Is the watchtower society wrong?

[NickHassan]

Hi texas,
Two scriptures?

You have not even showed one that says Jesus is an angel or an archangel or is called Michael.

Your claims would be laughed out of any court.

[Texas]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2009,21:39)

Hi texas, Two scriptures? You have not even showed one that says Jesus is an angel or an archangel or is called Michael. Your claims would be laughed out of any court.

Nick!
Seems to me, I already answered this doubtful attitude of yours, but, allow me to go at it one more time. Now, if you actually read these scriptures through, you will quickly learn that no court in this entire world would laugh at this scriptural information, unless, of course, you was not the one sitting in of judge of that court. In that case, you would have it laughed out of court; but no honest judge would ever dare to do that! Read these three sciptures and you will learn that Jesus was the angel to sit at JEHOVAH'S right hand. He was referred to as such!That is clear from these three scriptures? Pasalms 110:1,2- Matthew 22:44-46- Hebrews 1:13 So, I've not only showed you one, I've showed you three. Will that do you?

One other thing, you wondered where I got my strange teachings from. I got them from the same source that the Apostle Paul did, because in his day he was accused of having those same 'strange teachings.' {Acts 17:20} “For you are introducing some things that are strange to our ears.” Same old, same old, eh Nick? Texas!

[Texas]

Quote (david @ May 03 2009,03:41)

Quote As you will all see, my belief is, the Watchtower Society is quite wrong in setting forth their interpretation of Matthew 24:7,for I believe, that it is not I alone that contradicts their belief Maybe I'm reading what you're saying wrong, but I don't see much of a difference, if any. Perhaps, it would help if you quoted what they believe and then explained why you think it is wrong. What it seems like you are perhaps doing, is re-writing JW's beliefs and then saying it is your material, which you will sell in the book you are writing.

David!
A long time ago I gave up my idea of selling my Book! I have no intention of trying to sell it now either. What I've been doing on this Board and other Boards is putting the various Chapters of my Book, {that will never be} on this Board, in the hopes of helping those who have a listening spiritual ear. But, no! My Book, will never be published! It will never sell!That's alright though because were it to be published that would bring me in some income, and Jesus did say, “You received free, give free!” Should I make a business of teaching the Bible to others? No! I don't think so David, I don't think so! Texas!

[Texas]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 04 2009,07:25)

Hi texas, But you align yourself with them in false teaching when you say the Son of God is an angel.

Nick!
I say that because the Son of God was an Angel, prior to his coming to this earth; now I thought that I already showed you all of that! My! You're quite thick,aren't you?

Hebrews 1:13 Psalms 110:1,2 Matthew 22: 44-46 Texas!

[NickHassan]

Hi texas,
None of those verses say Jesus is an angel.
Do you have any more?

[NickHassan]

Hi texas,
Hebrews 1 contrasts Jesus with the angels.
He is less than them for a time.
Then later they worship him.
They are servants.

Finally the rhetorical question
“to which if the angels…”

none

If he was one of them how could any of these matters be true?

[Cindy]

Texas I too looked at those Scriptures you gave, IMO you are dead wrong. Just want to say this  
         You quoted Scriptures that has nothing to do with Jesus being an angel. Jesus came forth from the Father, the firstborn, and it is He that created the Angels.
Irene

[Texas]

Quote (Cindy @ May 09 2009,07:59)

Texas I too looked at those Scriptures you gave, IMO you are dead wrong. Just want to say this            You quoted Scriptures that has nothing to do with Jesus being an angel. Jesus came forth from the Father, the firstborn, and it is He that created the Angels. Irene

Irene!
Lets look at these scriptures that I set forth to prove my point: Psalms 110:1,2 says this: “The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet. The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”
Next on the list, Matthew 22:42 – 44 – “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is he? They said to him, Davids. He said to them: How is it that David by inspiration calls him lord, 'saying 'sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” If therefore David calls him lord, how is he his Son.”Now, I feel fairly certain that you have to believe that these two Chapters and verses are discussing the exact same thing; and I'm sure you know that these verses was talking about the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Now, with those two chapters and verses in mind, look at Hebrews 1:13 “But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet?” Now, Irene! Which one of the angels was that statement made about? It could not possibly be none other than the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was himself an angel when he resided with his Father from the very beginning in the invisible heavens.

Tell me! Is there something wrong with your vision? Or, are YOU just simply willfully blind? Texas!

[NickHassan]

Hi texas ,
That human logic is facile and flawed and not dependant on scriptural wisdom but the imaginations of men.

King Jesus, who is now at the right hand of God as seen by Stephen in Acts 7, will rule from Jerusalem and God in him will subdue the nations.[ps2]

[Cindy]

Texas I do not think that I am blind, a person like you always has to say something negative about the one that disagrees with you. As a Christians I find it unnecessary to do so. I can debate without calling people blind etc.
Jesus was and is God's Son, He derived from the Father. No other being has. Jesus or the Word was above the Angels. Only when He became a man, and emptied Himself of the glory of God, were the Angels above Him.
This is all I am going yo say to you, because I know now what kind of person you are and no matter what I would say, it would not make any difference.
Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (Texas @ May 08 2009,18:41)

Quote (Cindy @ May 09 2009,07:59) Texas I too looked at those Scriptures you gave, IMO you are dead wrong. Just want to say this            You quoted Scriptures that has nothing to do with Jesus being an angel. Jesus came forth from the Father, the firstborn, and it is He that created the Angels. Irene Irene! Lets look at these scriptures that I set forth to prove my point: Psalms 110:1,2 says this: “The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet. The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” Next on the list, Matthew 22:42 – 44 – “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is he? They said to him, Davids.  He said to them: How is it  that David by inspiration calls him lord, 'saying 'sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” If therefore David calls him lord, how is he his Son.”Now, I feel fairly certain that you have to believe that these two Chapters and verses are discussing the exact same thing; and I'm sure you know that these verses was talking about the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Now, with those two chapters and verses in mind, look at Hebrews 1:13 “But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet?” Now, Irene! Which one of the angels was that statement made about? It could not possibly be none other than the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was himself an angel when he resided with his Father from the very beginning in the invisible heavens. Tell me! Is there something wrong with your vision? Or, are YOU just simply willfully blind? Texas!

Hi Texas,
I think that you are answering the question in Hebrews with the answer “Jesus” or “the Son of GOD.” I think Irene and Nick are answering the question with the answer “None of the angels.”

Heb 1:13
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?
NASU

I believe that Heb 2:5 gives us the answer…none of the angels has He ever said, “sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Heb 2:5
5 For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking.
NASU

See the difference,
LU

[Texas]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 09 2009,16:17)

Quote (Texas @ May 08 2009,18:41) Quote (Cindy @ May 09 2009,07:59) Texas I too looked at those Scriptures you gave, IMO you are dead wrong. Just want to say this            You quoted Scriptures that has nothing to do with Jesus being an angel. Jesus came forth from the Father, the firstborn, and it is He that created the Angels. Irene Irene! Lets look at these scriptures that I set forth to prove my point: Psalms 110:1,2 says this: “The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet. The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” Next on the list, Matthew 22:42 – 44 – “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is he? They said to him, Davids.  He said to them: How is it  that David by inspiration calls him lord, 'saying 'sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” If therefore David calls him lord, how is he his Son.”Now, I feel fairly certain that you have to believe that these two Chapters and verses are discussing the exact same thing; and I'm sure you know that these verses was talking about the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Now, with those two chapters and verses in mind, look at Hebrews 1:13 “But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet?” Now, Irene! Which one of the angels was that statement made about? It could not possibly be none other than the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was himself an angel when he resided with his Father from the very beginning in the invisible heavens. Tell me! Is there something wrong with your vision? Or, are YOU just simply willfully blind? Texas! Hi Texas, I think that you are answering the question in Hebrews with the answer “Jesus” or “the Son of GOD.”  I think Irene and Nick are answering the question with the answer “None of the angels.” Heb 1:13 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? NASU I believe that Heb 2:5 gives us the answer…none of the angels has He ever said, “sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” Heb 2:5 5 For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. NASU See the difference, LU

Lightenup!

What was Jesus before he arrived on this earth? “So, now you Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory I had alongside you before the World was.” John 17:5 – “What therefore if you should behold the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?” John 6:62

Quite clearly he was a very powerful Spirit Angel, and since he was the very first of Jehovah's creations of spirit angels, then, in that case, he would have had to of been the main or principle angel that Jehovah had created. That puts Jesus in the seat of Michael the Archangel!

Methinks, that YOU wants to open your eyes wider when you study Jehovah's word, the Bible!

[Lightenup]

Texas,
You ask what was Jesus before he arrived on this earth. I believe He was the firstborn of all creation, the only offspring of GOD, born of GOD, not created. Angels were created through Him.
Thanks for asking,
LU

[Cindy]

What does “born” mean? It means brought into existence.
So how did God bring his son (Jesus) into existence?
How did the son bring all the angels into existence?
How did the Father and the son (let us make man) bring man into existence?
How was the universe brought into existence?
Was it not all done by creation?

Georg

[Lightenup]

Quote (Cindy @ May 09 2009,09:37)

What does “born” mean? It means brought into existence. So how did God bring his son (Jesus) into existence? How did the son bring all the angels into existence? How did the Father and the son (let us make man) bring man into existence? How was the universe brought into existence? Was it not all done by creation? Georg

Hi Georg,
When something/someone reproduces then something/someone of the same kind is born to them. When someone creates something/someone it is a different kind that is brought into existence.

See the difference Georg?
Good question,
Kathi

[NickHassan]

Hi texas,
You say
“Quite clearly he was a very powerful Spirit Angel, and since he was the very first of Jehovah's creations of spirit angels, then, in that case, he would have had to of been the main or principle angel that  Jehovah had created. That puts Jesus in the seat of Michael the Archangel! “

Where does it say Michael is the only prince?[daniel says he is one of them]

Where does it say Michael has a seat?

Of course it never says Jesus was any form of angel.

You seem to rely far too much on very shallow personal inference and not enough on what is written

[Cindy]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 10 2009,05:54)

Quote (Cindy @ May 09 2009,09:37) What does “born” mean? It means brought into existence. So how did God bring his son (Jesus) into existence? How did the son bring all the angels into existence? How did the Father and the son (let us make man) bring man into existence? How was the universe brought into existence? Was it not all done by creation? Georg Hi Georg, When something/someone reproduces then something/someone of the same kind is born to them.  When someone creates something/someone it is a different kind that is brought into existence. See the difference Georg? Good question, Kathi

Kathi

God does not reproduce, he creates from nothing.
When we humans reproduce, it may be a boy or girl, but it is still a human; the same is to be said about all animals, all reproduce after their kind.
In each case it is a new member of that species, but not different.
In any case, nothing could reproduce, if it had not been created first.

Georg

[Lightenup]

Georg,
I agree that GOD can create from nothing. I disagree that He did not reproduce. I believe He reproduced one time and brought forth an offspring after His own kind…God from GOD, the Holy One. All the rest to receive life came via creation and not reproduction. I believe the Son of GOD to be a true Son of GOD. A creation would not be a true Son of GOD like a Son that came from the very womb of GOD.

You say that GOD does not reproduce. Where are you told that? Father's don't create their sons, they come through the process of reproduction. You say that nothing could reproduce if it had not been created first. I say that nothing could reproduce if it had not been in existence first either as created being or an always existent being.
Kathi

[Cindy]

Kathi

I must say, this is the first time I have heard some one say, the Father has a womb.
How do you suppose he impregnated himself, and how then was Jesus born?
As I said before, I feel no responsibility toward any one to prove anything; Paul said, you prove all things, and hold on to what is good.
If you feel what you believe is truth, go for it.

Georg

[Texas]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 09 2009,16:17)

Quote (Texas @ May 08 2009,18:41) Quote (Cindy @ May 09 2009,07:59) Texas I too looked at those Scriptures you gave, IMO you are dead wrong. Just want to say this            You quoted Scriptures that has nothing to do with Jesus being an angel. Jesus came forth from the Father, the firstborn, and it is He that created the Angels. Irene Irene! Lets look at these scriptures that I set forth to prove my point: Psalms 110:1,2 says this: “The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet. The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying] “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.” Next on the list, Matthew 22:42 – 44 – “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is he? They said to him, Davids.  He said to them: How is it  that David by inspiration calls him lord, 'saying 'sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” If therefore David calls him lord, how is he his Son.”Now, I feel fairly certain that you have to believe that these two Chapters and verses are discussing the exact same thing; and I'm sure you know that these verses was talking about the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Now, with those two chapters and verses in mind, look at Hebrews 1:13 “But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet?” Now, Irene! Which one of the angels was that statement made about? It could not possibly be none other than the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was himself an angel when he resided with his Father from the very beginning in the invisible heavens. Tell me! Is there something wrong with your vision? Or, are YOU just simply willfully blind? Texas! Hi Texas, I think that you are answering the question in Hebrews with the answer “Jesus” or “the Son of GOD.”  I think Irene and Nick are answering the question with the answer “None of the angels.” Heb 1:13 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? NASU I believe that Heb 2:5 gives us the answer…none of the angels has He ever said, “sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” Heb 2:5 5 For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. NASU See the difference, LU

Lightenup!
You'd best sit down and read that scripture IN CONTEXT! Don't be like the Clergy of Christendon who partially quote scripture to prove their points. They know, as you should also that reading IN CONTEXT PROVES THEM TO BE WRONG:just as a reading of that entire scripture you used, would prove you wrong. Of course, I guess its always nice for you scripture twisters to toddle off thinking you are more knowledgable than others, when in actuality you don't know squat about the Bible. Texas! Ps! I just put a post on the Board, for the likes of you! Read it, and weep! Texas

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