll notice they are from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. So, they're not all fleshly Israelites–these ones who are made to be a kingdom of priests.
–Secondly, the amount of people living today, I believe is much much greater than those who lived in the first century–hence, the numbers should be much greater.
–Remember, the apostasy was “already at work” in the days of the apostles. It wasn't long after the apostles died that divisions formed, false Christians formed.You know, the Bible does speak of the last days, the conclusion of the system of things, the time of the end, etc. Yes, it was written then, but it does look into our time. We live in special times.
Were the dark ages special times? How many people back then were of the elect? How many people then got to see a Bible?
It's not unusal for a great majority of the annointed to be of our time, since it is in our time that this work is being done:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Quote If your defense if that calling upon the Name of Jehovah in a NT context is the same as the OT context then you are just simply agreeing with the Jews. So, you should no longer be called “Christ”ian but “Jehovah”ian or Jewish. JW's go around the gate of Christ. They climb through the back door.
Perhaps you should read it again. You know, someone can be a follower of Christ (Christian) and also follow his Father. If a Christian is a follower of Jesus and we are to imitate Jesus and Jesus listened closely to his father's voice, then are not we to do the same?Hi david,
You say
“(At Revelation 14:1-3 these “bought from the earth” to be rulers with the Lamb on heavenly Mount Zion are said to number 144,000.)”So looking at Rev 14
” 1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. “
So where does it say in this verse what you say, that these 144,000 are to be rulers??
Why do you assume this is the same group that is spoken of in Rev 5 as being from
“every tribe and people an tongue and nation”
when the 144,000 are specified as being from the tribes of Israel in Rev 7?” 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.”
Quote DannyHaszard http://www.dallasnews.com/forums….03c92de
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2
Location: usaJehovah's Witnesses beliefs and who are they?
The Watchtower is big money, being one of the top 40 New York City Corporations making nearly one billion dollars a year. That's just from one of their many corporations.
Hmmmmmmmmmm???
Hi david,
You say
“Perhaps you should read it again. You know, someone can be a follower of Christ (Christian) and also follow his Father. If a Christian is a follower of Jesus and we are to imitate Jesus and Jesus listened closely to his father's voice, then are not we to do the same? “Yes but what sort of follower?
“Imitating” Christ?
In which ways?
Into his death and resurrection? Yes.
He was born again of water and the Spirit.Many think they are following when they being religious, and they have not yet entered the kingdom in the way Jesus told us. They have not gone through the gate and received the blessing promised to all ages of the downpayment of the Spirit.
Acts 2
“37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. “
Hi Casey and t8:
Relative to questions about the name I use, it bears no special significance other than it is something that I use on some of my other accounts and so it is easy to remember. I guess when you see it, it means that I have posted something to this forum. I don't believe it should scare any sheep away. Jesus stated: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me”. (John 10:27)
I am writing this at home Casey and I have dial-up so I can't answer all of your questions at this time. but I will be talking to you soon. I don't want to tie up the phone.
David:
I will be talking to you also. I could't access this website at work for the last two days, and that is the reason for the delay in answering.
Quote
You SAID: “I don’t know if it is the majority”Ten witnesses come and visit me. Two of those witnesses claim to be the “anointed” in five weeks.
52wks in a year = an average of 100 witnesses a year and 20 elect.
20 elect at 1800 years (average) = 360,000Now this is just Dallas Texas I am speaking of. JW’s claim how many members “around the world” ? 6 million and 600,000!
There are maybe a few thousand here in Dallas alone. And yet, I have around 20 a year visit me???
[/QUOTE]
Quote Crazy. It's crazy because your math is all wrong. Where do you live anyway? In some dormitory filled with thousands of JW's? That's the only way what you said would make any sense. Well, you are obviously not reading what I wrote since I said where I lived…Dallas, TX. Yes, we have a lot of JW's here. How many are in Dallas? Who knows as of the year 2000 we had 1,188,580 people living here according to the latest census.
Let's try it again. You say there are 144,000 anointed. I have med at least ten over the years who have said they are apart of this small number. You need to realize that according to your hermeneutics, the 144,000 are from the early Apostles on down. So we have 2000 years there give or take.
If I have met ten we are now down to 143,990.
I had ten witnesses come to my house over five weeks. That is two a weekend. Of those ten I met two “anointed”.
Now, that part is true.
Let's average that out. 10 witnesses 5wks. 52 wks a year = 2witnesses a weekend… eight a month…100 a year.
2 anointed in five weeks. About 20 elect.
So, lil ‘ol me could meet 20 elect…myself alone.So, yes my calculation was a little off. Having admitted that maybe you will hear me out.
This is taken into account of 20 witnesses a year who claim to be the “anointed” just in my area alone. I am ONE person having met two anointed in 5 weeks.
I know of others who have met some of these “anointed”. Well with a average of 20 per every 10 people I know then our numbers are slim. That would be 200 elect.
If they have met some then let's take into consideration we are still just talking about Dallas…not Texas…DALLAS.
There are 6,600,000 people as of this moment on 10/12/2006 who claim to be JW's. How many of those are claimed anointed? We have 152 Kingdom Halls in the metropolitan area and we have a huge amount of suburbs (top ten larges cities in America).
David, considering I am just going on an average here it is impossible to get exact numbers. What I do know is I met 2 witnesses who claimed elect status in five weeks of talking alone. Those numbers are staggering considering the population I mentioned and I am a mere ONE man amongst MANY men in this city alone with God only knows how many witnesses.
2 out of 10 is mind boggling to me.
Just how do this witnesses KNOW they are indeed of this small number of chosen – 144,000?
And on that note what Scriptural jump rope is being done to say that the Eucharist or Lord’s Supper is only done once a year?
And on that note what other hoola hoop is being twirled so that on this ONE day a year only the anointed are able to partake of it?
And to reiterate Nick’s point, how in the world is the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation connected to the ONLY leaders and kings/priests in eternity?
REVELATION textual variant study – Wilber N. Pickering ThM PhD
“And to the messenger of the church in Smyrna write: These things says the First and the Last,36 who became dead and came to life
36Here, and in 1:17 and 22:13, the glorified Christ calls Himself “the First and the Last”—comparing with Isa. 44:6 we have one of several demonstrations that Jesus Christ is Jehovah [Mormons and JWs deny that He is Jehovah].
“And to the messenger of the church in Thyatira write: These things says the Son of God,46
46If anyone was still in doubt as to the identity of the One who is dictating these letters, the doubt stops here.
And they take no rest, day or night, saying: “Holy, holy, holy; Holy, holy, holy; Holy, holy, holy;81 The Lord God Almighty; He who was and who is and who is coming.”
81Three ‘holies’ for each member of the Trinity.
from the tribe of Joseph107
107“Joseph” stands for Ephraim. Since Levi is counted here (usually he isn’t) and Joseph has two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim, someone has to be dropped—Dan. From both Jacob (Gen. 49:16-17) and Moses (Deut. 33:22) he got the least impressive ‘blessing’.
even where their141 Lord was crucified.142
141Over 99% of the Greek manuscripts have “their” Lord, not “our” as in KJV and NKJV. If these two “olive trees” are the ones in Zech. 4:3 and 14, then the “LORD of the whole earth” there is Jehovah the Son.
21:5 Then He who sat on the throne224
224Since the last throne mentioned is the Great White Throne, and since all judgment has been committed to the Son (Jn. 5:22), I conclude that the speaker is Jehovah the Son.
6 Then He said to me, “I have become the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.226
226“I have become”—this seems awkward, so a small minority of the Greek manuscripts changed it to the familiar “It is done”. But in order to be the Boss at both the beginning and the end, you have to be the greatest, and survive all challenges. All human history has been involved in Satan’s challenge of that supremacy. Because of that challenge, and because only at this point has that challenge been definitively put down, Jehovah the Son says, “I have become”.
254“The Lord Jesus Christ” is now the full name or title of Jehovah the Son.
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