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Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 14 2010,02:11) Fair enough t8. But on a thread I started about Nick's interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:19 you said that I made an antichrist statement: Quote KJ,
God was in Christ.
The alternative is that God wasn't in Christ.
And it doesn't say that God is Christ.The first line is right, the second one is antichrist, and the third is not written.
Read it again Roo.God was in Christ.
The alternative is that God wasn't in Christ.The first line is right, the second one is antichrist.
I simply said that to say that God wasn't in Christ, is an antichrist statement because you would then be denying that he was the Christ by reason of the safe assumption that God was working through and in him.
If you said that God wasn't actually in Christ Jesus doing the work, then you would be denying pretty much the whole purpose of the Christ because the Christ is the anointed one.
I am sure that if you read it again, you will see that I correctly say that to deny that God wasn't in Christ would be an antichrist statement.
In case you were not aware, there are a number of ways that the antichrist spirit shows itself. It is not exclusively denying that he came in the flesh. If you deny that Jesus is the Christ, then that is also antichrist. And it is commonly taught that to replace Jesus Christ with another is also anti-christ.
Antichrist is a Greek word transliterated into the English. It is made up of a preposition Anti and the noun Christos. First, the word “anti” means “against” and/or “instead of”, and Christos means anointed.
My argument is simple, if you say that Jesus is actually God, then that denies that God (who is the Father) was in him redeeming the world to himself. In that case, this affects two important things.
1) That the Father wasn't in Christ, rather God was Christ.
2) This has the further consequence of saying that God came in the flesh and died, which is different than believing that Jesus came in the flesh and died.As we know, God is not a man, and God cannot die.
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ (the anointed). Such a man is the antichrist– he denies the Father and the Son.”
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
T8…….And aren't you denying Jesus came into (existence) in the Flesh , you believe he was morphed into existence in the flesh right, and had already preexisted , so to you he did not (COME) IN THE FLESH BUT WAS SENT FROM HEAVEN AND MORPHED INTO THE FLESH. But John said He came (IN) FLESH and I believe he full well meant Jesus came into (existence) through the flesh. He Was Foreordained (BUT) was Manifested (brought into existence) (IN) Our time, So says Peter.
peace and love………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,15:30) T8…….And aren't you denying Jesus came into (existence) in the Flesh , you believe he was morphed into existence in the flesh right, and had already preexisted , so to you he did not (COME) IN THE FLESH BUT WAS SENT FROM HEAVEN AND MORPHED INTO THE FLESH. But John said He came (IN) FLESH and I believe he full well meant Jesus came into (existence) through the flesh. He Was Foreordained (BUT) was Manifested (brought into existence) (IN) Our time, So says Peter. peace and love………………..gene
What kind of none sense are you talking.
Through the son (the word/Jesus) were all things created, so, yes, he existed long before his birth as a human.
God “send” his son, did he not? how can you “send” some one that does not exist? that's ridiculous.
Why did Jesus have to come in the “flesh”? because he was the ransom for some one that was flesh, spirit beings can't die, remember?
No one can stop you believing what ever you want, but try not to sound to foolish.Georg
Georg………So show (ONE) clear scripture that say this “JESUS EXISTED AS A BEING LONG BEFORE HIS BERTH” and i will admit you are right, not some ambiguous scripture that can be taken different ways , but a clear specific scripture that say what you are saying. I have never found any that say that Georg. Don't you think i strange (NO) scripture comes right out and says that , does it seem strange no Apostle even explains this in any detail as odd. Surely such an important subject would have been very clearly present and dealt with by all the apostles right? But we find none only scripture that can be misconstrued by forcing the text to say it.
peace and love to you and Irene…………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2010,04:04) Georg………So show (ONE) clear scripture that say this “JESUS EXISTED AS A BEING LONG BEFORE HIS BERTH” and i will admit you are right, not some ambiguous scripture that can be taken different ways , but a clear specific scripture that say what you are saying. I have never found any that say that Georg. Don't you think i strange (NO) scripture comes right out and says that , does it seem strange no Apostle even explains this in any detail as odd. Surely such an important subject would have been very clearly present and dealt with by all the apostles right? But we find none only scripture that can be misconstrued by forcing the text to say it. peace and love to you and Irene…………………..gene
Here is the scripture you ask for.Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Would you agree that the LAMB is Jesus Christ?
From the foundation, from before creation. Jesus knew from before he created all, that he would have to die for us one day, and he did it anyway.Georg
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,15:30) T8…….And aren't you denying Jesus came into (existence) in the Flesh , you believe he was morphed into existence in the flesh right, and had already preexisted , so to you he did not (COME) IN THE FLESH BUT WAS SENT FROM HEAVEN AND MORPHED INTO THE FLESH. But John said He came (IN) FLESH and I believe he full well meant Jesus came into (existence) through the flesh. He Was Foreordained (BUT) was Manifested (brought into existence) (IN) Our time, So says Peter. peace and love………………..gene
Gene. You must be joking.If I come in a taxi to your house, it certainly doesn't negate that I existed before I got in the taxi. In fact it supports the opposite view, that you did exist.
I believe he existed with the nature of God and emptied himself and came in the nature of man.
You however believe that Jesus is the flesh (I think).
So as you can see, I plainly believe that Jesus came in the flesh, and you plainly believe that his beginning was in flesh.
Funny that you should pick a fight over that. It backfired big time didn't it?
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,06:53) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2010,04:04) Georg………So show (ONE) clear scripture that say this “JESUS EXISTED AS A BEING LONG BEFORE HIS BERTH” and i will admit you are right, not some ambiguous scripture that can be taken different ways , but a clear specific scripture that say what you are saying. I have never found any that say that Georg. Don't you think i strange (NO) scripture comes right out and says that , does it seem strange no Apostle even explains this in any detail as odd. Surely such an important subject would have been very clearly present and dealt with by all the apostles right? But we find none only scripture that can be misconstrued by forcing the text to say it. peace and love to you and Irene…………………..gene
Here is the scripture you ask for.Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Would you agree that the LAMB is Jesus Christ?
From the foundation, from before creation. Jesus knew from before he created all, that he would have to die for us one day, and he did it anyway.Georg
Hello GeneNo comment now were I gave you the scripture you thought did not exist?
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,06:53) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2010,04:04) Georg………So show (ONE) clear scripture that say this “JESUS EXISTED AS A BEING LONG BEFORE HIS BERTH” and i will admit you are right, not some ambiguous scripture that can be taken different ways , but a clear specific scripture that say what you are saying. I have never found any that say that Georg. Don't you think i strange (NO) scripture comes right out and says that , does it seem strange no Apostle even explains this in any detail as odd. Surely such an important subject would have been very clearly present and dealt with by all the apostles right? But we find none only scripture that can be misconstrued by forcing the text to say it. peace and love to you and Irene…………………..gene
Here is the scripture you ask for.Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Would you agree that the LAMB is Jesus Christ?
From the foundation, from before creation. Jesus knew from before he created all, that he would have to die for us one day, and he did it anyway.Georg
Georg………..You are forcing the text to mean Jesus Preexisted as a Being before the Foundations of the Earth , the context there is that Jesus' Fate was Foreordained before the foundation of the Earth, it was all in GOD the FATHERS PLAN, Just as Our parts were also in His Plan, no difference Georg. That Scripture does no say anything about Jesus Preexisting as a real Being of any kind before His Berth. Produce a (CLEAR) scripture that says AS SOME KIND OF (BEING) before his berth on earth. Where is it (CLEARLY) stated.Why can't you simply believe what Peter Said ” HE WAS FOREORDAINED (before the foundation of the earth) But was MANIFESTED (brought to life and presented ) in our time. Georg God had a plan all along in how He was going to deal with and perfect Mankind and he did it through the (MAN) Jesus a (MAN) exactly the same as you and me Having no preexistent advantages of any kind , this gives GOD the Glory of His work (IN) Christ Jesus, by taking an ordinary Man and perfecting Him as the (FIRST) from Mankind into what He had planned all along. Before the word or anyone in it was made.
Why would GOD do it any other way Georg, God work is about perfecting mankind not some preexisting Angel or demigod of some kind , this false teaching only serves to separate our likeness of Jesus and is against GOD'S Work in Man and Jesus' work as a (TRUE AND PURE HUMAN BEING). It is Antichrist as John said it was. IMO
peace and love to you and Irene…………………….gnee
T8……..Nothing had its beginning in the flesh not me or you or Jesus, our beginning was with GOD, the same as Jesus' was, But the “taxi” that brought us into (BEING) as a SOUL was our berth here on earth the same as Jesus, was. You can not produce One scripture that shows anyone maned Jesus before his Berth on earth, nor can you produce any evidence of a preexistent Jesus any where in scripture , not even to mention the thought of why would God even do it that way , You have not even touched on that yet.
Answer me this T8, does a Preexistent Being Learn OBEDIENCE as it say Jesus did. What would it prove if GOD took a preexistent being and Morphed Him as a Human Being and then try to pass Him off as ONE of US, that would be a Sham and out right Lie for GOD to do that, And if that Being said to me you must overcome even as I have , i would just laugh and say yea right. Your Jesus is a Morphed being, and not a (real) Human beings so no wounder you separated yourself from Him , How can you really say He is your brother when you can't even identify with him. Tell me T8 what makes Preexistences and the TRINITARIANS any different , You both destory our (EXACT) IDENTITY WITH JESUS. You claim Jesus had a preexisting divine Nature , but that also is false He obtained that Nature when He recieved it after His Baptism in the Jordan river. Again everything you Preexistences and Trinitarians say and preach (SEPARATES) JESUS FOR US. You are truly both Antichrists. IMO
peace and love…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2010,09:43) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 15 2010,06:53) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2010,04:04) Georg………So show (ONE) clear scripture that say this “JESUS EXISTED AS A BEING LONG BEFORE HIS BERTH” and i will admit you are right, not some ambiguous scripture that can be taken different ways , but a clear specific scripture that say what you are saying. I have never found any that say that Georg. Don't you think i strange (NO) scripture comes right out and says that , does it seem strange no Apostle even explains this in any detail as odd. Surely such an important subject would have been very clearly present and dealt with by all the apostles right? But we find none only scripture that can be misconstrued by forcing the text to say it. peace and love to you and Irene…………………..gene
Here is the scripture you ask for.Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Would you agree that the LAMB is Jesus Christ?
From the foundation, from before creation. Jesus knew from before he created all, that he would have to die for us one day, and he did it anyway.Georg
Georg………..You are forcing the text to mean Jesus Preexisted as a Being before the Foundations of the Earth , the context there is that Jesus' Fate was Foreordained before the foundation of the Earth, it was all in GOD the FATHERS PLAN, Just as Our parts were also in His Plan, no difference Georg. That Scripture does no say anything about Jesus Preexisting as a real Being of any kind before His Berth. Produce a (CLEAR) scripture that says AS SOME KIND OF (BEING) before his berth on earth. Where is it (CLEARLY) stated.Why can't you simply believe what Peter Said ” HE WAS FOREORDAINED (before the foundation of the earth) But was MANIFESTED (brought to life and presented ) in our time. Georg God had a plan all along in how He was going to deal with and perfect Mankind and he did it through the (MAN) Jesus a (MAN) exactly the same as you and me Having no preexistent advantages of any kind , this gives GOD the Glory of His work (IN) Christ Jesus, by taking an ordinary Man and perfecting Him as the (FIRST) from Mankind into what He had planned all along. Before the word or anyone in it was made.
Why would GOD do it any other way Georg, God work is about perfecting mankind not some preexisting Angel or demigod of some kind , this false teaching only serves to separate our likeness of Jesus and is against GOD'S Work in Man and Jesus' work as a (TRUE AND PURE HUMAN BEING). It is Antichrist as John said it was. IMO
peace and love to you and Irene…………………….gnee
Gene,It seems that you want to doubt all things that are written and will accept the truth only if it says it in YOUR way.
Georg showed another verse and now you talk about a foreordained plan. I'd like to see this plan in Scripture in order to study it, ok?
Mike has been showing dozens of Scripture showing Christ's pre-existence and why you want to negate them, is beyond me (and Georg).
Pro 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
Pro 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
and this continues on until this verse that culminates the idea of Christ before he existed thru Mary:
Pro 8:30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
The Professor
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,19:26) spirit beings can't die, remember?
Hi Georg,I almost always interpret scripture the same was as you and t8 seem to, and agree with what you've posted to Gene here.
But can you tell me which scriptures tell you that spirit creatures cannot die?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (t8 @ Aug. 22 2010,20:38) Gene. You must be joking. If I come in a taxi to your house, it certainly doesn't negate that I existed before I got in the taxi. In fact it supports the opposite view, that you did exist.
In fact t8, I've already showed him this definition for “come” in 1 John 4:2,erchomai
1) to come
1a) of persons
1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returningHe keeps saying if we could show him just one scripture that says Jesus pre-existed, he would believe. So I inserted the actual definitions of the Greek words in Phil 2 for him:
Who BEGINNING in the form of God……EMPTIED HIMSELF……and was BEGOTTEN in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.
These are the words, man. Why won't you believe Gene?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2010,02:13) Answer me this T8, does a Preexistent Being Learn OBEDIENCE as it say Jesus did.
Yes.When he emptied himself, it is logical to assume that he started life in the flesh (as we do) from a beginning.
In other words by emptying himself of his previous nature, and taking on flesh, he was born like us and because he didn't have his previous nature, then he was exactly like us. He started as a baby with the basic instructions of conscience, and started recording memories from that time on.
Now that he is back in the glory he had with the Father before the world begun, it could be understood that his previous standing is remembered, but with the added experience of being a man who learned obedience as a being in the weakness of flesh.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 23 2010,02:13) You can not produce One scripture that shows anyone maned Jesus before his Berth on earth, nor can you produce any evidence of a preexistent Jesus any where in scripture
First off, when Jesus was born here, he wasn't called “The Word of God” or “Wisdom”, or “The Messenger of the LORD” for obvious reasons. God had a plan for him that was kept secret from the kings and princes of the earth. Remember how first-born males were slaughtered in order to rid them of the chosen one because they didn't know his identity? So obviously Yeshua was a name given to him in the same way that we are given names by our parents.Secondly, there is ample evidence in scripture that points to Christ as being with the Father before the world began, so your comment is just you spouting off your opinion.
God created all things through him and for him, this and many other references are written pertaining to Jesus Christ.
As I speak this, I can almost see you wriggling in pain and discomfort, (like you see in those movies where holy water hurts those who are not holy).
I will say it again, just so you can scream more.
Jesus existed in the form of God, (ahh scream) , emptied himself, existed in the form of man, was obedient, died, rose up, and is seated at the right hand of the Father with the glory that he had before the world began, (arggh).
I can hear you screaming and writhing from here Gene.
T8……….So you believe this preexistent being completely wiped out all his past memory and had to learn all over again As a human being , But you say out of the other side of your mouth He remembered the Glory he had with the Father in his Past existence. Now what purpose does that serve in GOD'S Plan , Why not Just take an ordinary man and Perfect Him then? Would not that make more sense seeing GOD was dealing with Mankind, not the angelic Kind or any other Kind, and as you say God wiped out all His memory then what the Purpose involved in doing that. Again T8 just preexistence nonsense brother. IMO
peace and love…………………………gene
T8……….Laugh , but trust me i am not screaming or crying out , just laugh at you ignorance of scriptures. And how you preexistences contradict yourselves continually, You say Jesus was morphed into an Human being without any memory, then you say he remembered the glory he had in the past with the Father when he preexisted as some other kind of Being. Well tell me this then Why did Jesus cry our to God “WHY HAST THO FORSAKEN ME” SEEING HE HAVE WENT THOUGH MORPHED EXPERIENCE BEFORE? Why did he sweat As it were drops pf Blood about His death then seeing he had previously experienced death and rebirth before. Preexistence of Jesus is nothing more then and extension of the TRINITY effect. T8 what makes me laugh is that with all the scriptures that plainly say Jesus was to come from the Womens seed, and where He was to be a offshoot of King David, and was to come from His brethren like Moses was, not to mention Where God said He created everything (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF you fail to understand that Jesus did Not preexist His berth here on earth. So if i were you i would not put down the Trinitarians so much seeing you also in like manor teach false teaching of preexistences. Both Trinitarians and Preexistences are companions in corrupting the word of GOD. IMO
peace and love………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2010,06:28) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,19:26) spirit beings can't die, remember?
Hi Georg,I almost always interpret scripture the same was as you and t8 seem to, and agree with what you've posted to Gene here.
But can you tell me which scriptures tell you that spirit creatures cannot die?
peace and love,
mike
Mike! Georg has so little time, and does not come on here to often, so I will answer your question.. I believe what He meant was that Christ will never die again now, not that He never died as a Human Being. I know that is not what He believes that He never died. Immortality was His reward for dying for us… Also I believe that he Angels that went with Satan will one day die along with Satan…. .Peace IreneQuote (Baker @ Aug. 23 2010,12:36) Mike! Georg has so little time, and does not come on here to often, so I will answer your question.. I believe what He meant was that Christ will never die again now, not that He never died as a Human Being. I know that is not what He believes that He never died. Immortality was His reward for dying for us… Also I believe that he Angels that went with Satan will one day die along with Satan…. .Peace Irene
Hi Irene,I agree that Jesus did die, and so cannot die again for he was the firstborn of the dead to be raised to eternal life.
Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.I think maybe Georg refers to the fact that when one dies, their spirit returns to God who gave it, and therefore the spirit itself never dies, although the person did.
As far as Satan, I'm not sure if he was maybe given immortality a long time ago or something, because it is never said that he will die, just be tormented “forever and ever”.
Thanks for your response,
mikeQuote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,13:26) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,15:30) T8…….And aren't you denying Jesus came into (existence) in the Flesh , you believe he was morphed into existence in the flesh right, and had already preexisted , so to you he did not (COME) IN THE FLESH BUT WAS SENT FROM HEAVEN AND MORPHED INTO THE FLESH. But John said He came (IN) FLESH and I believe he full well meant Jesus came into (existence) through the flesh. He Was Foreordained (BUT) was Manifested (brought into existence) (IN) Our time, So says Peter. peace and love………………..gene
What kind of none sense are you talking.
Through the son (the word/Jesus) were all things created, so, yes, he existed long before his birth as a human.
God “send” his son, did he not? how can you “send” some one that does not exist? that's ridiculous.
Why did Jesus have to come in the “flesh”? because he was the ransom for some one that was flesh, spirit beings can't die, remember?
No one can stop you believing what ever you want, but try not to sound to foolish.Georg
Irene,
What the heck!
Woah…. hold your horses im sorry let me jump in here Gene… not to ruin your parade.With all respect, show me where in Gods holy scriptures does it say that Jesus existed AS A HUMAN before the virgin birth?
really?
really really really?
t8 do you agree with this?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 23 2010,06:51) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 23 2010,12:36) Mike! Georg has so little time, and does not come on here to often, so I will answer your question.. I believe what He meant was that Christ will never die again now, not that He never died as a Human Being. I know that is not what He believes that He never died. Immortality was His reward for dying for us… Also I believe that he Angels that went with Satan will one day die along with Satan…. .Peace Irene
Hi Irene,I agree that Jesus did die, and so cannot die again for he was the firstborn of the dead to be raised to eternal life.
Romans 6:9
For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.I think maybe Georg refers to the fact that when one dies, their spirit returns to God who gave it, and therefore the spirit itself never dies, although the person did.
As far as Satan, I'm not sure if he was maybe given immortality a long time ago or something, because it is never said that he will die, just be tormented “forever and ever”.
Thanks for your response,
mike
In revelations it also says they will suffer the Second Death.
Wouldnt that include Satan and his angels?
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