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WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Yet we know that men still build and others inhabit. And we know that men still plant and others eat. Where is the fulfillment of these things Jack? thethinker replied:
Quote It was the Lord Himself who took from them and gave to their enemies as a punishment for their sin (62:8-9). Does God take from you today and give to your enemies as punishment for your sin? Answer: No! The government may take from you but God does not because your sin has been punished in Christ! Nick chastens thethinker:
Quote Your base you doctrines on the flimsy tacking together of verses with logic and allegorise what does not fit. TO ALL:
The statements above by WJ and Nick demonstrate the chief problem with the futurist method of interpretation of prophecy. Futurists will not put themselves in the shoes of the original recipients when they read prophetic statements in scripture. They incessantly super impose their ideas and reduce these prophecies to the carnal level.
Isaiah prophesied that in the new earth God's people would build their houses and not another inhabit. They would plant their own crops and not another eat.
Quote 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands, 66:21-22Now WJ says that this has not been fulfilled because we see that men labor and another will enjoy the fruit of his labor. Maybe WJ thinks the prophecy is talking about the abolition of socialism or marxism.
It is imperative that such language be interpreted within its own context. In essence God was promising that in the new earth His people would no longer labor in vain as a punishment for their sins. It was God Himself who took the fruit of their labors and gave it to their enemies to punish them. Note what God said,
Quote 8 The LORD has sworn by His right hand
And by the arm of His strength:“ Surely I will no longer give your grain
As food for your enemies;
And the sons of the foreigner shall not drink your new wine,
For which you have labored.
9 But those who have gathered it shall eat it,
And praise the LORD;
Those who have brought it together shall drink it in My holy courts.” 62:8-9It was God who took the fruit of their labor from them and gave it to their enemies. He did this to punish them for their sins. So when God said that they will build and not another inhabit, or they will plant and not another eat, He was saying that a time would come when He would no longer punish them for their sins.
Does God now take from you to punish you? No! He deals differently with His people now. God does not do this now because He is satisfied with the once for all punishment Christ took for our sins. Thus He allows us to enjoy the fruits of our labors. The issue of social justice among men is not at all present in the prophecy.
It is all about the gospel message. It is all about God's dealings with you under new covenant principles. This prophecy is being fulfilled right before our very eyes. But Nick says that I am “allegorizing” the text. But let Nick and WJ show that this prophecy is about the abolition of socialism or any other “ism.” It is about the gospel. It is about the fact that God does not deal with us according to our sins anymore. This prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes. It is because the futurists have reduced prophecies about the kingdom to the carnal level we fail to see the fulfillment.
The strength in the preterist method to which I hold is that the gospel message is found in prophecy and the blessings of the new covenant age proclaimed.
I know that WJ has the potential to see this. But I am not too optimistic about old Nick.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 06 2009,18:08) This prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes. It is because the futurists have reduced prophecies about the kingdom to the carnal level we fail to see the fulfillment.
Hi allThe above statement of Jack is a missrepresentation of the truth because unlike preterist which seem to “Spiritualize” everything away, the futurist looks at Prophesy as having a litteral and/or spiritual fulfillment based on context.
So tell us Jack, since you say…
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 06 2009,18:08) Thus He allows us to enjoy the fruits of our labors. The issue of social justice among men is not at all present in the prophecy. It is all about the gospel message. It is all about God's dealings with you under new covenant principles. This prophecy is being fulfilled right before our very eyes.
that these things are being fulfilled before our very eyes, then why do we see from 70AD till now, millions of believers that suffered at the hands of the enemies of God by taking all they laboured for and killed them? They died a Martydom death and there are still some this very day that are dieing for the Gospel message!How is it that Jesus is in the “clouds” as you say and lets this happen? Is God not concerned for our physical well being also?
Is this promise that you talk about being fulfilled before our eyes when these things are happening today?
Take note all how Jack ignores certain things that are said and comments only on what he cares to address as I shall show in the other thread.
Tell us Jack, Is the Fathers throne in the clouds, where is Jesus seated at this time? Has he established the throne of David in the earth yet or is this where you spiritualize it away also?
So if that is what you will do then what about all the prophesys about Davids throne being established in the earth again? Do we just toss them away?
What about Zech chapters 12 and 14, have they been fulfilled yet?
WJ
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote The above statement of Jack is a missrepresentation of the truth because unlike preterist which seem to “Spiritualize” everything away, the futurist looks at Prophesy as having a litteral and/or spiritual fulfillment based on context.
TO ALL:WJ has said that the futurist looks at prophecy literal or spiritual based on context. But it is the preterist who takes the statements about “bringing forth children” literally. The futurists say that the new earth is the so called “eternal state” meaning that it is a state of total immortality. So they must either spiritualize or deny outright that there is procreation in the new earth.
In Isaiah's prophecy it says that men will travel from “islands” to hear about the Lord. I take the word “islands” literally with its implication that the new earth has a sea. Yet WJ denies that the new earth has a sea. He approaches his eschatology like the anti-trinitarians approach Christology. He bases his futurist views on select statements of scripture.
My treatment of men building houses and another inhabiting was also literal but restricted to what Israel would have understood it to mean in its old covenant context. WJ would rather ignore the old covenant context and generalize the prophecy. You all may see for yourselves that I have interpreted Isaiah's new earth literally thus far.
WJ:
Quote So tell us Jack, since you say…that these things are being fulfilled before our very eyes, then why do we see from 70AD till now, millions of believers that suffered at the hands of the enemies of God by taking all they laboured for and killed them? They died a Martydom death and there are still some this very day that are dieing for the Gospel message!
So you're saying that it is God who makes His people suffer? I said that it is no longer God who takes from His people and gives to their enemies as a punishment for their sins. Either you did not comprehend what I said or you are creating a smoke screen. The prophecy is about God's dealings with us.WJ:
Quote Tell us Jack, Is the Fathers throne in the clouds, where is Jesus seated at this time? Has he established the throne of David in the earth yet or is this where you spiritualize it away also?
Where does the Bible say that Christ's throne will be on earth? You must show me a passage which says this before I can “spiritualize” it. Peter said that he took the throne of His father David when He was resurrected:Acts 2:29-31:
Quote 29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. There it is friends! When David prophesied the ascension of Christ to the throne he was speaking about the resurrection of Christ. Our brother has just implicitly denied that Christ NOW has been given ALL authority in heaven and earth. If He has ALL authority in earth NOW, then why the need to relocate David's throne to the earth?
Oh watch our futurist brother moon walk away from this one. Futurists do not like to talk about Peter's sermon in reference to Christ's ascension to David's throne at the resurrection.
Yes Zechariah 12-14 has been fulfilled.
p.s. I made the time to post a little more today.
thinker
Hi TT,
Truth is not the remnants of a battle between futurism and preterism.
Lift your sights from the carnal and learn from scripture.Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,11:20) Yes Zechariah 12-14 has been fulfilled.
Thinker,In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zechariah 14:4)
When did this occur?You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! (Zechariah 14:5)
When did this occur?And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. (Zechariah 14:8)
When did this occur?All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses. (Zechariah 14:11)
When did this occur?People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security. (Zechariah 14:11)
When did this occur?Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. (Zechariah 14:12)
When did this occur?Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths (Zechariah 14:16)
When did this occur?And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. (Zechariah 14:16)
When did this occur?Questions, questions, questions….
Quote (georg @ Nov. 08 2009,22:17) thethinker does everything but think. Georg
Georg,Disprove me then.thinker
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 08 2009,18:25) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,11:20) Yes Zechariah 12-14 has been fulfilled.
Thinker,In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zechariah 14:4)
When did this occur?You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! (Zechariah 14:5)
When did this occur?And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. (Zechariah 14:8)
When did this occur?All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses. (Zechariah 14:11)
When did this occur?People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security. (Zechariah 14:11)
When did this occur?Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. (Zechariah 14:12)
When did this occur?Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths (Zechariah 14:16)
When did this occur?And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. (Zechariah 14:16)
When did this occur?Questions, questions, questions….
Hi Paul,
You know that I am a staunch trinitarian so please don't misunderstand what I am about to say. The passage you have cited says that Jehovah will stand on the Mt. of Olives. In Zechariah we see that Jehovah is to be distinguished from the Messenger of Jehovah (Christ). Your treatment of the Mt. of Olives prophecy reflects the trinitarian misuse of the text. Aside from Zechariah's text there is no other scripture in the whole Bible which says that Christ will return to earth. And Zechariah's text is not speaking about Christ.Zechariah's prophecy was speaking about a visitation of Jehovah in Zechariah's own time. The same kind of language was used when God delivered the Israelites from the bondage in Egypt. Moses' song says that Jehovah was a “man of war” riding on a chariot. Please note that old covenant is still in effect in Zechariah's prophecy. This is how we know that the fulfillment is past. God will never again bring back the old covenant.
Seeing that the anti-trinitarians deny that Christ is Jehovah they must side with me that Zechariah's prophecy is not speaking about Christ. So the anti-trinitarians have no scripture which says that Christ will return to the earth. And the trinitarians invoke Zechariah when it is not is not even speaking about Christ. Therefore, both the anti-trinitarians and the trinitarians have nothing, zilch, nada. The scripture does NOT teach that Christ would return to earth. It teaches that He would come in judgment upon the generation that rejected Him. And that coming was not to the earth any more than the comings of God in old testament times. So you can see that the futurists really don't have anything solid to support their theory that Christ will return to earth. Paul clearly said that Jesus would descend from heaven and that those who are living would be “caught UP” to meet Him. Why are they “caught UP” to meet Him if He is on the earth?
Please produce just one new testament scripture which says that Christ will return to earth. There is not one new testament scripture. The theory that Christ will return to earth is a figment of the futurist's imagination!
thinker
Hi thethinker:
You say:
Quote Please produce just one new testament scripture which says that Christ will return to earth. There is not one new testament scripture. The theory that Christ will return to earth is a figment of the futurist's imagination! The following scriptures don't say specifically coming down from heaven to earth, but do say coming down from heaven, therefore, it appears that it means down to earth from heaven.
Quote Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:9 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 ¶ And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,12:16) Hi Paul,
You know that I am a staunch trinitarian so please don't misunderstand what I am about to say. The passage you have cited says that Jehovah will stand on the Mt. of Olives. In Zechariah we see that Jehovah is to be distinguished from the Messenger of Jehovah (Christ). Your treatment of the Mt. of Olives prophecy reflects the trinitarian misuse of the text. Aside from Zechariah's text there is no other scripture in the whole Bible which says that Christ will return to earth. And Zechariah's text is not speaking about Christ.Zechariah's prophecy was speaking about a visitation of Jehovah in Zechariah's own time. The same kind of language was used when God delivered the Israelites from the bondage in Egypt. Moses' song says that Jehovah was a “man of war” riding on a chariot. Please note that old covenant is still in effect in Zechariah's prophecy. This is how we know that the fulfillment is past. God will never again bring back the old covenant.
Seeing that the anti-trinitarians deny that Christ is Jehovah they must side with me that Zechariah's prophecy is not speaking about Christ. So the anti-trinitarians have no scripture which says that Christ will return to the earth. And the trinitarians invoke Zechariah when it is not is not even speaking about Christ. Therefore, both the anti-trinitarians and the trinitarians have nothing, zilch, nada. The scripture does NOT teach that Christ would return to earth. It teaches that He would come in judgment upon the generation that rejected Him. And that coming was not to the earth any more than the comings of God in old testament times. So you can see that the futurists really don't have anything solid to support their theory that Christ will return to earth. Paul clearly said that Jesus would descend from heaven and that those who are living would be “caught UP” to meet Him. Why are they “caught UP” to meet Him if He is on the earth?
Please produce just one new testament scripture which says that Christ will return to earth. There is not one new testament scripture. The theory that Christ will return to earth is a figment of the futurist's imagination!
thinker
Well yes, I do happen to believe this passage speaks of Yeshua, there is some good evidence for this. Here is some….Thinker, there is only One God, YHWH. If your position is that Yeshua is God but He is NOT YHWH then you have a some pretty confronting contraditions to work through.
Isaiah 44:6
This is what the LORD says—Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.Thinker, are you seriously proposing that all the detailed prophecies given in Zechariah 14 were fulfilled in Zechariah's day by the Father?!?!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2009,01:41) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,12:16) Hi Paul,
You know that I am a staunch trinitarian so please don't misunderstand what I am about to say. The passage you have cited says that Jehovah will stand on the Mt. of Olives. In Zechariah we see that Jehovah is to be distinguished from the Messenger of Jehovah (Christ). Your treatment of the Mt. of Olives prophecy reflects the trinitarian misuse of the text. Aside from Zechariah's text there is no other scripture in the whole Bible which says that Christ will return to earth. And Zechariah's text is not speaking about Christ.Zechariah's prophecy was speaking about a visitation of Jehovah in Zechariah's own time. The same kind of language was used when God delivered the Israelites from the bondage in Egypt. Moses' song says that Jehovah was a “man of war” riding on a chariot. Please note that old covenant is still in effect in Zechariah's prophecy. This is how we know that the fulfillment is past. God will never again bring back the old covenant.
Seeing that the anti-trinitarians deny that Christ is Jehovah they must side with me that Zechariah's prophecy is not speaking about Christ. So the anti-trinitarians have no scripture which says that Christ will return to the earth. And the trinitarians invoke Zechariah when it is not is not even speaking about Christ. Therefore, both the anti-trinitarians and the trinitarians have nothing, zilch, nada. The scripture does NOT teach that Christ would return to earth. It teaches that He would come in judgment upon the generation that rejected Him. And that coming was not to the earth any more than the comings of God in old testament times. So you can see that the futurists really don't have anything solid to support their theory that Christ will return to earth. Paul clearly said that Jesus would descend from heaven and that those who are living would be “caught UP” to meet Him. Why are they “caught UP” to meet Him if He is on the earth?
Please produce just one new testament scripture which says that Christ will return to earth. There is not one new testament scripture. The theory that Christ will return to earth is a figment of the futurist's imagination!
thinker
Well yes, I do happen to believe this passage speaks of Yeshua, there is some good evidence for this. Here is some….Thinker, there is only One God, YHWH. If your position is that Yeshua is God but He is NOT YHWH then you have a some pretty confronting contraditions to work through.
Isaiah 44:6
This is what the LORD says—Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.Thinker, are you seriously proposing that all the detailed prophecies given in Zechariah 14 were fulfilled in Zechariah's day by the Father?!?!
Hi PaulTrue, I think he is equivicating!
Blessings Keith
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 08 2009,20:16) Paul clearly said that Jesus would descend from heaven and that those who are living would be “caught UP” to meet Him. Why are they “caught UP” to meet Him if He is on the earth?
Because the clouds are the place of meeting just as a general when he calls his warriors to war their meeting place is at base.Then after we meet him in the clouds we return with him to rule and to reign with him when his feet touches the mount of olives…
… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5
Jack, when did all the saints return with the Father?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,12:16) Paul clearly said that Jesus would descend from heaven and that those who are living would be “caught UP” to meet Him. Why are they “caught UP” to meet Him if He is on the earth?
I see these as two seperate events with the “catching up” preceeding the second coming of Yeshua….Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2009,12:48) Hi TT,
Jesus spoke of his return many times .
Were you not listening as you had a dogma to tend?
He did not speak about a return to earth. Show me where.thinker
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2009,17:41) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,12:16) Hi Paul,
You know that I am a staunch trinitarian so please don't misunderstand what I am about to say. The passage you have cited says that Jehovah will stand on the Mt. of Olives. In Zechariah we see that Jehovah is to be distinguished from the Messenger of Jehovah (Christ). Your treatment of the Mt. of Olives prophecy reflects the trinitarian misuse of the text. Aside from Zechariah's text there is no other scripture in the whole Bible which says that Christ will return to earth. And Zechariah's text is not speaking about Christ.Zechariah's prophecy was speaking about a visitation of Jehovah in Zechariah's own time. The same kind of language was used when God delivered the Israelites from the bondage in Egypt. Moses' song says that Jehovah was a “man of war” riding on a chariot. Please note that old covenant is still in effect in Zechariah's prophecy. This is how we know that the fulfillment is past. God will never again bring back the old covenant.
Seeing that the anti-trinitarians deny that Christ is Jehovah they must side with me that Zechariah's prophecy is not speaking about Christ. So the anti-trinitarians have no scripture which says that Christ will return to the earth. And the trinitarians invoke Zechariah when it is not is not even speaking about Christ. Therefore, both the anti-trinitarians and the trinitarians have nothing, zilch, nada. The scripture does NOT teach that Christ would return to earth. It teaches that He would come in judgment upon the generation that rejected Him. And that coming was not to the earth any more than the comings of God in old testament times. So you can see that the futurists really don't have anything solid to support their theory that Christ will return to earth. Paul clearly said that Jesus would descend from heaven and that those who are living would be “caught UP” to meet Him. Why are they “caught UP” to meet Him if He is on the earth?
Please produce just one new testament scripture which says that Christ will return to earth. There is not one new testament scripture. The theory that Christ will return to earth is a figment of the futurist's imagination!
thinker
Well yes, I do happen to believe this passage speaks of Yeshua, there is some good evidence for this. Here is some….Thinker, there is only One God, YHWH. If your position is that Yeshua is God but He is NOT YHWH then you have a some pretty confronting contraditions to work through.
Isaiah 44:6
This is what the LORD says—Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.Thinker, are you seriously proposing that all the detailed prophecies given in Zechariah 14 were fulfilled in Zechariah's day by the Father?!?!
Paul,
Watch it now. God is one in THREE distinct persons. Jehovah is distinguished from the Messenger of Jehovah in their activities.In chapter one the Messenger of Jehovah engages in discourse with Jehovah.
Quote 12Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, “O LORD of hosts, how long will YOU not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which YOU hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?”
13And the LORD answered the angel who talked with me, with good words and comforting words.
14So the angel who communed with me said unto me, “Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts: `I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy.This is as clear as a bell Paul. It says that the Messenger of Jehovah asked a question of Jehovah saying, “How long will YOU not have mercy on Jerusalem?” Then Jehovah answers His Messenger and the messenger relays that answer to Zechariah saying, “Jehovah has said.”
This does NOT support the anti-trinitarian claim that the Messenger of Jehovah was not God for in 3:1 we see that Joshua is “standing before” the Messenger of Jehovah. This meant that Joshua was praying to the Messenger which indicates that the Messenger was God.
The acts of Jehovah and His Messenger are kept distinct throughout the book. In 1:3 Jehovah said, “I will return to you.” This was NOT the Messenger speaking. In chapter 14 it says that Jehovah's feet will stand on the Mt. of Olives. It is not the Messenger who will stand on the Mt. of Olives. We know this because in 13:7 Jehovah speaks and says that His shepherd is “the man who stands next to me” (ESV). The shepherd is the Messenger of Jehovah.
From 13:7 through to the prophecy of Jehovah standing on the Mt. Of Olives we do not see the distinction in the acts of the Messenger comingled with the acts of Jehovah. The distinction in their respective acts is consistently maintained.
Now be careful that you do not emphasize the unity of God to the exclusion of the individual Persons and their respective acts. Are you willing to give up your trinitarianism for the silly futurist speculations regarding prophecy?
So when it comes right down to it you have nothing conclusive from Zechariah to support the futurist theory that Christ will return to earth. And I am still waiting for you to produce a statement from the new testament which makes such a claim.
WJ said to Paul:
Quote True, I think he is equivicating!
Hmmmm…. This is what the anti-trinitarians say of trinitarians generally.thinker
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2009,18:08) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,12:16) Paul clearly said that Jesus would descend from heaven and that those who are living would be “caught UP” to meet Him. Why are they “caught UP” to meet Him if He is on the earth?
I see these as two seperate events with the “catching up” preceeding the second coming of Yeshua….
And your scriptural basis is…? Paul said that the living are caught up AFTER His return:“After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Because the clouds are the place of meeting just as a general when he calls his warriors to war their meeting place is at base.
Keith,
Not likely. The Greek “en” may also be rendered “through”. They go upward through the clouds to meet Him.
What war? You have said that Peter teaches that when the Lord returns this earth will be destroyed. Are they going to come back down and fight on the new earth?
Jack
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