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Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:47) Hi Mike, The way I understand the Genitive form of a word in Greek,
it can be worded in English all of the following ways…God's Spirit
Spirit of God
The God SpiritGod bless
Ed J
The first two are correct. The last one is not even a possibility in the Greek language.Does knowing this fact change the way you understand things?
Or will your personal choice for what the scriptures teach prove to outweigh the facts of the matter?
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:44)
Hi Mike,You believe that Rev.13:8 teaches that Jesus preexisted,
and that Jesus also had the “Book of Life” in his possession.
Why don't you believe that his being slain was also predetermined?
Whether or not Jesus' sacrifice was foreknown by God has no bearing on his pre-existence. For example, God apparently knows that four angels will someday hold back the winds until the 144,000 have the seal on their foreheads. (Rev 7:1-4) Is that proof that these four angels don't yet exist, just because they are foreordained for a specific purpose at some later date?Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:44)
Jesus death on the cross was the means of the question you keep asking.1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things (are Created), and we in him; and one
Lord Jesus Christ, by whom (his death burial and
resurrection) are all things, and we by him.
The word “whom” does not mean “one's death and burial”. The word “whom” is a pronoun referring to a person himself, and not any action that person carried out.It seems you want the scripture to say all things are through “the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ”. Unfortunately for you, the scripture simply doesn't say that. Instead, the scripture says that all things are through the PERSON Jesus Christ.
Ed, look at the first line you quoted: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things (are Created)You apparently agree that the “all things” refers to ALL THINGS that were created by the Father – not just “certain things after Jesus was raised”.
It is the same exact “ALL THINGS” that were created by the Father in the first line that were created THROUGH Jesus in the second line. You want the scripture to say that literally ALL things came from the Father, but only CERTAIN things came through Jesus. But once again, that is simply not what the scripture says.
So if the “ALL” in the first part refers to the whole of creation, then the “ALL” in the second part refers to the same thing. It must, according to the way Paul worded it.
peace,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2011,11:18) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 31 2011,13:21)
How is The Word’s glory seen in us? …the same way The Word’s glory was seen in Jesus. (John1:14 / Rom.8:18)
I'm sorry………………where exactly does it say it is the Word's glory in Romans 8:18?
mike
Hi Mike,And we beheld his(The Word's) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
Though you don’t believe that Hebrews 7:28 is saying: “”The Word” maketh the son”,
can you see that James 1:18 and 1Peter 1:23 both are saying God will beget us by “The Word”?
How is The Word’s glory seen in us? …the same way The Word’s glory was seen in Jesus. (John1:14 / Rom.8:18)Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with [The( Word's)] glory which shall be revealed in us.
God bless
Ed J
Hi Ed,Can you see the question I asked you? Could you actually DIRECTLY answer it this time?
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:45) How is The Word’s glory seen in us? …the same way The Word’s glory was seen in Jesus. (John1:14 / Rom.8:18) God has God's glory. The Word has the Word's glory. Mike has Mike's glory. King Solomon had King Solomon's glory. The sun has the sun's glory. The moon has the moon's glory. Etc, etc, etc.
Please address the original question. By doing so, you will see that Paul speaks of OUR OWN glory in Romans 8:18, and NOT the glory of the Word.
peace,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:46) Hi Mike, The Bible also says that “The Word” of God makes everything as well…
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by The Word of God. (Heb 11:3)
All things were made by him(The Word); (John 1:3)So using your logic (quoted in my post) it's pretty simple to see that “The Word” is God; right?
God bless
Ed J
I'm glad you pointed out Hebrews 11:3. The Greek word translated as “word” there is “rhema”, not “logos”. This one surely shoots Paladin's “logos” versus “rhema” theory right out of the water!
Now Ed, tell me if every single mention of “word” in the whole Bible refers to “the Word of God”. For example, if the scripture said, “And Isaiah proceeded to relay the word of God to the people”, would this use of “word” mean the same thing as “The Word of God”?
Point #2: All things did come FROM God and THROUGH His Word, so Heb 11:3 could be referring to the worlds being framed THROUGH Jesus.
Point #3: Do you see the little word “OF” in your scripture? Once again, the word OF God cannot BE the God it is OF.
Ed, point #3 is very simple, common logic. Even a kindergartener possesses this logic. If the bone is OF the dog, even 5 year olds know that means the bone cannot possibly BE the dog.
peace,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:46) Hi Mike, You keep forgetting I said that “The Word” of God is the “HolySpirit” of God.
“The Words” that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)
“The Word” which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14:24)God bless
Ed J
That just furthers MY point Ed. If the Word is OF God, then it is NOT God Himself. If the Holy Spirit if OF God, then it is NOT God Himself.Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2011,12:55) Ed, do you believe that the Lamb of God who was slain is God's Holy Spirit?
Hi Mike,Not entirely: At Jesus birth he was 1/2 HolySpirit, and after
his baptism he was filled with the HolySpirit. (See John 3:34)God bless
Ed J
Ed, how can the Holy Spirit be FILLED with the Holy Spirit?Do you understand that the Lamb of God is Jesus Christ or not?
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:48) Hi Mike, You have said in past posts that the title “King of kings”
applies to ever the context is referring to, now you
attempt to use it as an absolute to someone?Have you noticed how the translators of the “AKJV Bible”(74)
CAPITALIZED both of these TITLES in Rev.19:16, but not in Rev.17:14?
Rev.17:14 refers to Jesus, while Rev.19:16 refers instead to the “HolySpirit”.
So the beast and his earthly kings will wage war against Jesus AND the Holy Spirit, BOTH of whom are the Lord of lords? The beast will do battle against TWO different Lord of lords? Ed, Rev 17 shoots down your theory that the Word in chapter 19 is the Holy Spirit.
An honest man who is only after TRUTH would admit that he was understanding it wrong and accept the truth of the matter after it was shown to him.
“An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, will either cease to be mistaken, or cease to be honest.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,02:02) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:47) Hi Mike, The way I understand the Genitive form of a word in Greek,
it can be worded in English all of the following ways…God's Spirit
Spirit of God
The God SpiritGod bless
Ed J
The first two are correct. The last one is not even a possibility in the Greek language.Does knowing this fact change the way you understand things?
Or will your personal choice for what the scriptures teach prove to outweigh the facts of the matter?
mike
Hi Mike,The drill was to prove that the Greek has no word for “OF”,
by you agreeing at least one of the two alternatives, proves my point.
How Greek phrases are translated into English is a different matter of course.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,02:29) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:44)
Hi Mike,You believe that Rev.13:8 teaches that Jesus preexisted,
and that Jesus also had the “Book of Life” in his possession.
Why don't you believe that his being slain was also predetermined?
Whether or not Jesus' sacrifice was foreknown by God has no bearing on his pre-existence. For example, God apparently knows that four angels will someday hold back the winds until the 144,000 have the seal on their foreheads. (Rev 7:1-4) Is that proof that these four angels don't yet exist, just because they are foreordained for a specific purpose at some later date?Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:44)
Jesus death on the cross was the means of the question you keep asking.1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things (are Created), and we in him; and one
Lord Jesus Christ, by whom (his death burial and
resurrection) are all things, and we by him.
The word “whom” does not mean “one's death and burial”. The word “whom” is a pronoun referring to a person himself, and not any action that person carried out.It seems you want the scripture to say all things are through “the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ”. Unfortunately for you, the scripture simply doesn't say that. Instead, the scripture says that all things are through the PERSON Jesus Christ.
Ed, look at the first line you quoted: But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things (are Created)You apparently agree that the “all things” refers to ALL THINGS that were created by the Father – not just “certain things after Jesus was raised”.
It is the same exact “ALL THINGS” that were created by the Father in the first line that were created THROUGH Jesus in the second line. You want the scripture to say that literally ALL things came from the Father, but only CERTAIN things came through Jesus. But once again, that is simply not what the scripture says.
So if the “ALL” in the first part refers to the whole of creation, then the “ALL” in the second part refers to the same thing. It must, according to the way Paul worded it.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,I believe Jesus agreeing to be slain before the foundation of the world
offers you an alternative view of in what capacity Jesus helped in the Creation account;
One that does not impinge on either Isaiah 37:16 or Isaiah 44:24, where it states God created “ALONE.It is not necessary for me to attempt to convince you that my view is correct.
It’s only necessary to make sure you fully understand why I hold the view I do.
The main reason I can give is, that my view does not discount any other Scripture.
Your view of Jesus helping JEHOVAH with creation impinges on Isaiah 37:16 & 44:24.
My view is that Jesus’ crucifixion was the means of his participation in the matter. (John 8:14)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,02:40) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2011,11:18) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 31 2011,13:21)
How is The Word’s glory seen in us? …the same way The Word’s glory was seen in Jesus. (John1:14 / Rom.8:18)
I'm sorry………………where exactly does it say it is the Word's glory in Romans 8:18?mike
Hi Mike,And we beheld his(The Word's) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
Though you don’t believe that Hebrews 7:28 is saying: “”The Word” maketh the son”,
can you see that James 1:18 and 1Peter 1:23 both are saying God will beget us by “The Word”?
How is The Word’s glory seen in us? …the same way The Word’s glory was seen in Jesus. (John1:14 / Rom.8:18)Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with [The( Word's)] glory which shall be revealed in us.
God bless
Ed J
Hi Ed,Can you see the question I asked you? Could you actually DIRECTLY answer it this time?
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:45) How is The Word’s glory seen in us? …the same way The Word’s glory was seen in Jesus. (John1:14 / Rom.8:18) God has God's glory. The Word has the Word's glory. Mike has Mike's glory. King Solomon had King Solomon's glory. The sun has the sun's glory. The moon has the moon's glory. Etc, etc, etc.
Please address the original question. By doing so, you will see that Paul speaks of OUR OWN glory in Romans 8:18, and NOT the glory of the Word.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,The “Glory” is not what is at issue here, but “Who” The Word is.
Jesus said: “The Word’s” he speaks (in behalf of God) are Spirit. (John 6:63)
Paul said “The Word” of God is the Spirit of God. (Eph.6:17)
Both of these verses back what I have been telling you.Here is a Scripture that connects these ideas together…
The Lord gave “The Word”: great was the company of those that published it. (Psalms 68:11)
And since all Scripture is given by inspiration by the HolySpirit (2Tm.3:16), it seems pretty obvious to me.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,02:54) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:46) Hi Mike, The Bible also says that “The Word” of God makes everything as well…
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by The Word of God. (Heb 11:3)
All things were made by him(The Word); (John 1:3)So using your logic (quoted in my post) it's pretty simple to see that “The Word” is God; right?
God bless
Ed J
I'm glad you pointed out Hebrews 11:3. The Greek word translated as “word” there is “rhema”, not “logos”. This one surely shoots Paladin's “logos” versus “rhema” theory right out of the water!Now Ed, tell me if every single mention of “word” in the whole Bible refers to “the Word of God”. For example, if the scripture said, “And Isaiah proceeded to relay the word of God to the people”, would this use of “word” mean the same thing as “The Word of God”?
Point #2: All things did come FROM God and THROUGH His Word, so Heb 11:3 could be referring to the worlds being framed THROUGH Jesus.
Point #3: Do you see the little word “OF” in your scripture? Once again, the word OF God cannot BE the God it is OF.
Ed, point #3 is very simple, common logic. Even a kindergartener possesses this logic. If the bone is OF the dog, even 5 year olds know that means the bone cannot possibly BE the dog.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,1) Is the mind of Mike, Mike? …what were you thinking; Mike?
2) Is the body of Mike, Mike? …what were you doing; Mike?The only way you can say no to either of these first two questions is “ONLY” with added rudimentary logic.
Rudimentary logic based entirely on you not willing to see your view as incompatible with certain Scriptures.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,02:59) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:46) Hi Mike, You keep forgetting I said that “The Word” of God is the “HolySpirit” of God.
“The Words” that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)
“The Word” which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (John 14:24)God bless
Ed J
That just furthers MY point Ed. If the Word is OF God, then it is NOT God Himself. If the Holy Spirit if OF God, then it is NOT God Himself.
Hi Mike,Can I take this post to mean that you now are considering that “The Word” is the “HolySpirit”?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,03:09) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:48) Hi Mike, You have said in past posts that the title “King of kings”
applies to ever the context is referring to, now you
attempt to use it as an absolute to someone?Have you noticed how the translators of the “AKJV Bible”(74)
CAPITALIZED both of these TITLES in Rev.19:16, but not in Rev.17:14?
Rev.17:14 refers to Jesus, while Rev.19:16 refers instead to the “HolySpirit”.
So the beast and his earthly kings will wage war against Jesus AND the Holy Spirit, BOTH of whom are the Lord of lords? The beast will do battle against TWO different Lord of lords? Ed, Rev 17 shoots down your theory that the Word in chapter 19 is the Holy Spirit.
An honest man who is only after TRUTH would admit that he was understanding it wrong and accept the truth of the matter after it was shown to him.
“An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, will either cease to be mistaken, or cease to be honest.”
Hi Mike,Do you really think you’re telling me something that I myself have not also considered?
Have you not noticed that the kings of the Earth make war against “The Lamb” in Rev.17:14.
And “The HolySpirit”(called The Word) makes war against the kings of the Earth in Rev.19:11-21.Have you noticed Jesus stopped short of declaring the prophecy in Isaiah 60:1-2?
Isaiah 61:1-2 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings
unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and
the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,That is because the “HolySpirit” fulfills this part of the prophecy recorded in Rev.19”11-21…
and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion,
to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. (Isaiah 61:2-3)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,03:01) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,06:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2011,12:55) Ed, do you believe that the Lamb of God who was slain is God's Holy Spirit?
Hi Mike,Not entirely: At Jesus birth he was 1/2 HolySpirit, and after
his baptism he was filled with the HolySpirit. (See John 3:34)God bless
Ed J
Ed, (1)how can the Holy Spirit be FILLED with the Holy Spirit?(2)Do you understand that the Lamb of God is Jesus Christ or not?
Hi Mike,1) You asking this question proves that you do not understand what I have been telling you.
2) Yes.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 29 2011,03:01) Hi All, Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.The word translated as “universe” is really the Greek word “aeon”, which means the “ages”. But the word is definitely PLURAL, and therefore refers to MORE THAN ONE age. So at the very least, God has created MORE THAN ONE age THROUGH His Son, right?
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by “The Word” of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; . (Heb 1:1-3)
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I(YHVH=63) “will be”(63) to him a Father, and he(Jesus=74) shall be to me a [God Son=74]? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Heb 1:4-6)
In verse 2, God is referring to Jesus’ death on the cross, which was the means by which YHVH created heaven and Earth ALONE!
See how YHVH has inspired the (Shaool) Apostle Paul to mention this very FACT in verse 3?
YHVH has reconciled all to himself by Jesus, by his unselfish act of dying on the cross. (See 2Cor.5;19)See how Hebrews 1:3 matches to the wording given in 2Cor.5:19, which also matches to John 1:14
And we beheld his(The Word’s) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (John 1:14)
2Cor.5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing
their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us “The Word” of reconciliation.God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is LORD of heaven and earth,
dwelleth not in temples made with hands; (He instead dwells in his Children) (Acts 17:24)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:33) Hi Mike, The drill was to prove that the Greek has no word for “OF”,
by you agreeing at least one of the two alternatives, proves my point.
Sorry Eddy,No dice. The Greek genitive form, the English word “OF”, AND an English word followed by an apostraphe + s all signify “OF”.
Greek genitive form of “God” = “OF God”
English “OF God” = “OF God”
English “God's” = “OF God”
You have proved nothing but your own misconception. Better for you to just accept the truth of the matter that the Holy Spirit is not God Himself, but OF God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2011,14:38) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:33) Hi Mike, The drill was to prove that the Greek has no word for “OF”,
by you agreeing at least one of the two alternatives, proves my point.
Sorry Eddy,No dice. The Greek genitive form, the English word “OF”, AND an English word followed by an apostraphe + s all signify “OF”.
Greek genitive form of “God” = “OF God”
English “OF God” = “OF God”
English “God's” = “OF God”
You have proved nothing but your own misconception. Better for you to just accept the truth of the matter that the Holy Spirit is not God Himself, but OF God.
Hi Mike,This thread is to show “Who” The Word is, is it not?
I have and will continue to provide much evidence
to illustrate “The Word” is the “HolySpirit” of God.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,20:34) Your view of Jesus helping JEHOVAH with creation impinges on Isaiah 37:16 & 44:24.
My view is that Jesus’ crucifixion was the means of his participation in the matter. (John 8:14)
My view doesn't have Jesus “helping” the Father at all. My view has the Father creating everything ALONE, but doing that THROUGH Jesus.It is your view that mentions a “participation” of Jesus, which would impinge on Is 37 and 44.
But I don't take the “ALONE” the same way as you do anyway. I take it as if Bill Gates said, “I created Microsoft ALONE – ALL BY MYSELF.”
We know that is an accurate statement from one point of view. But we also know that Bill Gates had much help building Microsoft.
By the time God spoke those words through Isaiah, there was not one living flesh and blood being who hadn't been created by God THROUGH many other people. So God didn't LITERALLY create Isaiah himself “ALONE”. He did it THROUGH Isaiah's human parents, grandparents, etc, etc.
So there are at least two different ways you can understand the word “ALONE”. What I've told you is how I understand it. But in order to not impinge upon God's own words, I just stick to scriptures in this matter. And scripture allows for all things to have been created by God ALONE, but at the same time THROUGH Jesus.
Just as I ALONE am sending you this post, but I'm doing it THROUGH the internet.
Not that any of this changes the fact that all things came through the Word, God's Son, AND our Lord Jesus Christ, making a rock-solid case that all of them are the same being.
peace,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 06 2011,21:44) Hi Mike, This thread is to show “Who” The Word is, is it not?
I have and will continue to provide much evidence
to illustrate “The Word” is the “HolySpirit” of God.
That's fine. But in the meantime, have we cleared up this “OF God” issue? Will I ever again have to be sidetracked from the issue at hand by your comments about the Greek language not having the word “of”, when you know full well that they have another way of conveying the word “of”?I hope not. To me, that kind of thing is nothing but an intentional diversion tactic.
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