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Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2008,21:28) Hi KJ: Did God deliver the muslims out of Egypt and part the Red Sea for them and did He give them the Ten Commandments or did He do all of this for the Nation of Israel?
No, but archaeology shows that this was not done for anyone else — including the Israelites — either. So mythology does not prove anything.
Quote Muslims have not been sent by God. Proof?
Quote They believe that Jesus is the Messiah but they do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So? What proof outside of the NT do you have that refutes their beliefs?
Quote Now they also believe that they are serving the same God that the Jews and the Christians are serving. My God says that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. They say that God does not have any Son or sons. And so, they can't be serving the same God. According to most Jews, you are serving a different God as well. What is your answer to them?
Quote And no, I know without a doubt that I am not wrong because the Spirit of God witnesses within me to the truth. As does the average Jew, Muslim, Hindu, B'hai, etc. What proof can you offer that your faith is any more valid than theirs?
Quote Also, I have had numerous experiences since by conversion experience that testify to the truth. God also answers my prayers. See above. I have read from many Muslims who also claim Allah has answered their prayers. Who should I believe?
Quote Muslims are trying to be saved through “good works”. My salvation is a gift from God not something I can earn through good works. I obey Him out of my love for him. I am sorry that you have been deceived KJ.
What if you are truly deceived and I have been enlightened? What proof can you offer to show me where this is not the case?
Quote My hope and prayer is that you will repent and come to God on His terms.
What if his terms do not match what you have come to know? what if the Hindus have it right, will you change your beliefs to match theirs? Because you have ZERO evidence that your beliefs about God are any more valid than any one else's.Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 02 2008,15:44) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2008,21:28) Hi KJ: Did God deliver the muslims out of Egypt and part the Red Sea for them and did He give them the Ten Commandments or did He do all of this for the Nation of Israel?
No, but archaeology shows that this was not done for anyone else — including the Israelites — either. So mythology does not prove anything.
Quote Muslims have not been sent by God. Proof?
Quote They believe that Jesus is the Messiah but they do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So? What proof outside of the NT do you have that refutes their beliefs?
Quote Now they also believe that they are serving the same God that the Jews and the Christians are serving. My God says that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. They say that God does not have any Son or sons. And so, they can't be serving the same God. According to most Jews, you are serving a different God as well. What is your answer to them?
Quote And no, I know without a doubt that I am not wrong because the Spirit of God witnesses within me to the truth. As does the average Jew, Muslim, Hindu, B'hai, etc. What proof can you offer that your faith is any more valid than theirs?
Quote Also, I have had numerous experiences since by conversion experience that testify to the truth. God also answers my prayers. See above. I have read from many Muslims who also claim Allah has answered their prayers. Who should I believe?
Quote Muslims are trying to be saved through “good works”. My salvation is a gift from God not something I can earn through good works. I obey Him out of my love for him. I am sorry that you have been deceived KJ.
What if you are truly deceived and I have been enlightened? What proof can you offer to show me where this is not the case?
Quote My hope and prayer is that you will repent and come to God on His terms.
What if his terms do not match what you have come to know? what if the Hindus have it right, will you change your beliefs to match theirs? Because you have ZERO evidence that your beliefs about God are any more valid than any one else's.
The prophecies of the OT and the NT that have been fulfilled are proof that the scriptures are from God.The proof that I have is the Spirit of God dwelling within me as well as my personal relationship with God.
There are many Jews who have believed in this latter day and have been saved, and many more will know the truth.
And if you don't believe now, I am certain that you will get your proof one way or the other.
Hi 90210
Quote The prophecies of the OT and the NT that have been fulfilled are proof that the scriptures are from God.
Give me one single biblical prophecy that is so precise in its prediction that it cannot possibly have been fulfilled as a ‘self-fulfilling’ prophecy. Every case I have read has been of 20/20 hindsight based on text written about another subject altogether. Paul and the gospel writers saw to the self-fulfillment part. You mock the valuable word ‘proof’.
There will be a solar eclipse on July 23 2047 at 10:19am. It will cover 23.4% of the surface of the sun. Let’s see how the biblical prophecy stacks up against that real prophecy, shall we?Quote The proof that I have is the Spirit of God dwelling within me as well as my personal relationship with God.
That could just be evidence that your brain can be deceived. That is what all the other evidence says.Quote There are many Jews who have believed in this latter day and have been saved, and many more will know the truth.
You are using ‘many more will know the truth’ as evidence? You mock the English language in the usual arrogant christian way.Quote And if you don't believe now, I am certain that you will get your proof one way or the other.
You cannot honestly be certain of that. You are bluffing again.You may not count my opinion highly but at this point kejonn is wiping the floor with your responses. Is that all christianity has to offer in defense?
Is slavery wrong?
Stuart
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 01 2008,22:57) The prophecies of the OT and the NT that have been fulfilled are proof that the scriptures are from God. I used to read a fiction series called the “Wheel of Time”. The main character fulfilled prophecies too. How is Jesus different? Can his fulfillment of certain prophecies be verified outside of the NT? If not, we are left with just what writers said about him, and often the prophecies he supposedly fulfilled are not prophecies at all, and many others are taken out of context.
Quote The proof that I have is the Spirit of God dwelling within me as well as my personal relationship with God. That is not proof, that is testimony. I can say I love someone all day long, but can that actually be proved? Not definitively. So your inner spirit is no more proof than the emotional reactions of any other faith adherent.
Quote There are many Jews who have believed in this latter day and have been saved, and many more will know the truth. And just as many if not more disregard Jesus. Why even mention this?
Quote And if you don't believe now, I am certain that you will get your proof one way or the other.
What if you end up being the one who gets proof to refute your claims? Face it, that is just as likely.Quote (942767 @ Aug. 30 2008,04:24) Yes, capturing people and selling them to others forcing them to be slaves or any kind of slavery that is done by force is wrong.
Then how do you interpret these verses?Leviticus 25:44-46:
“And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.”Note that there is an exception made for the children of Israel, so it would appear that God was OK with slavery for some but not for others.
So, it appears that the main argument from believers is that slavery was allowed for a time by God due to the “hardness of men's hearts”. If that's true, then that begs the following question:
How much of “God's law” was inspired by man? And, how do you know?
Afterall, if God was willing to bend on this, without explicitly saying so, then surely, there must be other areas that God allowed man to write his own laws.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 03 2008,08:28) So, it appears that the main argument from believers is that slavery was allowed for a time by God due to the “hardness of men's hearts”. If that's true, then that begs the following question: How much of “God's law” was inspired by man? And, how do you know?
Afterall, if God was willing to bend on this, without explicitly saying so, then surely, there must be other areas that God allowed man to write his own laws.
Hi WhatisTrue:Quote 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: However, there are many translation errors and so it is necessary to seek understanding from God when the scriptures seem to indicated that God may not be righteous. I can assure you that He is a righteous and Holy God.
And ths scripture states that all scripture is “given by the inspiration of God” not “inspirired by God”. I believe that there is a difference. In the book of Job, Job spoke many things without understanding, but it was he speaking not God, but we learn from his mistakes and we learn from his patience, for example.
Also, Jesus corrected a mistake that Moses made when he said:
Quote Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
We learn from the OT and covenant, but we who are born again Christians are not under the Law but under grace. We do not have slaves now that I know of nor do we control anyone. However, there is in the NT the book of Philemon in which Paul is retrurning Onesimus, a runaway slave that had converted to Christianity, to Philemon.
You say:
Afterall, if God was willing to bend on this, without explicitly saying so, then surely, there must be other areas that God allowed man to write his own laws.
The only thing that I can say to this that if you have a question about something else in the scriptures bring it up and we'll discuss it.
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 03 2008,21:20) Also, Jesus corrected a mistake that Moses made when he said:
So I guess we can assume you don't support the idea that the bible is infallible…Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 02 2008,13:20) So, if a Muslim kills you and your family for being infidels, is that any different? What makes you think Allah is not Yahweh? Perhaps the last prophet was Mohammed and you should join Islam.
Maybe you are the prophet, for surely you are preaching as if you have the truth. Are you any different to a false prophet or false teacher KJ? After all you are obviously trying to convince people of your message, just as any teacher and prophet does, whether they are false or not.Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 04 2008,01:48) Who ever said the bible was infallible? The Pope? Is it written in scripture?
Nick, t8, many others on here
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 04 2008,04:23) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 02 2008,13:20) So, if a Muslim kills you and your family for being infidels, is that any different? What makes you think Allah is not Yahweh? Perhaps the last prophet was Mohammed and you should join Islam.
Maybe you are the prophet, for surely you are preaching as if you have the truth. Are you any different to a false prophet or false teacher KJ? After all you are obviously trying to convince people of your message, just as any teacher and prophet does, whether they are false or not.
What truth do I preach? I have nothing but opinion based on observation. I am merely sharing my opinion that Christianity is no more or less valid than any religion. All of them are based on conjecture and speculation about a deity that obviously chooses to not be known. If s/he had, there would not be so many different views.Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 04 2008,23:48) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 04 2008,01:48) Who ever said the bible was infallible? The Pope? Is it written in scripture?
Nick, t8, many others on here
I meant – originally.
Hey Kevin,
Thanks for posting here at heavennet. You definitely give a perspective that is needed here. Christians should be ready to give an answer for what they believe. Oddly enough, I really struggle with that lately. I feel like I should know exactly what I believe by now!! But I don't. I'm still piecing things together. Taking from one and a little from another, then going back to the bible and prayer. I guess I'm slow. I'm definitely not as scholarly as most here. Ah well, I guess chips and dip are needed at the party too. Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 04 2008,14:39) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 04 2008,23:48) Quote (Not3in1 @ Sep. 04 2008,01:48) Who ever said the bible was infallible? The Pope? Is it written in scripture?
Nick, t8, many others on here
I meant – originally. Hmmm, it wasn't the Pope. In fact, the Pope himself was (is) supposed to be infallible, not the bible. Strange, huh? I don't think you will find many Catholics who say the bible is infallible.
I have seen opinions that state that the idea that the bible is infallible came out of the Protestant movement. Since the Pope was supposed to be infallible, the Protestants struck back with the bible being infallible instead.
Quote Hey Kevin,
Thanks for posting here at heavennet. You definitely give a perspective that is needed here. Christians should be ready to give an answer for what they believe. Oddly enough, I really struggle with that lately. I feel like I should know exactly what I believe by now!! But I don't. I'm still piecing things together. Taking from one and a little from another, then going back to the bible and prayer. I guess I'm slow. I'm definitely not as scholarly as most here. Ah well, I guess chips and dip are needed at the party too. Love,
Mandy
I'm glad someone sees a benefit to my presence. Most others would like to see me stoned or burned I fear. Christianity, for the most part, is an exclusive religion. It does not teach tolerance. I think that is why I continue to post here, because I want to try to change that mindset in at least a few individuals if I can. To borrow a concept I saw earlier today, if a Christian can say “Christianity works for me” and a Muslim can say “Islam works for me” and the two then go out and have a friendly lunch together where they try to solve the real issues of our world, then we'd be better for it.
No religion is perfect because no human is perfect. Christianity is no more the true religion than Hinduism is. Both have very little evidence to back up their claims. All they have is belief. When Christians (and Muslims) stop telling people they will burn in hell for not doing X, Y, and Z, and will stop trying to force their morals on others, then the world will be a much better place.
94xxxx wrote:
Quote 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: AND
Quote Also, Jesus corrected a mistake that Moses made … . These two statements are contradictory, in my opinion. Can I read what Moses wrote about divorce and consider it inspired by God or not? Or more appropriate to the topic, can I read Leviticus 25:44-46 and consider it inspired by God or not?
Not only are you right about that contradiction but Jesus allegedly said he came to fulfill the laws, not to nullify them. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” represents a major continuity error in the bible fantasy story. Jesus is denying a direct command of god by making up a commutation of god's glorious death sentence. There is a paradox for a trinitarian!
Stuart
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 05 2008,10:16) 94xxxx wrote: Quote 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: AND
Quote Also, Jesus corrected a mistake that Moses made … . These two statements are contradictory, in my opinion. Can I read what Moses wrote about divorce and consider it inspired by God or not? Or more appropriate to the topic, can I read Leviticus 25:44-46 and consider it inspired by God or not?
No, I said there is a difference by the words “given by the inspiration of God” and “inspired by God”. Jesus corrected what Moses taught relative to divorce, and that is what we as Christians follow.This just shows that someone who is a minister of God can make a mistake, and Moses made a mistake.
The Apostle Paul had to correct the Apostle Peter also.
If you read what Moses said about divorce before Jesus corrected his mistake, then you could believe that it was inspired by God, but since Jesus corrected the mistake, you know that he made a mistake and you know why Moses made the mistake because Jesus told you that he allowed divorce because of the hardness of the people's heart.
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 02 2008,19:37) Hi 90210 Quote The prophecies of the OT and the NT that have been fulfilled are proof that the scriptures are from God.
Give me one single biblical prophecy that is so precise in its prediction that it cannot possibly have been fulfilled as a ‘self-fulfilling’ prophecy. Every case I have read has been of 20/20 hindsight based on text written about another subject altogether. Paul and the gospel writers saw to the self-fulfillment part. You mock the valuable word ‘proof’.
There will be a solar eclipse on July 23 2047 at 10:19am. It will cover 23.4% of the surface of the sun. Let’s see how the biblical prophecy stacks up against that real prophecy, shall we?Quote The proof that I have is the Spirit of God dwelling within me as well as my personal relationship with God.
That could just be evidence that your brain can be deceived. That is what all the other evidence says.Quote There are many Jews who have believed in this latter day and have been saved, and many more will know the truth.
You are using ‘many more will know the truth’ as evidence? You mock the English language in the usual arrogant christian way.Quote And if you don't believe now, I am certain that you will get your proof one way or the other.
You cannot honestly be certain of that. You are bluffing again.You may not count my opinion highly but at this point kejonn is wiping the floor with your responses. Is that all christianity has to offer in defense?
Is slavery wrong?
Stuart
Hi Stu:Do the research on the following prophecy:
Quote Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.And no, I am not deceived, but you are. I am not walking around in darkness. I know the truth of what is now and what lies ahead, and you will find out whether or not I was bluffing one way or the other.
I have answered KJ regarding slavery and his other questions as well, and so, read what I have stated and you will have my response.
Your opinion matters to me on things that you know about, things that pertain to science, but how can you, KJ or anyone who does not have a personal relationship with God teach me anything about HIM?
I am not bluffing nor am I threatening, but I know that there is a day of judgment coming. You can count on it.
Hi KJ:
You say:
Quote Quote
And if you don't believe now, I am certain that you will get your proof one way or the other.What if you end up being the one who gets proof to refute your claims? Face it, that is just as likely.
There is no possibility that I can be wrong about this, but I know that you are and so where does this leave you?
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 05 2008,19:50) Hi KJ: You say:
Quote Quote
And if you don't believe now, I am certain that you will get your proof one way or the other.What if you end up being the one who gets proof to refute your claims? Face it, that is just as likely.
There is no possibility that I can be wrong about this, but I know that you are and so where does this leave you?
It leaves me where I am. You have ZERO proof you are correct and I am wrong. All you have is belief, nothing more. You can say you are right until you are blue in the face, but without verifiable evidence to support your beliefs you have nothing to offer beyond mere conjecture.
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