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Quote (942767 @ Sep. 08 2008,22:52) Hi WhatIsTrue: I believe that I am wrong in stating that Moses made a mistake in his teaching about divorce in the OT. I believe what is correct is that God allowed Moses teaching about divorce in the OT because of the hardness of the peoples heart. God also allowed men to have several wives in the OT, but by the same scripture that Jesus quoted this was not God's intent. He made one woman “Eve” for Adam, and the scripture states:
Quote Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunderBut this is in a Christian marriage where God has “joined the two together”.
So Yahweh let them be free with the women but people who picked up sticks on Saturday were to be killed? Nice.Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 09 2008,22:10) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 08 2008,23:04) No KJ: I am not admitting that at all. I am saying is that you are making statements and accusations without having all the facts. You are just looking at that scripture and making an assumption that Paul is referring to all women. It isn't so. He is speaking about married women. I have given you and example of women who speak in the church. I also have some experience in the church today where I know that women have been used by God as prophetesses and pastors.
So if a women chooses to get married, she must give up here position of pastor?Do pastors teach? Do they have authority in their church?
1Ti 2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.I'm sorry 94, but you are going against Paul's teaching. I cannot help the bible teaches opposing things, but Paul has said at least twice that women should be silent. In Timothy above, he says nothing about a married woman.
Hi KJ:A woman, married or not, can be a pastor if she is qualified, and God ordains her for the position. If she is married, she is supposed to wear a covering on her head to show she is submitted to the Lord through him and to show respect for him. It is the Word of God that we are striving to obey. In a marriage relationship we are one in the flesh, and if we are in unity in the Word of God we are also one in the spirit, submitted to God through through the Lord Jesus. We do not want two different understandings of the Word of God going out of the same house.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 09 2008,22:11) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 08 2008,22:52) Hi WhatIsTrue: I believe that I am wrong in stating that Moses made a mistake in his teaching about divorce in the OT. I believe what is correct is that God allowed Moses teaching about divorce in the OT because of the hardness of the peoples heart. God also allowed men to have several wives in the OT, but by the same scripture that Jesus quoted this was not God's intent. He made one woman “Eve” for Adam, and the scripture states:
Quote Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunderBut this is in a Christian marriage where God has “joined the two together”.
So Yahweh let them be free with the women but people who picked up sticks on Saturday were to be killed? Nice.
Hi KJ:I know that this is hard to understand, but God has shown me that the reason that he was stoned for that offence is that he was doing it in defiance.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2008,16:42) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2008,11:36) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 09 2008,04:32) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 08 2008,23:55) Yes, and Lot was righteous. We can see his righteousness as he offers his daughters to be raped.
Sorry, jumping on the band wagon here….……and then Lot committed incestuous sex with those same daughter's so that they could become preganant! The bible says that Lot was drunk and so therefore he didn't know what was going on (riiiiiiiight). I call big-time “bull” on that one! I have been falling-down drunk before and would know if someone “raped” me!!
Those who hold that God is just and the bible is true must see problems with what we are bringing here? Can it all really be explained away?
Mandy
That Lot had sex with his daughters is apparently true, but the way that these scriptures describe that it happened is very difficult to understand.
Indeed. Very difficult to understand. The girls wanted to “carry on the family name” and so they got their Dad wasted and ……. in the middle of the night!!And Lot was “unaware” – hmmmm – sure he was!
Bro 94, there are so many things that are hard to understand that seem so blatantly wrong in the OT. I admire your patience in praying about what you don't understand and waiting for answers. But truely, to some of these problems there seems no righteous answer.
Lot had sex with his daughter's way after the law was given that such relations were evil/sin. Was being drunk out of his noggen enough of an excuse that God would forgive him?
Mandy
I will just have to say “Father I don't understand how this could have happened this way”. Is there and explanation?That is all that I can do with this one.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2008,20:27) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 09 2008,22:10) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 08 2008,23:04) No KJ: I am not admitting that at all. I am saying is that you are making statements and accusations without having all the facts. You are just looking at that scripture and making an assumption that Paul is referring to all women. It isn't so. He is speaking about married women. I have given you and example of women who speak in the church. I also have some experience in the church today where I know that women have been used by God as prophetesses and pastors.
So if a women chooses to get married, she must give up here position of pastor?Do pastors teach? Do they have authority in their church?
1Ti 2:11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.I'm sorry 94, but you are going against Paul's teaching. I cannot help the bible teaches opposing things, but Paul has said at least twice that women should be silent. In Timothy above, he says nothing about a married woman.
Hi KJ:A woman, married or not, can be a pastor if she is qualified, and God ordains her for the position. If she is married, she is supposed to wear a covering on her head to show she is submitted to the Lord through him and to show respect for him. It is the Word of God that we are striving to obey. In a marriage relationship we are one in the flesh, and if we are in unity in the Word of God we are also one in the spirit, submitted to God through through the Lord Jesus. We do not want two different understandings of the Word of God going out of the same house.
How can a woman be a pastor if Paul forbids a woman to speak? Will she teach and preach with telepathy and/or sign language?Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2008,20:31) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 09 2008,22:11) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 08 2008,22:52) Hi WhatIsTrue: I believe that I am wrong in stating that Moses made a mistake in his teaching about divorce in the OT. I believe what is correct is that God allowed Moses teaching about divorce in the OT because of the hardness of the peoples heart. God also allowed men to have several wives in the OT, but by the same scripture that Jesus quoted this was not God's intent. He made one woman “Eve” for Adam, and the scripture states:
Quote Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunderBut this is in a Christian marriage where God has “joined the two together”.
So Yahweh let them be free with the women but people who picked up sticks on Saturday were to be killed? Nice.
Hi KJ:I know that this is hard to understand, but God has shown me that the reason that he was stoned for that offence is that he was doing it in defiance.
No God has not shown you. You found that from an apologetics site. I know because I've seen that same excuse numerous times.Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 10 2008,15:26) How can a woman be a pastor if Paul forbids a woman to speak? Will she teach and preach with telepathy and/or sign language?
Hi Kejohn,She would have to preach with telepathy becasue she is “unclean” over 25% of her life. Anybody that touched her, or the chair that she sat on, or the bed that she laid on would be unclean as well.
Nobody would want a hug from an unclean preacher.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 10 2008,07:07) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 10 2008,15:26) How can a woman be a pastor if Paul forbids a woman to speak? Will she teach and preach with telepathy and/or sign language?
Hi Kejohn,She would have to preach with telepathy becasue she is “unclean” over 25% of her life. Anybody that touched her, or the chair that she sat on, or the bed that she laid on would be unclean as well.
Nobody would want a hug from an unclean preacher.Tim
Not really, its actually 50%. She is unclean for all of the days of her menstrual cycle and for 7 days after as well (Lev 15:28).Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2008,10:52) Hi WhatIsTrue: I believe that I am wrong in stating that Moses made a mistake in his teaching about divorce in the OT. I believe what is correct is that God allowed Moses teaching about divorce in the OT because of the hardness of the peoples heart. God also allowed men to have several wives in the OT, but by the same scripture that Jesus quoted this was not God's intent. He made one woman “Eve” for Adam, and the scripture states:
Quote Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunderBut this is in a Christian marriage where God has “joined the two together”.
Thanks for trying to answer my questions.If I am not mistaken, you are still waiting on God for the answer to the slavery question. I hope that you get your answer.
Hi KJ:
I have answered your questions, and so I have nothing more to say on the issues of women being pastors and about the man that was stoned to death on the Sabbath. As I said to you before, when I have a question, I go to God in prayer. You seem to already have the answer so why bother to discuss this with you. It seems that you have picked up a disciple. Maybe you should start your own church.
For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did [it] for my burial.
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.
Mat 26:12Act 16:14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
If a woman is emotionally in slaved to Marriage oath, she is to busy to preach the higher Laws
1Cr 7:34 There is difference [also] between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please [her] husband.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.In slaving woman shall be an advantage for time, even to combat the adversary's prophecy and avoid wise judgment being preached.
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.
PROVERBS 31….IS A MYSTERY, Salomon's ideas,
A business WOMAN, wife of a husband, mother of children, Maids, yet she sows garments, and ships her merchandise?
COMPARED this TO PAUL'S IDEAS of a woman's worth?1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
1Cr 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Cr 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Cr 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Cr 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Cr 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Cr 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on [her] head because of the angels.
1Cr 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Cr 11:12 For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
1Cr 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.
1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.surly Hair means something different than HAIR ON THE HEAD?
when I was young this woman wanted to have my hair cut off short, she mumble all her mubo jumbo at my mother, and with advantage she tormented my life with all sorts of bible Ideas that she took as literal.
she was going to be ordained as a minister in the Anglican churchTo all who had a question about slavery in the OT:
God has said that his children whom He delivered out of Egypt would not be slaves again. They are His servants. This is literal and is also symbolic of those in the NT who have been delivered from slavery to sin through the Lord Jesus.
Quote Lev 25:39 ¶ And if thy brother [that dwelleth] by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant:
Lev 25:40 [But] as an hired servant, [and] as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, [and] shall serve thee unto the year of jubile:
Lev 25:41 And [then] shall he depart from thee, [both] he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.
Lev 25:42 For they [are] my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.
Lev 25:43 Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy GodQuote Jhn 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.God allowed forced labor or slavery as judgment against His enemies and the enemies of His people. For some of God's enemies, those in the land of Caanan that God was giving to His children the judgement was anihilation. In the NT the gospel is to be preached to every creature, and judgment against God's enemies and the enemies of His people will be with-held until the end-times. Present day Israel abides by International Law which forbids slavery.
Quote Deu 20:10 ¶ When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
Deu 20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, [that] all the people [that is] found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
Deu 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
Deu 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
Deu 20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Deu 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off from thee, which [are] not of the cities of these nations.
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deu 20:18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.Also, If the people of the Nation of Israel needed additional labor to work their lands, God allowed them to buy the children of the heathen nations that lived around them or from the gentiles living among them in their country. This was a voluntary thing on the part of those who sold their children. They didn't have to sell them if they did not want.
Quote Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.In my study of this subject I found the following websites helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religio….1.shtml
I hope that this helps.
God Bless
Hi 94,
Thank you for the time that you put in to studying this issue.
I am afraid that it doesn't help me to feel any better about God condoning slavery though.
So God said that the Hebrews could basically make slaves out of anybody else on earth except
for other Hebrews.That just sounds like something that the Hebrews would say, not God.
I have to admit, I am having a lot of problems with the Old Testament.
I simply can not turn off my own God given values and reason accept something like slavery
being condoned by God, and then cry out “God is good”. I think that God is too good to have permitted slavery.Tim
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