ISM Scale

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,23:21)

Quote (abe @ April 19 2013,21:09)

ho theos= the God. not O God.

Sorry, don't see the Son being called god.

To the Son He says, O God, your throne is forever…………...

Now what part of that don't you understand, Abe?

Who do you think is being addressed in that quote? (It SHOULD BE obvious, since the sentence starts with “TO THE SON”, right?

I'm not seeing the dilemma here.

Hi Mike,

I believe its talking about the throne.

However unto the son the throne of you the God into the age of the age.

The Son is getting the Throne of God.

Get the interlinear out for Is.9:6. That verse is very confusing?

Peace.

April 20, 2013 at 7:35 am#342378

mikeboll64

Blocked

So it's saying the throne of God is a god? I don't get it, Abe.

Write it out the way YOU think it should go in proper English, okay?

April 20, 2013 at 1:52 pm#342384

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,08:21)

Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2013,23:09)

Mike,

Your question shows a lack of knowledge.

Kerwin,

What separates the being of “God” from those things He created? If the things God created are not God Himself, then something must separate them from the God who created them. What is that something?

Mike,

Separation infers God has substance and God created all substance so he has none being as he existed before substance came to be. Both the earth and the heavens have substance as God created them.

How is substance separated from non-substance?

April 20, 2013 at 3:04 pm#342388

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (abe @ April 20 2013,14:09)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2013,17:17)

Quote (abe @ April 18 2013,00:28)

However unto the son the throne of you the God into the age of the age.

Looks to me; Unto the Son the Throne of God into the age

You don't think this verse is calling the Son, God?

That sounds about right, Abe. But now let's separate the “Unto the Son” from the rest, based on the context. We must incorporate the beginning words of verse 7 into our understanding.

In verse 7, Paul says, “In speaking of the angels he says…………..”

This line contrasts with the first words of verse 8. Get it?

Here is how it lays out: To the angels, He says “X”. However, unto the Son, [He says] “The throne of you, ho theos, is to the age of the age.”

And remember that verse 9 (which is part of the same scripture Paul was quoting) ends by speaking about the God OF this first god mentioned.

The passage speaks about a certain god, and the God who set this first god above his companions by anointing him with the oil of gladness.

So yes, I'm fairly certain this passage refers to Jesus as a god, and then tells how the God OF Jesus anointed him and set him above his companions.

(I would like to hear either your acceptance of what I've posted here – or your rebuttal. I would also like to hear your interpretation of Is 9:6 – and why you think that verse isn't calling Jesus a god.)

Hi Mike,

Looks to me; Unto the Son the Throne of God into the age of the age.

Ps.45:6 Your throne, God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

“The throne of you, ho theos, is to the age of the age.

ho theos= the God. not O God.

Sorry, don't see the Son being called god.

Peace brother.

Abe………. Thanks, Very true and accurate rendition of that scripture brother. I see it more clearly now and agree with how you have presented it, I never noticed the word “ho” or “the” proceeding the word God there before. Jesus is definitely not a God being mentioned there. Mike , T8, and Pierre try every way they can to desperately make Jesus a God of some kind, or their whole house of cards comes crashing down around them. So I doubt they will ever admit you are right brother.

Good post brother.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

April 20, 2013 at 3:19 pm#342390

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,12:43)

I addressed it, Abe. Now I'm waiting for YOUR response to MY rebuttal.

Mike where and when have you addressed this? , I would like to read it.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

April 20, 2013 at 6:35 pm#342394

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,23:33)

Quote (abe @ April 20 2013,00:50)

Is.9:6 You should really have a hard look at this verse mighty God is not there.

Okay, I'll bite. What do YOU think 9:6 says?

Hi Mike,

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Much controversy has arisen in relation to this expression; and attempts have been made to show that the word translated “God,” אל 'ĕl, may refer to a hero, a king, a conqueror. Thus Gesenius renders, it 'Mighty hero;' and supposes that the name 'God' is used here in accordance with the custom of the Orientals, who ascribe divine attributes to kings. In like manner Pluschke (see Hengstenberg) says, 'In my opinion this name is altogether symbolical. The Messiah shall be called strength of God, or strong God, divine hero, in order by this name to remind the people of the strength of God.' But after all such controversy, it still remains certain that the natural and obvious meaning of the expression is to denote a divine nature.

I dont know what it actually says.

Peace.

April 20, 2013 at 10:08 pm#342400

Participant

To all,

Certain Jews believe Trinitarians translation of Isaiah 9:6-7 are of poor quality.

Quote

…and his name will be called, 'A wonderful counselor is the mighty Gd, an everlasting father is the ruler of peace.'

Here is my source. Its bias is that Jesus is not the Messiah.

April 21, 2013 at 2:05 am#342426

942767

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 21 2013,09:08)

To all,

Certain Jews believe Trinitarians translation of Isaiah 9:6-7 are of poor quality.

Quote

…and his name will be called, 'A wonderful counselor is the mighty Gd, an everlasting father is the ruler of peace.'

Here is my source. Its bias is that Jesus is not the Messiah.

Hi Kerwin:

Of course, we know that his name is Jesus, and not “wonderful counselor, etc., but “name” here denotes his reputation because of his life of obedience to God.

Quote

and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Thus we have him stating in John 14:

Quote

Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 21, 2013 at 2:35 am#342429

Ed J

Participant

Hi Marty,

Why do you put bible verses in a quote box? …it makes it harder to follow your posts.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

April 21, 2013 at 4:12 am#342445

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2013,19:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,08:21)

Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2013,23:09)

Mike,

Your question shows a lack of knowledge.

Kerwin,

Mike,

Separation infers God has substance and God created all substance so he has none being as he existed before substance came to be. Both the earth and the heavens have substance as God created them.

How is substance separated from non-substance?

could you explain what substance it is '' GOD HIS SPIRIT “

SO SPIRIT = ? WHAT SUBSTANCE ???/

April 21, 2013 at 4:17 am#342446

Participant

Quote (abe @ April 20 2013,13:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,23:21)

Quote (abe @ April 19 2013,21:09)

ho theos= the God. not O God.

Sorry, don't see the Son being called god.

To the Son He says, O God, your throne is forever…………...

Now what part of that don't you understand, Abe?

Who do you think is being addressed in that quote? (It SHOULD BE obvious, since the sentence starts with “TO THE SON”, right?

I'm not seeing the dilemma here.

Hi Mike,

I believe its talking about the throne.

However unto the son the throne of you the God into the age of the age.

The Son is getting the Throne of God.

Get the interlinear out for Is.9:6. That verse is very confusing?

Peace.

abe

Quote

Get the interlinear out for Is.9:6. That verse is very confusing?

what is it that you find so confusing in that verse

April 21, 2013 at 4:23 am#342451

Participant

abe

you still have not respond to my question 5 or 6 pages back ,why

April 21, 2013 at 6:08 am#342482

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 20 2013,20:23)

abe

you still have not respond to my question 5 or 6 pages back ,why

Hi T,

Sorry, I missed it? Point me to it.

Peace brother.

April 21, 2013 at 6:12 am#342483

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 18 2013,09:46)

Quote (abe @ April 18 2013,09:12)

Quote (terraricca @ April 17 2013,17:17)

Quote (abe @ April 17 2013,08:56)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 16 2013,06:40)

I will begin to go through them one at a time if you want me to. But only after you acknowledge for me that Jesus IS called a god in certain scriptures.

You have “kind of” acknowledged it already, but I want a definitive acknowledgement – one that I can quote for you the next time you forget that Jesus is a “small god” according to scripture.

MIke…….. Listen clearly “OK”, JESUS HIMSELF IS NOT CALLED GOD , BIG OR LITTLE IN ANY SCRIPTURE. I have “NEVER” Acknowledge Jesus as a GOD, big or “little” god , NEVER. You have completely misunderstaood what i have said if you found something in what i said, that may have seem that way.

I do recall saying GOD “PRESENCE” was THERE WITH THE “MAN” JESUS and the BIG GOD was “IN” HIM, and Where Thomas said “MY Lord, “AND” MY GOD> When he came to REALIZE GOD the FATHER, WAS TRULY THERE “IN” JESUS HIS Lord. Both His GOD and HIS Lord were there, and that was Not a “little” god present But the BIG GOD and “ONLY” GOD, that was Preasent there.

Mike , I explained to you how the Term God is used and it is never a “little or big God”. it is alway used with the Idea of “YOUR TRUSTED GOD” It is alway PERSONALLY USED in context like, the God of this or that or them or your God , My GOd, Our GOD, Their GOD, it has ONLY ONE MEANING HERE it IS in its simplest terms, “THE POWER YOU TRUST IN”. Now to you Jesus and satan and all the millions of God's people trust in are real Gods, to me they are “FALSE GOD” because i Have ONLY ONE GOD and I acknowledge NO OTHER GOD of any KIND. And that include your so-called god ha-satan also.

Now is that clear enough MIke that is the exact way i see it, you and anyone else can see it anyway you like . Jesus is Not MY GOD , He is My Brother in the Family of GOD, the firstborn in that Family, But non of that makes Him or any other member of that family, a God of any Kind, but members one of another in the family of God.

Now I hope that answered you question as to how i stand concerning the word GOD.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

Hi Gene,

Good Post.

Ex.23:13 “Pay attention to do everything I have told you, and do not even mention the names of other gods – do not let them be heard on your lips.

Peace brother…

ABE

are you a Hebrew or Jewish for quoting EX 23;13

Hi T,

I am a Christian. What religion do you profess?

Ex.23:13 “Pay attention to do everything I have told you, and do not even mention the names of other gods – do not let them be heard on your lips.

Peace brother.[/quote]
I am a Christian to the very core of my soul and heart

So why did you not quoted Ex;23;10-13 this was ordinance to the sons of Jacob (Israel)

How could this be applied to the Gentiles And sins Christ .???

We all should understand that the power of words are given by those who speak them,via there own spirit, so if I talk about Satan the God of this world ,would this mean ,that I worship him by saying his name,???
So I also could not attend classes of ancient history and cultures, we're they talk about ,nations believes and their gods,right

Think, if you really do not believe in those gods then they do not receive power from you,right ???no sin is committed .

Abe

This one

April 21, 2013 at 6:22 am#342485

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 20 2013,07:04)

Quote (abe @ April 20 2013,14:09)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2013,17:17)

Quote (abe @ April 18 2013,00:28)

However unto the son the throne of you the God into the age of the age.

Looks to me; Unto the Son the Throne of God into the age

You don't think this verse is calling the Son, God?

That sounds about right, Abe. But now let's separate the “Unto the Son” from the rest, based on the context. We must incorporate the beginning words of verse 7 into our understanding.

In verse 7, Paul says, “In speaking of the angels he says…………..”

This line contrasts with the first words of verse 8. Get it?

Here is how it lays out: To the angels, He says “X”. However, unto the Son, [He says] “The throne of you, ho theos, is to the age of the age.”

And remember that verse 9 (which is part of the same scripture Paul was quoting) ends by speaking about the God OF this first god mentioned.

The passage speaks about a certain god, and the God who set this first god above his companions by anointing him with the oil of gladness.

So yes, I'm fairly certain this passage refers to Jesus as a god, and then tells how the God OF Jesus anointed him and set him above his companions.

Hi Mike,

Looks to me; Unto the Son the Throne of God into the age of the age.

Ps.45:6 Your throne, God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.

“The throne of you, ho theos, is to the age of the age.

ho theos= the God. not O God.

Sorry, don't see the Son being called god.

Peace brother.

Good post brother.

Peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

Hi Gene,

Thank you, I don't understand Mike, he understands Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. BUT now he is trying to make him GOD? I don't believe everything You say, but You have GREAT faith in it. Thank you for being YOU.

Peace brother…

April 21, 2013 at 1:30 pm#342498

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ April 21 2013,10:12)

Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2013,19:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,08:21)

Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2013,23:09)

Mike,

Your question shows a lack of knowledge.

Kerwin,

Mike,

Separation infers God has substance and God created all substance so he has none being as he existed before substance came to be. Both the earth and the heavens have substance as God created them.

How is substance separated from non-substance?

could you explain what substance it is '' GOD HIS SPIRIT “

SO SPIRIT = ? WHAT SUBSTANCE ???/

Love is spirit. What substance does love have.

Here is a blog from Psychology today that might help.

Quote

In reality, love is not an object. We can feel it, but we can not touch it. We can not see it, but we can observe its effects. Like oxygen, the presence of love is life enhancing, and has a measurable impact upon the body. Unlike oxygen, love is not an odorless and tasteless gas that can be metabolized and used up. Love is not diminished by its expenditure, but like well-invested capital, the more we use it, the more it grows. If we understood that love is a frequency, a vibration, a state of consciousness, which can be summoned at will and is totally inexhaustible, our fears of losing love would lose their power over us.

Note: Here is my source.

April 21, 2013 at 1:44 pm#342499

Participant

Quote (942767 @ April 21 2013,08:05)

Quote (kerwin @ April 21 2013,09:08)

To all,

Certain Jews believe Trinitarians translation of Isaiah 9:6-7 are of poor quality.

Quote

…and his name will be called, 'A wonderful counselor is the mighty Gd, an everlasting father is the ruler of peace.'

Here is my source. Its bias is that Jesus is not the Messiah.

Hi Kerwin:

Of course, we know that his name is Jesus, and not “wonderful counselor, etc., but “name” here denotes his reputation because of his life of obedience to God.

Quote

and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Thus we have him stating in John 14:

Quote

Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,

I tend to look at Jewish interpretations and regard them as more believable than Trinitarians because Jews are true monotheists to this day.

I also go by the principle that if a scripture can be interpreted according to the truth then is should. Neither version is at odds with what I believe but both can be considered.

The last I knew Jehovah was never called Mighty God. Almighty seems more appropriate for him.

April 21, 2013 at 3:15 pm#342503