- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Nick,
First of all you did not disprove my contradiction that the biblical God is a logical fallacy.
Secondly I am amazed when an acorn becomes a tree but that certainly does not mean that it was “created” that way, the whole evolution creation debate is a topic on another thread and I don;t have time to explain evolution in the fullness it deserves firght now.
Lastly how can you say that God leaves no room for sitting on the fence when in fact there are plenty of reasons to believe in things like evolution, geologic time, a universe that has been mathmatically proven to be 13.6 Billion years old. If God truely wanted everyone to believe he'd come down from the heavens and hold a press confrence. Would God send Stephen Hawking to hell for not believing the bible word for word as you suggest?
Christians claim god is good and benevolent and then in the next breath turn around and say he'd send me to hell for simply not believing. This is ridiculous, he's either benevolent as I suspect if any God existed he would be or he's a tyrannical dictator on order that would make Hitler and Stalin both seem meek.Hi Tom,
Belief or disbelief is your choice and not my business.
God did hold a news conference 2000 years ago and the pages written are still fresh.
The age of the universe you claim only adds to the problem you have that sometime it had a beginning, established an almost infinite order and harmony that is more intricate than any watch-all by itself it seems!To Nick,
In my previous post I stated “First of all you did not disprove my contradiction that the biblical God is a logical fallacy.” Obviously I dud not proof read well enough. I meant to say that you have not disproved my contention (not contradiction) that a belief in the biblical version of God is a logical contradiction.
As for the age of the universe point I made I should have been clearer and said something like the big bang happened 13.6 billion years ago.
You wisely have pointed out that this big bang must have a cause, however you assume that cause is God.
The fact of the matter is there are many competing explanations for the Big Bang. One is that the universe is in a continuous cycle of expanding to the point where it collapses on itself again (this requires an understanding of certain possibilities in 4D space). As well there are plenty of other theories that don't involve some sort of “creator.”
Of course if I accepted that the universe was “created” and then I asked you where this “creator” came from. All you would say is that he is beyond my comprehension and that I should be intellectually satisfied with that. This approach is very intellectually poor.
The fact of the matter is that if science satisfies itself in the belief that of some sort of “creator” has created everything we can't yet explain then we stop seeking natural explanations for the phenomena we see in the universe. This approach would have stopped humans from learning things like the true cause of earthquakes (plate tectonics) or the real cause of thunder. I'm not denying the possibility of a creator but simply pointing out that is it the easy way out without testing the limits of human intelligence.
Hi Tom,
If I could completely prove God to myself or you then he would not exist. If He was completely within my human grasp then we would be perhaps equal, and I am grossly inferior to the being I know and fear.
I cannot even fully grasp the idea of a Sun that gives light and warmth and yet is terrifying to behold such that we cannot safely look at it. I do not take for granted that it's distance from me provides the ideal situation for our food to grow and life to be enjoyable for this little speck on a tiny planet. And that is only one sun among perhaps millions all in harmony and beauty in the sky.Do you not see this as at least an amazing fluke?
I don't. The being I know created all this and is greater than all His creation.
To Nick
I'm glad that you at least admit the existence of God cannot be proven, I quite agree.
As for the rest of your statement you seem to argue that the probability of our existence or life in general is so tiny as to have been impossible without creation.
As for this argument it isn't all it's cracked up to be for example take a look at a 13 card hand in hearts the probability of getting that exact hand is 1/52^13 these odds are incomprehensibly small however you got that hand (you must have chosen those cards yourself)! Thus merely arguing that the odds are infinitesimal is not proof of creation nor does it necessarily suggest it. The fact of the matter is our galaxy contains millions upon millions of stars and our universe contains millions upon millions of galaxies. Is it so improbable than that somewhere in this unfathomably large realm life managed to spring forth? As well science doesn’t yet know what exactly causes life and what conditions are necessary for its survival the fact of the matter is that life could be far more robust than we know and may occur far more often throughout the universe we just haven't discovered it.
Fine theories Tom.
Well I guess we will all find out the truth personally.
To have even the possiblity of life you must have assembled a being to support and sustain that life, with all it's elements and proteins perfectly organised already. Chance upon chance?.Quote (Guest @ May 24 2005,04:48) To Is 1:18 1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2. The Universe began to exist.
3. Can order arise from disorder?
4. Can life arise from non-life?
5. Can intelligence arise from non-intelligence?These are fun questions but they can be reversed on believers for example if you believe as question 5 suggests that intelligence can only arise from intelligence and that God is intelligent than where did he gain his intelligence?
Futher more if you believe as question 4 suggests life can only come from life and that God is alive than what other higher God created God? and than what God created that God etc…?
The Believers get around these arguements is by saying that god is infinate and incapable of being comprehended by the human mind. Well the same thing could be true about the universe, but fortunately science does what it can to logically explain our world. If we were to stop asking scientific questions like what began the spark of life, because everyone believed that God did it. Than we may never know what process really created life because we stopped looking. I'm not advocating athiesim but simply the scientific assumption that everything occured on it's own via natural causes, everyone is free to believe what they will.
Lastly one cannot prove a negative such as God Does not exist however one can prove that his existance(or at least the Christian Version of God) is a logical contradition.
If you believe all these points than you have contradicted yourself.
1. God is wholly Good.
2. God is all powerful.
3. Good works to destroy evil.
4. Evil exists in the world.The only way you can avoid contradition is by denying one of the tenets either explicitly or implicitly such as saying evil does not exist.
I personally am agnostic( I believe there are no atheists and no true believers but that's another arguement). I consider myself a good and morally decent human being and I think that If God exists he judges us not by our belief in him but soley based on our actions toward others. I really have no basis for this belief but it's simple how I think a truely benevolent all powerful God should behave. Furthermore if God rejects me(or any other decent good and decent person) from “paradise/heaven” simply for not believing in him, when he does not provide conclusive proof of his existance, than I wouldn't want to go to heaven anway because than God would be a huge jerk(not unlike how he is portrayed in the bible).
G'day Tom, hows things?
Im trying to stay away from message boards at the moment so wont be replying to this here. I do very much want to address your points though and will do this by email if you're interested. If you send me an email I will reply to you with my response.My email address: [email protected]
Be well.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
