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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:07) Ed, (1)was Job LITERALLY a father to these poor people he mentioned? YES or NO? (2)Was he saying he was the Father God? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,1) What people?
2) Was “Job” saying he was the Father God? …nowhere that I'm aware of.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,15:07) Job 29:16 King James Version
I was a father to the poor………….Gene, was Job LITERALLY a father to these poor people he mentioned? YES or NO?
Was he saying he was the Father God? YES or NO?
Ed, was Job LITERALLY a father to these poor people he mentioned? YES or NO?
Was he saying he was the Father God? YES or NO?
Mike…….I understand that is Metaphorically speaking about Job being the Father of the Poor, I have no problem with that, No he was not the literal Father of the Poor but was acting like a Father to them.I know no where where Job ever said he was the Father of God, How does that dumb question fit into what you are trying to say Mike. What you Point Man?
peace and lvoe to you and yours………………………………gene
Gene,
Thank you for answering my questions directly and honestly – like a man. Perhaps Ed will learn from your example, and actually answer the questions instead of playing games.
As for your points: I understand that is Metaphorically speaking about Job being the Father of the Poor…….. No he was not the literal Father of the Poor but was acting like a Father to them.
Bravo! Spot on! Job was not saying he was a LITERAL father to these poor people in his town, or where ever, right? He was saying that he had been like a “protector” of them, or “someone who looks out for them and helps them”, right?
Nor was Job claiming to be “THE Father God in Heaven” with that statement, right?
So what we can learn from this scripture (and about five other Hebrew scriptures) is that the word “father” was used metaphorically in Hebrew culture, to identify a person who was looking out for, and helping, others.
Almost like a hen who takes her chicks under her wing to protect them, right?
(Matthew 23:37)So here is the simple question:
Does Jesus look out for us and help to protect us? And will he do that FOREVER?
The honest answer to both of those questions is “YES”. And in that metaphorical sense, Jesus can easily be called “everlasting father”.
Just like with Job, it doesn't mean Jesus is LITERALLY our father. And just like with Job, it doesn't mean Jesus is “THE Father God in Heaven”. It just means he will be our everlasting benefactor – which he definitely is.
Mike………So what's your point?
We all know there are things that we must take literally or metaphorically written in scriptures so what are you driving at here. remember we , me and Edj were the ones saying Jesus was and is “NOT” the true Father or a mighty God either. Those statement are metaphorically written, we have no problem with that as far as I know anyway.
Peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Okay Gene.
So if we all agree that Jesus can be called “everlasting father” (WITHOUT meaning his is THE Father God in heaven), and he can be called “mighty god” (WITHOUT meaning he is the ALMIGHTY God in heaven) – then we should have no problem agreeing that Isaiah 9:6 IS an accurate prophecy about Jesus, right?
Mike……You've missed the point completely, Jesus himself is none of those things now or ever will be. Just like a ship being ” called ” a she never makes that ship a real she “ever” calling someone or something something may not have anything to do with that persons true identity , but only shows an attribute that can relate to it, Is a Ford “falcon” a real “Falcon” ? Is it even close to a Real FALCON ?, Mike just like saying Jesus is a ” little” god, never makes him a big God or a little god either . Jesus has NO divinity himself in any form he is a pure human being both when he was on this earth as a born Son of Man and even NOW is still a Son of MAN.
You are trying to use what you are saying to force John 1.1 to mean Jesus was the Word of GOD and thereby force a preexistence Jesus, when in fact not one true scholar ever uses that text to prove Jesus was a god of any kind or he preexisted either. Many scholars have admitted they can not use that text to prove Jesus ever existed .
I ask you for ONE scripture that says these “exact” words, Jesus Preexisted his berth on this earth as a living being , you said you produced many I think 50 as I recall , but I have seen not even one scripture that “EXACTLY” says that. Trying to force text to say what can be taken many was is poor scholarship Mike.
Have you read Paul W. Newman's writings on the CHRISTOLOGY of Jesus yet ? Please read it .
Peace and love to you and yours ………………………. gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 16 2013,09:48) Mike just like saying Jesus is a ” little” god, never makes him a big God or a little god either .
So you're saying that even though SCRIPTURE calls Jesus a god, he's not? Hmmmm………….. Well, if you are okay arguing with the scriptures, there is nothing more I can do for you.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 16 2013,09:48) Jesus has NO divinity himself in any form…….
Gene, if even WE can partake in divine nature, why do you suppose our Lord, who sits at God's right hand, cannot?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 16 2013,09:48) he is a pure human being both when he was on this earth as a born Son of Man and even NOW is still a Son of MAN.
Jesus became a life-giving spirit, Gene. Sons of men consist of flesh – something that cannot exist in heaven. I can't even imagine how some people think Jesus is the only human being in heaven – ruling over all the spirits. The whole thought of a human being existing in a spirit realm baffles me. But like I mentioned, I don't have to think about it, because there are scriptures that clearly prohibit Jesus from still being a human being.Mike……..So when Jesus said when the son of Man returns will he find faith on the earth. is in error or when he said “when the son of man comes he will separate the nations as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats” is also not still describing him as a son of man right?
Mike partaking of the Devine nature in no way makes you yourself a Devine person , no one is Devine but a deity and the only true deity is God the Father. Jesus is not a deity no matter how hard you try to make him be, nor is he a god of any kind . He is purely a human being now and always was and always will be also. He came from human stock even if
God arranged some of his DNA.You say scripture call Jesus a God, post the scripture please or Just, One scripture where Jesus ever said he himself was a little god or any kind of God for that matter.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 17 2013,01:52) when he said “when the son of man comes he will separate the nations as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats” is also not still describing him as a son of man right?
Yes Gene, Jesus is known to us as “The Son of Man”. He did not remain a human being, but referred to himself as the Son of Man – even when speaking about future things – because that's how they knew him at the time he said the things.Scripture clearly says that Jesus became a life-giving spirit, Gene. Scripture clearly says that flesh cannot enter heaven. If you want to believe that Jesus is the ONLY human being floating around in heaven, ruling over much more powerful spirit beings, then I can't stop you. But to me, that thought is just silly. Jesus and Paul say that in the resurrection, even WE will be like angels, with new, spiritual bodies. So why does ONLY Jesus, our Lord, remain a human being, Gene?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 17 2013,01:52) Mike partaking of the Devine nature in no way makes you yourself a Devine person , no one is Devine but a deity and the only true deity is God the Father
Since scripture disagrees with you, so must I.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 17 2013,01:52) You say scripture call Jesus a God, post the scripture please or Just, One scripture where Jesus ever said he himself was a little god or any kind of God for that matter.
Why must the words be said BY JESUS? I give you Isaiah 9:6, for starters. That should be enough.But what do you think Jesus was really saying in the following passage?
John 10
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’?35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
Do you see that? Jesus was saying, If he called THEM gods, then why not me? I'm greater than they were!
But any way, you asked for “one little scripture”, and I gave you Is 9:6. That SHOULD BE the end of the story, right?
Mike………You have not given me ONE SCRIPTURE, that SAYS, Jesus preexisted his berth on this earth You do to scriptures exactly what you accuse me and others doing, you make some thing Literial when they are not to be taken literial and where they are you say they are not to be taken literial. Jesus clearly said the Father was “IN” Him you say he was not literially in him, Scripture Say Jesus was the ANOINTED (Messiah) You deny that by sayy GOd the Father was not Literially IN Jesus doing the Works.
Jesus said when the “SON of MAN” comes You say he only said that for there sake, Scripture say The word was God you say the word was “ALittle” God trying desperately to create another God. You say Jesus was changed to a Sprit , But Jesus said he was not a Spirit after his resurection.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 19 2013,07:50) Mike………You have not given me ONE SCRIPTURE, that SAYS, Jesus preexisted his berth on this earth……….
Slow down Gene. You asked for a scripture that says Jesus is a god. I gave you one in my last post, right?I need you to either acknowledge or refute that scripture before I go down this other road with you AGAIN.
I will give him one Mike. And now he can focus on answering you.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 20 2013,03:50) Mike………You have not given me ONE SCRIPTURE, that SAYS, Jesus preexisted his berth on this earth
Jesus said, “Before Abraham, I am”. And the Jews understood his words by replying something like, “are you older than Abraham”.Of course there are many other scriptures this is not an isolated one, but we know that you have filtered the truth out of them.
Your quote is really saying, “Mike………You have not given me ONE SCRIPTURE, (that I haven't twisted to make it say something else) that SAYS, Jesus preexisted his berth on this earth” (after I twist the simple and clear meaning).
T8……..Again another false accusation of me, you preexistences seem to be good at that. Now where in your statement or supossed scripture that “says” Jesus Preexisted his berth do you see the words I or he was a ALIVE “Being” before Abraham as you falsely Assume it is saying . Forcing a text to say what you want it to say is hardly true Scholarship T8 ,
What is I ask you both is clear a “yes “or “no” answer is required. Is there one scripture that says “this” T8 and Mike , not a scripture you can make appear that way. Is there a Single scripture that says Jesus Christ “Preexisted” as a Live Being before his berth on this earth.
Why would you not think something that important would not have been clearly written of or explained clearly by the apostles and even Jesus himself that would leave no doubt to anyone. Jesus never said in one place about any past existence activite nor has any Prophet or apostles even so much as sujessted it either.
Face it T8 and Mike you both have bought into one of the biggest Lies ever told christianity by the Gnostic's and Trinitarians who are Preexistences aslo Just like you people are , So what if they say Jesus was a Big God and you say He was a Little God, Makes no difference 90% of what they say you also say concerning Jesus' Preexistence. As i have said before you both are in the same boat heading for a Shipwreak at the return of Jesus when he will abolish all the LIES about HIm told by false “religions” .
In that Day your Works of “separting Jesus from our “EXACT” Idenity with him will be over. And all of Jesus' “brothers and sisters” wil be glorified together with him. You work of moving Jesus' idenity away from us, will turn on you yourselves and you may find yourselves seperated from Him Just as you preach him as different from us , so shall it be to you, unless you repent. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………..gene
Gene, when Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am” he was saying he existed before Abraham. “I am” means I exist. “I think therefore I am”. When God said “I am that I am”, what did he mean? So when Jesus says, “I am”, he was implying not that he was God, but that he existed just as God exists.
Let the Bible interpret itself, and throw away your own understanding.
Even the Jews said, “are you older than Abraham”. So it seems clear what the meaning is. But like anything, you can change the meaning by putting your own spin on it. But if you leave it alone, then it is clear.
Crucify yourself Gene and let the truth live in you. If you fill yourself up with your own understanding, then there is no room for truth.
T8…….I simply ask you for a scripture that says this, Jesus ” preexisted” his berth on this earth , if there is none then simply be honest enough to admit it. As far as your reference to the “I am” thing as you proof text, and implying it could mean nothing else , you are completely wrong, it could mean Jesus was mentioned in scripture before Abraham was or he is of Greater importance as in position. If Jesus was meaning he existed as a being before Abraham then why did he not defend that position? And why would Jesus have said that Abraham looked foreword to his Day , if Jesus was all ready in existence at that time.
T8……….Your whole house of cards are supported by you belief of a preexistent Jesus, so what will you do when you find out he did not exist before his berth on this earth, but was simply prophesied to come into existence at the proper time . Will the whole house of card you have built come crashing down on you ?
T8 we non Trinitarians and non Preexistences , know where we stand and don't need to force any text to say what in fact it is not saying, Jesus is a 100% pure human being both when he was bought into existence here, and now, and well be when he returns again.
Your religion of separating Jesus from his human roots is a false teaching , rather you believe it or not brother.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 19 2013,07:50) Mike………You have not given me ONE SCRIPTURE, that SAYS, Jesus preexisted his berth on this earth……….
Slow down Gene. You asked for a scripture that says Jesus is a god. I gave you one in my last post, right?I need you to either acknowledge or refute that scripture before I go down this other road with you AGAIN.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 21 2013,15:37) T8…….I simply ask you for a scripture that says this, Jesus ” preexisted” his berth on this earth ,
Oh sorry. Here we are.John 8:58-59
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.So Jesus said, BEFORE Abraham, I AM. Are you going to throw a stone at me too?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 21 2013,15:37) Your religion of separating Jesus from his human roots is a false teaching
Although he existed in the FORM of God, he emptied himself, and came in the flesh. He died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right-hand of God in the glory that he had with him before the world began.It is written and I believe it.
Cannot be any simpler than that. There must be something blocking you from seeing it. Pray that whatever is blocking these scriptural truths is moved out of the way.
T8 and Mike…………….Just as i thought you simply ignore My post and refuse to be honest and answer the questions i ask in that post. You simply add words and thought to force the text to say what you decide they mean. Show any activity of Jesus before his Berth on this earth, I realize you uses the “Let us” thing as another of you so called Proof Text but just like Making Jesus the Word Mentioned by John and the “before Abraham I am” thing to mean he “PREEXISTED” before Abraham even though Scripture says Abraham looked “FORWARD” to the Day of Jesus, obviously means He was not in existence at the time of Abraham.
Not to mention the many scriptures that tell us He would come through the Roots of Jesse and from His brethren the Israelites and Jesus' own mouth where he said he was the root and offspring of King David. While you deny that and say he was from God as a Preexisting GOD of some Kind.
So who does that work on the one hand, we have you saying Jesus was a God, and of the God Class, and on the other we have Scriptures where it say he was from the roots of Jesse and was a PURE HUMAN Being and even Jesus said over and over He was a SON OF MAN. All these you guys neglect and treat as if they simply do not exist in you scriptures.
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 22 2013,08:39) T8 and Mike…………….Just as i thought you simply ignore My post and refuse to be honest and answer the questions i ask in that post.
t8 answered you honestly, Gene. I haven't yet answered that new set of questions because I am still waiting for your acknowledgment of the last one.So please address my last post to you. (I've already posted it twice. How many times will I have to re-post it before you address it?)
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