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To all,
In this thread please just post the scriptural reasons why the Jehovah or YHVH in the OT seems to be someone other than the Father and more likely, Jehovah as the Son.This is not to be a debate but a database as a reference. There will be another thread to discuss the matter.
Found here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y300930Thanks!
There are those who assume that God the Father was the one who interacted with ancient Israel personally, appearing and speaking to Moses and the patriarchs. However, the Bible contradicts this belief:
JOHN 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJV)
JOHN 5:37 “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.” (NKJV)
JOHN 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father.” (RWB)
I TIMOTHY 6:14 . . . Our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 who at the due time will be revealed by God, the blessed and only Ruler of all, the King of kings and the Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal, whose home is in inaccessible light, whom no man has seen and no man is able to see: to him be honor and everlasting power. Amen. (Jerusalem Bible)
I JOHN 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. (NKJV)
From these New Testament scriptures we can see that the Father has not been seen by mankind. So who was the one called “God” (Heb. 'elohim) or “the LORD” (Heb. YHVH) who appeared and spoke to Noah, Abraham, Moses and others in the OT?
Please list the passages where God or the LORD is appearing and speaking to someone in the OT. You may list your reasons why you think that the one appearing or speaking is Jehovah, the Son.
For starters…
Genesis 181Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4“Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” 6So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.
9Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ 14“Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.”
16Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19“For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20And the LORD said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21“I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD. 23Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24“Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25“Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28“Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
As you can see, this passage is full of the LORD (Jehovah-YHVH) appearing and speaking with Abraham. This couldn't be the Father who no man has seen or heard. Many believe that the LORD here is the Son who is the judge of all the whole earth.
Heb 1:8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”Compare to this:
Psalms 102
19For He looked down from His holy height;
From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth,20To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To set free those who were doomed to death,21That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion
And His praise in Jerusalem,22When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.23He has weakened my strength in the way;
He has shortened my days.24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.25“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.27“But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.28“The children of Your servants will continue,
And their descendants will be established before You.”all
Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.it is Christ that made God his father known to us as a father.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2011,22:39) Heb 1:8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”Compare to this:
Psalms 102
19For He looked down from His holy height;
From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth,20To hear the groaning of the prisoner,
To set free those who were doomed to death,21That men may tell of the name of the LORD in Zion
And His praise in Jerusalem,22When the peoples are gathered together,
And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.23He has weakened my strength in the way;
He has shortened my days.24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
Your years are throughout all generations.25“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.27“But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.28“The children of Your servants will continue,
And their descendants will be established before You.”
This passage goes well with the passages in the quote box:Isaiah 48
12“Listen to me, O Jacob,Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
13My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.
We see in the NT that Jesus was given the credit in Heb 1 of laying out the foundations by the work of His hands and that the heavens are also the works of His hands.
In Rev 1, Jesus refers to Himself as the 'First and the Last.'
Rev 1:17c-18b
…I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!
How about Jeremiah 1. Please notice that the Word of the LORD came and was referred to as YHWH:
1The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests who were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin, 2to whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign. 3It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the exile of Jerusalem in the fifth month.
4Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”6Then I said, “Alas, Lord GOD!
Behold, I do not know how to speak,
Because I am a youth.”7But the LORD said to me,
“Do not say, ‘I am a youth,’
Because everywhere I send you, you shall go,
And all that I command you, you shall speak.8“Do not be afraid of them,
For I am with you to deliver you,” declares the LORD.9Then the LORD stretched out His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me,
“Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.10“See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms,
To pluck up and to break down,
To destroy and to overthrow,
To build and to plant.”The Almond Rod and Boiling Pot
11The word of the LORD came to me saying, “What do you see, Jeremiah?” And I said, “I see a rod of an almond tree.” 12Then the LORD said to me, “You have seen well, for I am watching over My word to perform it.”
13The word of the LORD came to me a second time saying, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see a boiling pot, facing away from the north.” 14Then the LORD said to me, “Out of the north the evil will break forth on all the inhabitants of the land. 15“For, behold, I am calling all the families of the kingdoms of the north,” declares the LORD; “and they will come and they will set each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all its walls round about and against all the cities of Judah. 16“I will pronounce My judgments on them concerning all their wickedness, whereby they have forsaken Me and have offered sacrifices to other gods, and worshiped the works of their own hands. 17“Now, gird up your loins and arise, and speak to them all which I command you. Do not be dismayed before them, or I will dismay you before them. 18“Now behold, I have made you today as a fortified city and as a pillar of iron and as walls of bronze against the whole land, to the kings of Judah, to its princes, to its priests and to the people of the land. 19“They will fight against you, but they will not overcome you, for I am with you to deliver you,” declares the LORD.
Jesus is called the Word of God in the NT?
Rev 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
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