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Genesis 32:22-32
That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”
Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon.Does this imply myth, allegory or literal truth?
If myth or allegory then one must look for same throughout scripture.
If truth, then it implies that the unmanifest Creator of the universe incarnated in some limited form (which seems paradoxical) and behaved in a most human fashion like an avatar or demigod of other belief systems.Your thoughts?
Greetings Cato….Melchezadik had neither beginning nor end…Abraham gave this high priest of Salem his share of the spoils of war. Was Melchezadik a manefestation of God or was he an angel….
Hi cato,
until we can wrap our minds around what the true meaning of the word elohiym was
in the minds of the Hebrews, it is difficult to know exactly who or what Jacob fought with.
The Hebrews saw elohiym as plural, multiple powers, not specifically God.
Jacob could have fought with a godlike being with much power, but our translators have
chosen to lead us to believe that Jacob fought with God. In spite of the fact that no one was
supposed to have seen God face to face and lived.Tim
Quote (Colter @ April 29 2008,08:57) He dressed much as did the Canaanite priests except that on his breast he wore an emblem of three concentric circles, the Satania symbol of the Paradise Trinity. In the course of his ministry this insignia of three concentric circles became regarded as so sacred by his followers that they never dared to use it, and it was soon forgotten with the passing of a few generations. 
Colter
I bet they were afraid to use it because it looked too much like a target for the enemy archers to aim at.Tim
Gen 14:18-20
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
NIVThis says that he was priest of God Most High. This means that he cannot be God Most High. He is a “type” [a real, historical person, place or thing that goes before and illustrates a greater truth. This is a literary term, I believe.] of Messiah who would come after him and hold the position of King and Priest. [The Aaronic priesthood could not do this.]
Therefore, Melchizedek could not be a theophany or Jesus in the form of another humanMel was a real live person, because Jesus' priesthood was in his order, not the order of himself.
Heb 5:8-10
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek .
NIVHe was a son, he learned obedience (this could not be said if he was God), and he became a high priest in Melchizedek's order after he was perfected. This is evidence that he was not Melchizedek/ Melchizedek was not him.
Heb 7:1-3
7:1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
NIVWithout father or mother, without geneology. This just means that his geneology is not recorded. Understand that the Jews did not speak like us. They are and were of a different culture. They called Abraham their father. The Levites called Aaron their father. Jesus was called the son of David. If you have no recorded geneology, you have no one to claim as “father”- one who has gone before you, on whose basis you are doing what you are doing. This was highly important to the Aaronic priesthood:
Heb 7:15-17
15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.
NIVThe high priest had to be appointed from the Most High Elohim [God]. Not everyone could do it. The geneologies were so important to the Levites because it was through those geneoligies that they knew they were appointed. Not much is said about Mel, but we know that his geneology was not recorded, so he was not relying on geneology to know that he was appointed. My thought is that he actually had a relationship with God and was called by Him, personally. (however this is not recorded)
Mel was a real guy- flesh and blood
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 30 2008,00:11) Hi cato,
until we can wrap our minds around what the true meaning of the word elohiym was
in the minds of the Hebrews, it is difficult to know exactly who or what Jacob fought with.
The Hebrews saw elohiym as plural, multiple powers, not specifically God.
Jacob could have fought with a godlike being with much power, but our translators have
chosen to lead us to believe that Jacob fought with God. In spite of the fact that no one was
supposed to have seen God face to face and lived.Tim
I read the passage over again and I think I agree with Tim. Scripture does not specifically say that Jacob fought with YHWH. Elohim literally means “mighty one.” When applied to the Father, it takes a plural of majesty, “mightiest of mighty ones.” We do not really know that it was the Father that he wrestled with.
This passage gives insight to the heart of Jacob. When something was valuable to him, [ie: Rachel, ect..], he fought for it and would not give up. That is the kind of heart that our Father looks for. One that will endure to the end, despite whatever temperol suffering. [That is why Esau despising his birthright was so great a sin]Quote (Cato @ April 29 2008,06:32) Genesis 32:22-32
That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”
Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon.Does this imply myth, allegory or literal truth?
If myth or allegory then one must look for same throughout scripture.
If truth, then it implies that the unmanifest Creator of the universe incarnated in some limited form (which seems paradoxical) and behaved in a most human fashion like an avatar or demigod of other belief systems.Your thoughts?
Hi,
Did the being identify himself as God?
Or did Jacob assume as much?Hi Nick,
I think a lot of people assumed because the man said “you have struggled with God and have overcome”
That Jacob had wrestled with God.
I have heard preachers say that Jacob wrestled with God.
But the man never said that he was God, only that Jacob had struggled with God. Could have been at any time before.Tim
Hi colter,
If these are just twisted myths why did Jesus not set the record straight?
He seemed to rather show a deep respect for what is writtenHi colter,
If God does not change and the word is true why would religion need to evolve?
Man's foolish religion does but not true religion.Hi colter,
So God wants men to divide into small groups and develop their own ideas of how to understand and relate to Him?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2008,07:26) Hi colter,
So God wants men to divide into small groups and develop their own ideas of how to understand and relate to Him?
Can we really know what God wants when His instruction book was so confusing that men did exactly what you said.
Divided into small groups and developed their own ideas.
They are called denominations.Tim
Hi colter,
Do you find the Urantia book written in 1957 to be greater than the scriptural revelation of God?Hi Tim4,
Do you find the bible confusing?
The source of those writings, the Spirit of God, is still available.Hi colter,
The body of Christ is not the whore you describe.
The body is united in the Spirit of God
fueled and fed by the Word.2 Cor 11:2-3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJVThe word of truth gets complicated for many reasons, but it was not intended to be complicated. The good news is simple.
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