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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,14:57) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:34) Your view of Jesus helping JEHOVAH with creation impinges on Isaiah 37:16 & 44:24.
My view is that Jesus’ crucifixion was the means of his participation in the matter. (John 8:14)
My view doesn't have Jesus “helping” the Father at all. My view has the Father creating everything ALONE, but doing that THROUGH Jesus.It is your view that mentions a “participation” of Jesus, which would impinge on Is 37 and 44.
But I don't take the “ALONE” the same way as you do anyway. I take it as if Bill Gates said, “I created Microsoft ALONE – ALL BY MYSELF.”
We know that is an accurate statement from one point of view. But we also know that Bill Gates had much help building Microsoft.
By the time God spoke those words through Isaiah, there was not one living flesh and blood being who hadn't been created by God THROUGH many other people. So God didn't LITERALLY create Isaiah himself “ALONE”. He did it THROUGH Isaiah's human parents, grandparents, etc, etc.
So there are at least two different ways you can understand the word “ALONE”. What I've told you is how I understand it. But in order to not impinge upon God's own words, I just stick to scriptures in this matter. And scripture allows for all things to have been created by God ALONE, but at the same time THROUGH Jesus.
Just as I ALONE am sending you this post, but I'm doing it THROUGH the internet.
Not that any of this changes the fact that all things came through the Word, God's Son, AND our Lord Jesus Christ, making a rock-solid case that all of them are the same being.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,I'm not interested in Bill Gates or Microsoft. What does “Through” mean to you?
Could you please explain in what capacity Jesus participated if not to be slain?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:01) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,21:44) Hi Mike, This thread is to show “Who” The Word is, is it not?
I have and will continue to provide much evidence
to illustrate “The Word” is the “HolySpirit” of God.
That's fine. But in the meantime, have we cleared up this “OF God” issue? Will I ever again have to be sidetracked from the issue at hand by your comments about the Greek language not having the word “of”, when you know full well that they have another way of conveying the word “of”?I hope not. To me, that kind of thing is nothing but an intentional diversion tactic.
Hi Mike,The way I understand the Genitive form of a word in Greek,
it can be worded in English all of the following ways…God's Spirit
Spirit of God
The God SpiritThe way I see it: all three of these are applicable,
You have provided nothing to indicate anything else.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:45) 1. The “Glory” is not what is at issue here, but “Who” The Word is.
I'm sorry………………where exactly does it say it is the Word's glory in Romans 8:18?2. God has God's glory. The Word has the Word's glory. Mike has Mike's glory. King Solomon had King Solomon's glory. The sun has the sun's glory. The moon has the moon's glory. Etc, etc, etc.
Ed, now there are TWO points you have not addressed. Instead, you now want to ignore these two points. I realize that we are slowly but surely getting to the bottom of who the Word is. But in the process, I want the inaccurate things you post to be addressed as we go.
I want you to CLEARLY ACKNOWLEDGE that the Greek language has a very understandable way of conveying possession, as in “OF God”. Will you ACKNOWLEDGE this for the record?
I want you to acknowledge that you quoted Romans 8:18 as some kind of proof of the Word's glory, when it is not the Word's glory mentioned there. Will you ACKNOWLEDGE this?
I want you to acknowledge that MANY of God's creations have their own glory, and not all glory is God's glory. Will you acknowledge this?
You see Ed, if you don't ACKNOWLEDGE the things you are learning as you go, then I won't know that you've learned them. And then, sometime down the road, you will bring the same exact points up to me again, and I will again have to take time out of my life RE-explaining this stuff to you.
So as you make claims on our search to discover who the Word is, and I scripturally REFUTE those claims and show them to be scripturally inaccurate, I want ACKNOWLEDGMENT that you understand they are scripturally inaccurate.
peace,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:11) The way I understand the Genitive form of a word in Greek,
it can be worded in English all of the following ways…God's Spirit
Spirit of God
The God SpiritThe way I see it: all three of these are applicable,
You have provided nothing to indicate anything else.
Ed, this is the Greek word “Spirit” and the genitive form of “God”:πνεῦμα θεοῦ
If you can find those same words in those same forms somewhere in the Greek scriptures where they are translated as “The God Spirit”, please reveal that information to me.
If not, then “The God Spirit” as an accurate translation of those words is only in your mind, caused by your personal agenda.
So either find those words translated as “The God Spirit”, or let that definition go. It is not for me to prove the negative here. If YOU have proof of “The God Spirit” translation of those words, name the scripture so I can check it out and see it for myself.
If not, then accept that the genitive form of God along with the word Spirit means “Spirit OF God”, or, to put it another way, “God's Spirit”.
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:06) Hi Mike, I'm not interested in Bill Gates or Microsoft. What does “Through” mean to you?
Could you please explain in what capacity Jesus participated if not to be slain?
Ed,Jesus was not slain before the world was founded. That is a bad translation of Rev 13:8. First God created all through Jesus, THEN the Lamb was slain much later.
Nor would being killed constitute having all things created through you.
I cannot explain in what capacity Jesus participated, Ed. I simply don't know. I believe he was the “master craftsman” at God's side, but I don't know what that means exactly.
That's why I showed you my own understanding, and then added the disclaimer that I will just stick to what the scriptures say. And the scriptures say that God ALONE created everything. But they also say He did that THROUGH Jesus Christ.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:13) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:45) 1. The “Glory” is not what is at issue here, but “Who” The Word is.
I'm sorry………………where exactly does it say it is the Word's glory in Romans 8:18?peace,
mike
Shalom Mike,For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:18-19)The Glory, revealed in us, is based on our manifestation as the sons of God.
This is how the same Glory was seen in Jesus. (John 1:14)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,02:54) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:46) Hi Mike, The Bible also says that “The Word” of God makes everything as well…
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by The Word of God. (Heb 11:3)
All things were made by him(The Word); (John 1:3)So using your logic (quoted in my post) it's pretty simple to see that “The Word” is God; right?
God bless
Ed J
I'm glad you pointed out Hebrews 11:3. The Greek word translated as “word” there is “rhema”, not “logos”. This one surely shoots Paladin's “logos” versus “rhema” theory right out of the water!Now Ed, tell me if every single mention of “word” in the whole Bible refers to “the Word of God”. For example, if the scripture said, “And Isaiah proceeded to relay the word of God to the people”, would this use of “word” mean the same thing as “The Word of God”?
Point #2: All things did come FROM God and THROUGH His Word, so Heb 11:3 could be referring to the worlds being framed THROUGH Jesus.
Point #3: Do you see the little word “OF” in your scripture? Once again, the word OF God cannot BE the God it is OF.
Ed, point #3 is very simple, common logic. Even a kindergartener possesses this logic. If the bone is OF the dog, even 5 year olds know that means the bone cannot possibly BE the dog.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,1) Is the mind of Mike, Mike? …what were you thinking; Mike?
2) Is the body of Mike, Mike? …what were you doing; Mike?The only way you can say no to either of these first two questions is “ONLY” with added rudimentary logic.
Rudimentary logic based entirely on you not willing to see your view as incompatible with certain Scriptures.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,I'm still waiting for you to address the three points I made. Please answer to each one DIRECTLY.
To answer your questions:
1. No
2. NoIf you add #1 and #2 together, then add in my spirit and soul, you'll be getting much closer to who Mike is. But the spirit OF Mike is not Mike. Nor is the soul OF Mike. Nor the body OF Mike. Nor the mind OF Mike.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:13) I want you to CLEARLY ACKNOWLEDGE that the Greek language has a very understandable way of conveying possession, as in “OF God”. Will you ACKNOWLEDGE this for the record? peace,
mike
Hi Mike,It is your contention that the word “OF” is the only way
the Greek genitive can be illustrated in English; is it not?
If so, then it is your place to prove this contention; is it not?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mike,
The glory of the planets are not what we are discussing here.
To say that the planets have glory does not apply to our topic one bit.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:13) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:45) 1. The “Glory” is not what is at issue here, but “Who” The Word is.
I'm sorry………………where exactly does it say it is the Word's glory in Romans 8:18?peace,
mike
Shalom Mike,For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:18-19)The Glory, revealed in us, is based on our manifestation as the sons of God.
This is how the same Glory was seen in Jesus. (John 1:14)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
So then Romans 8:18 DOESN'T say anything at all about the Word's glory, right?Please just acknowledge this FACT.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:13) I want you to CLEARLY ACKNOWLEDGE that the Greek language has a very understandable way of conveying possession, as in “OF God”. Will you ACKNOWLEDGE this for the record? peace,
mike
Hi Mike,It is your contention that the word “OF” is the only way
the Greek genitive can be illustrated in English; is it not?
If so, then it is your place to prove this contention; is it not?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No, it is YOUR unfounded and unsubstantiated claim that the word “spirit” combined with the genitive form of “god” can mean “The God Spirit”. Since this is YOUR imagined theory, please produce some evidence to show your claim is valid.Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:37) Hi Mike, The glory of the planets are not what we are discussing here.
To say that the planets have glory does not apply to our topic one bit.God bless
Ed J
It does when I'm arguing against someone who thinks God ALONE has glory. Ed, that is simply not what scripture teaches.And for you to blow off my scriptural examples of creations of God having a glory of their own shows that you are being led, not by truth, but by your own “truth”.
Ed, God is not the only being in existence who has glory. Do you accept this scriptural FACT?
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,21:01) Hi Mike, Do you really think you’re telling me something that I myself have not also considered?
Have you not noticed that the kings of the Earth make war against “The Lamb” in Rev.17:14.
And “The HolySpirit”(called The Word) makes war against the kings of the Earth in Rev.19:11-21.
What I notice in 17 is that the beast and the kings of the earth WILL make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome because HE is the Lord of lords.Then I notice in 19 that the beast and the kings of the earth DO make war against the Word of God who is the Lord of lords, and HE DOES overcome them.
Ed, are you blinded by your own theory? Can you not see that the beast and the kings of the earth make war against only ONE Lord of lords, and that ONE Lord of lords is both the Word of God AND the Lamb of God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:36) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,02:54) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:46) Hi Mike, The Bible also says that “The Word” of God makes everything as well…
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by The Word of God. (Heb 11:3)
All things were made by him(The Word); (John 1:3)So using your logic (quoted in my post) it's pretty simple to see that “The Word” is God; right?
God bless
Ed J
I'm glad you pointed out Hebrews 11:3. The Greek word translated as “word” there is “rhema”, not “logos”. This one surely shoots Paladin's “logos” versus “rhema” theory right out of the water!Now Ed, tell me if every single mention of “word” in the whole Bible refers to “the Word of God”. For example, (Point #1) if the scripture said, “And Isaiah proceeded to relay the word of God to the people”, would this use of “word” mean the same thing as “The Word of God”?
Point #2: All things did come FROM God and THROUGH His Word, so Heb 11:3 could be referring to the worlds being framed THROUGH Jesus.
Point #3: Do you see the little word “OF” in your scripture? Once again, the word OF God cannot BE the God it is OF.
Ed, point #3 is very simple, common logic. Even a kindergartener possesses this logic. If the bone is OF the dog, even 5 year olds know that means the bone cannot possibly BE the dog.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,1) Is the mind of Mike, Mike? …what were you thinking; Mike?
2) Is the body of Mike, Mike? …what were you doing; Mike?The only way you can say no to either of these first two questions is “ONLY” with added rudimentary logic.
Rudimentary logic based entirely on you not willing to see your view as incompatible with certain Scriptures.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,I'm still waiting for you to address the three points I made. Please answer to each one DIRECTLY.
To answer your questions:
1. No
2. NoIf you add #1 and #2 together, then add in my spirit and soul, you'll be getting much closer to who Mike is. But the spirit OF Mike is not Mike. Nor is the soul OF Mike. Nor the body OF Mike. Nor the mind OF Mike.
Hi Mike,The only reason you are answering no, is to support your contention; is it not? <– Please answer
When someone asks you “What were you thinking, Mike?”
Have you ever told them …'my mind is not me?' (I don't think so!)When your body is in a coffin, you will not be able to say
that body was not you; you do know that, don't you?Point #1. Sure, you would not?
Point #2. “The Word” is the “HolySpirit”.
Point #3. My two examples illustrate otherwise.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,21:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,03:01) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2011,12:55) Ed, do you believe that the Lamb of God who was slain is God's Holy Spirit?
Hi Mike,Not entirely: At Jesus birth he was 1/2 HolySpirit, and after
his baptism he was filled with the HolySpirit. (See John 3:34)God bless
Ed J
Ed, (1)how can the Holy Spirit be FILLED with the Holy Spirit?
(2)Do you understand that the Lamb of God is Jesus Christ or not?
Hi Mike,1) You asking this question proves that you do not understand what I have been telling you.
2) Yes.
God bless
Ed J
1. Apparently not. So why not just answer the question then?2. Okay. Now you just have to realize that the Lamb from 17 is the Word from 19, and you'll be well on your way.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:38) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:13) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:45) 1. The “Glory” is not what is at issue here, but “Who” The Word is.
I'm sorry………………where exactly does it say it is the Word's glory in Romans 8:18?peace,
mike
Shalom Mike,For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:18-19)The Glory, revealed in us, is based on our manifestation as the sons of God.
This is how the same Glory was seen in Jesus. (John 1:14)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
So then Romans 8:18 DOESN'T say anything at all about the Word's glory, right?Please just acknowledge this FACT.
Hi Mike,Your asking the wrong question.
The question you should be asking is
do you see “The Word” written in Rom.8:18.
However, it is indeed referring to “The Word's glory in us.And we beheld his(The Word's) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:26) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:11) The way I understand the Genitive form of a word in Greek,
it can be worded in English all of the following ways…God's Spirit
Spirit of God
The God SpiritThe way I see it: all three of these are applicable,
You have provided nothing to indicate anything else.
Ed, this is the Greek word “Spirit” and the genitive form of “God”:πνεῦμα θεοῦ
If you can find those same words in those same forms somewhere in the Greek scriptures where they are translated as “The God Spirit”, please reveal that information to me.
If not, then “The God Spirit” as an accurate translation of those words is only in your mind, caused by your personal agenda.
So either find those words translated as “The God Spirit”, or let that definition go. It is not for me to prove the negative here. If YOU have proof of “The God Spirit” translation of those words, name the scripture so I can check it out and see it for myself.
If not, then accept that the genitive form of God along with the word Spirit means “Spirit OF God”, or, to put it another way, “God's Spirit”.
mike
Hi Mike,Because the AKJV Bible has not translated it as the “God Spirit”,
is not proof that it cannot be translated in this manner.
Do you have any “actual proof” that it cannot?The fact that you accept “God's Spirit” as an alternative to “Spirit of God” is enough for me.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:32) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:06) Hi Mike, I'm not interested in Bill Gates or Microsoft. What does “Through” mean to you?
Could you please explain in what capacity Jesus participated if not to be slain?
Ed,Jesus was not slain before the world was founded. That is a bad translation of Rev 13:8. First God created all through Jesus, THEN the Lamb was slain much later.
Nor would being killed constitute having all things created through you.
I cannot explain in what capacity Jesus participated, Ed. I simply don't know. I believe he was the “master craftsman” at God's side, but I don't know what that means exactly.
That's why I showed you my own understanding, and then added the disclaimer that I will just stick to what the scriptures say. And the scriptures say that God ALONE created everything. But they also say He did that THROUGH Jesus Christ.
Hi Mike,If you don't know in what capacity,
then why would you discount my assertion?
My assertion being that it was through Jesus' crucifixion.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:40) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:13) I want you to CLEARLY ACKNOWLEDGE that the Greek language has a very understandable way of conveying possession, as in “OF God”. Will you ACKNOWLEDGE this for the record? peace,
mike
Hi Mike,It is your contention that the word “OF” is the only way
the Greek genitive can be illustrated in English; is it not?
If so, then it is your place to prove this contention; is it not?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
No, it is YOUR unfounded and unsubstantiated claim that the word “spirit” combined with the genitive form of “god” can mean “The God Spirit”. Since this is YOUR imagined theory, please produce some evidence to show your claim is valid.
Hi Mike,I will refrain from using the phrase “The God Spirit” to you; OK?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,15:45) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,22:37) Hi Mike, The glory of the planets are not what we are discussing here.
To say that the planets have glory does not apply to our topic one bit.God bless
Ed J
It does when I'm arguing against someone who thinks God ALONE has glory. Ed, that is simply not what scripture teaches.And for you to blow off my scriptural examples of creations of God having a glory of their own shows that you are being led, not by truth, but by your own “truth”.
Ed, God is not the only being in existence who has glory. Do you accept this scriptural FACT?
Hi Mike,What is at issue here is what “Glory” is it that will be revealed in us, if it is not in the same capacity as it was in Jesus; correct?
My contention is the Glory that will be revealed in us is in the same capacity as it was in Jesus; do you disagree?For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:18-19)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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