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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 12 2014,17:03) Hi David,
You seem to be upset with scripture on this.
I feel possibly many don't even know the scriptures on this.T8 for example believes forced slavery is wrong.
Maybe he just means wrong today. Maybe he means it was right back then but wrong today.
David I would argue that slavery is the default. We are slaves to something. God, sin, the Devil, money, whatever.
However, not all slavery is bad as you say.
I agree that torture is not good, but death is not necessarily bad.
If there exists a civilisation or culture that puts babies onto a burning hot idol as a sacrifice, then death that culture could be a good thing because it stops further instances of that practice. If a vine has a bad branch and no fruit grows there, then might be a good thing to prune that branch so that the energy coming from the roots can serve the good branches. Just generalizing here.
If a wicked branch grow up, what is more evil, breaking that branch off so that no more souls will grow there, or leaving it so that souls will be deprived. Scripture says that God is a gardener and that the righteous will inherit the Earth. If there is evil, then it is never going to be nice when dealing with it or eradicating it. Think of it like cancer. There is no nice way to destroy cancer.
Also, we judge God based on our misunderstandings. I bet when you see the big picture you will know that God is indeed good.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2014,13:54) David I would argue that slavery is the default. We are slaves to something. God, sin, the Devil, money, whatever. However, not all slavery is bad as you say.
I agree that torture is not good, but death is not necessarily bad.
If there exists a civilisation or culture that puts babies onto a burning hot idol as a sacrifice, then death that culture could be a good thing because it stops further instances of that practice. If a vine has a bad branch and no fruit grows there, then might be a good thing to prune that branch so that the energy coming from the roots can serve the good branches. Just generalizing here.
If a wicked branch grow up, what is more evil, breaking that branch off so that no more souls will grow there, or leaving it so that souls will be deprived. Scripture says that God is a gardener and that the righteous will inherit the Earth. If there is evil, then it is never going to be nice when dealing with it or eradicating it. Think of it like cancer. There is no nice way to destroy cancer.
Also, we judge God based on our misunderstandings. I bet when you see the big picture you will know that God is indeed good.
T8, I definitely didn't say all slavery is bad.I don't believe you read many of my posts.
I also think it's silly to confuse slavery to whatever (money, etc) with actual “I'm going to beat you with a stick” slavery.
Ya. Torture isn't good. If I beat you with a stick is that torture?
As for misunderstanding, that is why I ask and discuss. What am I misunderstanding.
Many of the more backward looking concepts of God in the Bible were simply a reflection of the beliefs of the educated priest class who created the scripture. But because church government also created the false idea that God inspired what they wrote, believers are now left to clean up the insanity and justify what the vast majority of humanity can quite naturally see is unjust.
Regarding the whole killing thing we read about in scripture, I would like to add that there is a whole subject that is hardly ever preached that relates to some or much of these puzzeling Bible verses. It is that of the Nephilim. It is a bigger subject than most realise and the JWs may not teach anything on this, or may hold to the 'sons of Seth' false view.
It seems that Satan tried to corrupt the seed of man perhaps to thwart the messiah being born who was promised through the seed of the woman. Because the messiah was to be a man, and Jesus came in the flesh, the Nephilim who were the offspring of the sons of God and women was an attempt to block the promise. The problem is that the Bible doesn't touch on this in great depth or give an in depth back story, but mentions it here and there as if it were quoting from another Book, probably Enoch. It is not till you actually read the Book of Enoch that certain things become clearer such as the Flood, and why Noah was chosen. Further, scripture says that the Nephilim were in the Earth in those days and after that too. This puts the story of Goliath and many other legends of old into a possible new light. Even the Greek legend Hercules had a god for a father and an earth mother or the Titans etc. Are these the legends of old scripture refers too?
In Enoch, it appears that God wanted the Nephilim eradicated. There is a whole possible explanation here regarding some of the most puzzling verses in scripture. The war between light and darkness shows itself in ways we little understand. Why for example did the Devil and Michael fight over the body of Moses? How was it that an enemy was able to plant tares in God's field? But back to the subject, perhaps part of the war between good and evil is this fight over the preservation of man and the enemy who tries to pollute man spiritually. Perhaps Enoch is right. Satan tries to pollute man physically too and one way was the Nephilim, the offspring of angel and man. Enoch says that these angels also sinned against the animals and created blood thirsty giants which sound a lot like dinosaurs in the description.
God sent a flood, a drastic solution no doubt, but to a drastic problem. He started again with animals that Noah took with him and his family who were probably like him, without blemish. Today we have the power to play with genes. Is this like the days of Noah?
What would happen for example if we crossed a giraffe with a lizard? Maybe something resembling a dinosaur with a long neck? Who knows, but man has already created giant animals. One is called the liger. Where will this go? What new creations will man create? What will man do to himself with this science? Will this partly be the harbinger for the wrath of God and destruction of the old Earth with the promise of a new Earth without sin?
Not understanding the full picture, makes certain verses puzzling and makes you say 'why'. Obviously there is a good answer out there. But I advise anyone against blaming God in our ignorance because that would be arrogant. There is certainly a better way to approach subjects like this. For me, I just know that God is good, and often when I am puzzled by something such as why would God torture someone in Hell forever, it turns out when you study it that God is not actually going to do that.
Quote (david @ Mar. 13 2014,15:45) Ya. Torture isn't good. If I beat you with a stick is that torture? As for misunderstanding, that is why I ask and discuss. What am I misunderstanding.
I haven't studied scripture regarding these questions you ask as much as other subjects. But I will converse anyway in the hope that I too learn something.To your quoted question. My answer is 'it depends'. If you beat me with a stick and it made me move away from an oncoming vehicle, then I would be thankful.
We learn many things through pain. If there was no pain, then we would constantly be putting our lives in danger. Pain is a good thing. But if I inflict pain because I love to watch people suffer, then that is just evil. Adolph Hitler or Kim Jong-un come to mind. God doesn't come to my mind as someone who tortures people for pleasure. In fact I remember a verse that says he has no pleasure in the wicked.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2014,21:08) @ David. I didn't say you did say this or that. I am making general statements on the subject.
“However, not all slavery is bad as you say.”–t8I have actually repeatedly implied the opposite.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2014,21:46) Regarding the whole killing thing we read about in scripture, I would like to add that there is a whole subject that is hardly ever preached that relates to some or much of these puzzeling Bible verses. It is that of the Nephilim. It is a bigger subject than most realise and the JWs may not teach anything on this, or may hold to the 'sons of Seth' false view. It seems that Satan tried to corrupt the seed of man perhaps to thwart the messiah being born who was promised through the seed of the woman. Because the messiah was to be a man, and Jesus came in the flesh, the Nephilim who were the offspring of the sons of God and women was an attempt to block the promise. The problem is that the Bible doesn't touch on this in great depth or give an in depth back story, but mentions it here and there as if it were quoting from another Book, probably Enoch. It is not till you actually read the Book of Enoch that certain things become clearer such as the Flood, and why Noah was chosen. Further, scripture says that the Nephilim were in the Earth in those days and after that too. This puts the story of Goliath and many other legends of old into a possible new light. Even the Greek legend Hercules had a god for a father and an earth mother or the Titans etc. Are these the legends of old scripture refers too?
In Enoch, it appears that God wanted the Nephilim eradicated. There is a whole possible explanation here regarding some of the most puzzling verses in scripture. The war between light and darkness shows itself in ways we little understand. Why for example did the Devil and Michael fight over the body of Moses? How was it that an enemy was able to plant tares in God's field? But back to the subject, perhaps part of the war between good and evil is this fight over the preservation of man and the enemy who tries to pollute man spiritually. Perhaps Enoch is right. Satan tries to pollute man physically too and one way was the Nephilim, the offspring of angel and man. Enoch says that these angels also sinned against the animals and created blood thirsty giants which sound a lot like dinosaurs in the description.
God sent a flood, a drastic solution no doubt, but to a drastic problem. He started again with animals that Noah took with him and his family who were probably like him, without blemish. Today we have the power to play with genes. Is this like the days of Noah?
What would happen for example if we crossed a giraffe with a lizard? Maybe something resembling a dinosaur with a long neck? Who knows, but man has already created giant animals. One is called the liger. Where will this go? What new creations will man create? What will man do to himself with this science? Will this partly be the harbinger for the wrath of God and destruction of the old Earth with the promise of a new Earth without sin?
Not understanding the full picture, makes certain verses puzzling and makes you say 'why'. Obviously there is a good answer out there. But I advise anyone against blaming God in our ignorance because that would be arrogant. There is certainly a better way to approach subjects like this. For me, I just know that God is good, and often when I am puzzled by something such as why would God torture someone in Hell forever, it turns out when you study it that God is not actually going to do that.
Agreed on hell. So no need to discuss that.While we may make the mind bend to fit our psychologically comfortable ideas, sometimes it's harder than others. Such as:
Joshua 11:6
At this Jehovah said to Joshua: “Do not be afraid because of them, for about this time tomorrow, I am giving over all of them slain to Israel. Their horses you must hamstring, and their chariots you must burn in the fire.” 7 Joshua together with all the fighting men then launched a surprise attack against them along the waters of Mer′om.Hamstringing horses seems to be understood to be torture. It seems to serve no other purpose but to cause the horse uneccesary pain.
So why? Why would God command the torture of horses?
Quote (david @ Mar. 13 2014,13:02) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 10 2014,14:48) Is slavery wrong? No.
Is forced slavery wrong? Yes.We should be slaves of Christ. But we choose to serve him. He doesn't force us to serve him.
That is my view now without delving deep into scripture regarding it.
NickIs forced slavery wrong? T8 says yes.
T8 says forced slavery is wrong. This is based on FEELINGS about slavery, but I'm certain he would quickly change his words if he read a couple scriptures showing obvious forced slavery as a part of the law.
“Is forced slavery wrong? Yes.”–t8So much of the slavery practiced in the bible was wrong? The sort of slavery where they conquer nations, and take the women and children or sometimes the virgins, and kill the rest. And then enslave these captives as foreign slaves.
These people did not choose to sell themselves into slavery.
It was forced slavery. T8 said it was wrong.
I'm guessing he truly feels forced slavery is wrong but upon reading a few scriptures and with a conclusion already in mind he will begin to think forced slavery isn't so bad.
My view is that forced slavery is great. And it seems the Greek scriptures say we should continue to teach about the yoke of slavery. And I'm just searching countries now where I can locate and acquire some slaves, in accordance with biblical standards and laws. Would anyone feel the lesser of me if I did this?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2014,22:04) Quote (david @ Mar. 13 2014,15:45) Ya. Torture isn't good. If I beat you with a stick is that torture? As for misunderstanding, that is why I ask and discuss. What am I misunderstanding.
I haven't studied scripture regarding these questions you ask as much as other subjects. But I will converse anyway in the hope that I too learn something.To your quoted question. My answer is 'it depends'. If you beat me with a stick and it made me move away from an oncoming vehicle, then I would be thankful.
We learn many things through pain. If there was no pain, then we would constantly be putting our lives in danger. Pain is a good thing. But if I inflict pain because I love to watch people suffer, then that is just evil. Adolph Hitler or Kim Jong-un come to mind. God doesn't come to my mind as someone who tortures people for pleasure. In fact I remember a verse that says he has no pleasure in the wicked.
If I beat you as some weird method to get you to move out of the way of a moving vehicle then you would be happy. (I would probably just yell: “hey, look out,” or push you.).What if rather than me beating you to save your life I was bearing you for these types of reasons:
PROVERBS 26:3
A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!PROVERBS 19:29
Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.PROVERBS 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment.PROVERBS 18:6
“The lips of one who is stupid enter into quarreling, and his very mouth calls even for strokes.”PROVERBS 20:30
Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost …David
the punishment in those scriptures are not to prevent those people to do or act as it says it is the punishment of what they do and refuse to change
Deut 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them, then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
Deut 25:2 And it shall be, if the WICKED man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Duet 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
You can see here that a beating is not handed out willy nilly, but the WICKED MAN brought before judges and judged.
The wicked man David, not a righteous man, or innocent man, but a wicked man.
This is to JUSTIFY THE RIGHTEOUS, and not the wicked.How uncanny. A wicked man deserving of stripes has got the pity of many, but a righteous man receiving stripes is not given a second thought (Christ)
Just pointing out the world's view David.
Quote (david @ Mar. 14 2014,10:24) If I beat you as some weird method to get you to move out of the way of a moving vehicle then you would be happy. (I would probably just yell: “hey, look out,” or push you.). What if rather than me beating you to save your life I was bearing you for these types of reasons:
PROVERBS 26:3
A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!PROVERBS 19:29
Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.PROVERBS 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment.PROVERBS 18:6
“The lips of one who is stupid enter into quarreling, and his very mouth calls even for strokes.”PROVERBS 20:30
Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost …
Sure your way is good if it works.That said, if the rod of correction is definitely and only an actual stick, then Jesus is coming back with an actual double edged sword in his mouth.
David, slavery was a curse that not only came upon non_Jews, but perhaps more so to Jews. When the Jews were in slavery it was never a good thing, it was a judgement. My guess is it was no different for others. What you sow is what you reap. Sometimes it takes years to reap that which has been sown.
Thus I don't think this kind of slavery is ever good. I also don't think being in debt is good either, but that doesn't mean these things won't happen. The debtor is a slave to the lender. Even to this day.
Being a slave to Christ is a choice. This is the good side of slavery. When we choose to serve because we believe in the one we serve.
Hi David
Is incest wrong?
it certainly is.
Was it wrong in the beginning of days?
No.
Adam and Eve's children had to populate the earth.
and Abraham married his half sister.When the earth was well populated, and the law and ordinances came in, it was time to put a stop to it, because it had already served it's purpose.
Now, incest is an abomination. A new law.The same with slavery.
It served it's purpose,
but it is not allowed now by international laws.
God made it happen that way,
not through the scriptures,
because not all nations would adhere to the scriptures,
even so called christian nations to come,
but for the slaves sakes, God phased it out through international laws.
so, although there is no law against slavery written in the old and new testament, it has been phased out,
not by Satan, but by God.
because we know by history that man, especially America abused his power over slaves.Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 14 2014,11:30) Deut 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them, then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. Deut 25:2 And it shall be, if the WICKED man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Duet 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
You can see here that a beating is not handed out willy nilly, but the WICKED MAN brought before judges and judged.
The wicked man David, not a righteous man, or innocent man, but a wicked man.
This is to JUSTIFY THE RIGHTEOUS, and not the wicked.How uncanny. A wicked man deserving of stripes has got the pity of many, but a righteous man receiving stripes is not given a second thought (Christ)
Just pointing out the world's view David.
This is when there were disputes or controversies and judgments had to be made by the older men.
What does this have to do with slavery.
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