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“12 years a slave” just won as best movie of 2013 at the oscars. Got me thinking about slavery. Saw this one thread.
Quote (david @ Aug. 29 2008,15:22) DEUTERONOMY 15:12-17
““In case there should be sold to you your brother, a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, and he has served you six years, then in the seventh year you should send him out from you as one set free. And in case you should send him out from you as one set free, you must not send him out empty-handed. You should surely equip him with something from your flock and your threshing floor and your oil and winepress. Just as Jehovah your God has blessed you, you should give to him. And you must remember that you became a slave in the land of Egypt and Jehovah your God proceeded to redeem you. That is why I am commanding you this thing today. “And it must occur that in case he says to you, ‘I shall not go out from your company!’ because he does love you and your household, since it was well with him while with you, you must also take an awl and put it through his ear and to the door, and he must become your slave to time indefinite. And to your slave girl you should also do this way.”What does the fact that some Israelite slaves chose to remain with their master indicate?
EXODUS 21:2-6
“If you buy a HEBREW slave, he will serve as a slave for six years, but in the seventh year, he will be set free without paying anything. If he came by himself, he will go out by himself. If he is the husband of a wife, then HIS WIFE MUST NOT GO OUT WITH HIM. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, THE WIFE AND THE CHILDREN WILL BECOME HER MASTER'S, and he will go out by himself. But if the slave should insist and say, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my sons; I do not want to be set free,’ his master must bring him before the true God. Then he will bring him up against the door or the doorpost, and his master will pierce his ear through with an awl, and he will be his slave for life.”Answering my own question:
It would be hard to leave your wife and sons, with them not being allowed to leave.
(Unless it's the jubilee year apparently, [LEVITICUS 25:39-46] and then the wife and children also get to leave.)Not sure about that above. Just looking into this now.
I have been away for a while.
I went to another country where slavery still exists. I bought some people and they are now my possessions or property. My money. I am careful not to injure their teeth or eyes but I do beat them with a stick as a form of discipline from time to time. It seems these servants or slaves pay no heed to words. What choice do I have? (Prov 29:19)
While I know this is scripturally ok, I'm starting to have second thoughts about it. What do others think?
What do others think about me?
It does not seem like slavery was ever done away with from a biblical standpoint. It seems like it's something that we should still be teaching:
1 TIMOTHY 6:1-3
“Let those who are under the yoke of SLAVERY keep on considering their owners worthy of full honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may never be spoken of injuriously. Moreover, let those having believing owners not be disrespectful to them because they are brothers. Rather, they should serve more readily, because those receiving the benefit of their good service are believers and beloved. KEEP ON TEACHING THESE THINGS and giving these exhortations. IF ANY MAN TEACHES ANOTHER DOCTRINE and does not agree with the wholesome instruction…”(The above is of course made up.)
There are the poor that also need an existence.
This is the reason they are slaves,the only existence
they can manage to have.
The masters are also there to keep them in existence.
But God has strict rules for the masters to follow.
Or they will be judged.The slaves rule is to obey their masters.
For they depend on their masters for a living.
We are all slaves to the system,and to our masters/bosses.
We need our jobs to exist; to maintain the flesh.But we should never be slaves to sin,for sin is the breaking of God's laws.
Many masters are also slaves to sin and lust,and greed.
They also have their own masters.wakeup.
Hey WAKEUP.
Yes. There were the Israelite slaves that fell on hard times and sold themselves into slavery (more of a hired worker situation, a servant)
Then there were the non-Israelite slaves. Totally not the same at all. Actual slavery.
For example:
FOREIGN SLAVES (captured in war)
DEUT 20:10-16
“If you approach a city to fight against it, you should also announce to it terms of peace. If it gives a peaceful answer to you and opens up to you, all the people found there will become yours for forced labor, and they will serve you. But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead goes to war with you, you should besiege it, and Jehovah your God will certainly give it into your hand, and you must STRIKE DOWN EVERY MALE in it with the sword. However, the WOMEN, the CHILDREN, the LIVESTOCK, and everything that is in the city, all its spoil, YOU MAY PLUNDER FOR YOURSELF, and you will eat the spoil of your enemies, which Jehovah your God has given to you. “That is what you will do to all the cities very far away from you that are not of the cities of these nearby nations. 16 But in the cities of these peoples, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not allow any breathing thing to live.”These slaves were not people who were poor. They were people who were captured.
Or this:
LEVITICUS 25:39-46,53
“‘If your brother [an Israelite] who lives nearby becomes poor and he has to sell himself to you, you must NOT force him to do SLAVE LABOR. He should be TREATED LIKE A HIRED WORKER, like a settler. He should serve with you until the Jubilee year. Then he will leave you, he and his children with him, and return to his family. He should return to the property of his forefathers. For they are my slaves whom I brought out of the land of Egypt. They should not sell themselves the way a slave is sold. You MUST NOT TREAT HIM CRUELLY, and you must be in fear of your God. Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you, from them you may buy a male or a female slave. Also from the sons of the FOREIGN settlers who are residing with you, from them and from their families that are born to them in your land you may buy slaves, and they will become your POSSESSION. You may pass them on as an inheritance to your sons after you to inherit as a permanent POSSESSION. You may use them [non-Israeilites] as workers, but you must NOT SUBJECT YOUR ISRAELITE BROTHERS TO CRUEL TREATMENT….He should continue to serve him year by year AS A HIRED WORKER; and you should see to it that he does NOT TREAT HIM CRUELLY.”(The law wasn't that you can't treat your slave cruelly, but that you can't treat your Israelite slaves cruelly. Non-Israelite slaves could be enslaved indefinitely and were to be treated as inheritance property, a possession. But Israelite slaves were allowed to go after 6 years or the next Jubilee, whichever came first if I understand it.)
So yes, HEBREW slaves (hired workers really; servants) were not treated cruelly and they were slaves because they were poor, BUT the non-Israelite slaves were actual slaves. They were “I'm going to hit you with a stick now” slaves.
How would you respond?
“But God has strict rules for the masters to follow.”–WAKEUP
I have been trying to compile a list of these rules. So far I have only found these as far as actual specific treatment:
EXODUS 21:20,21
“If a man strikes his slave man or his slave girl with a stick and that one dies by his hand, that one must be avenged. However, if he survives for one or two days, he is not to be avenged, because he is someone bought with his owner’s money.”
(You were allowed to beat your property but must ensure that he or she survives.)EXODUS 21:26,27
“If a man strikes the eye of his slave man or the eye of his slave girl and he destroys it, he is to let the slave go free in compensation for his eye. And if he knocks out the tooth of his slave man or of his slave girl, he is to let the slave go free in compensation for his tooth.“The slaves rule is to obey their masters.
For they depend on their masters for a living.”–WAKEUPWell what if I depend on my employer for a living? Must I stand there and obediently be hit with a stick, because I depend on my employer for a living?
Obeying an employers rules is one thing.
Owning the person, viewing them as a possession and property, and being able to treat them as such is another.
Is slavery wrong? No.
Is forced slavery wrong? Yes.We should be slaves of Christ. But we choose to serve him. He doesn't force us to serve him.
That is my view now without delving deep into scripture regarding it.
Is slavery wrong? No. [[[define “slavery.”]]]
Is forced slavery wrong? Yes. [[[so some slavery in the bible was wrong? See above.]]]We should be slaves of Christ. But we choose to serve him. He doesn't force us to serve him. [[I have no issues, questions or concerns about the "hired worker" type of servant that Hebrew male slaves were, the ones that were to not be treated cruelly. They were not "slaves" as we generally use the term today. I am only focusing on the foreign slaves.]]
That is my view now without delving deep into scripture regarding it. [[[ok]]]
————–
An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.
————–
Titus 1:9: He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
————–WOMEN HEBREW SALVES WERE TREATED DIFFERENT
EX 21:7-11
“If a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not go free the same way that a slave man does. If her master is not pleased with her and he does not designate her as a concubine but causes her to be purchased by someone else, he will not be entitled to sell her to foreigners, for he has betrayed her. If he selects her for his son, he is to grant her the rights of a daughter. If he takes another wife for himself, the sustenance, the clothing, and the marriage due of the first wife are not to be diminished. If he will not render these three things to her, then she is to go free without paying any money.
(Gods law was that Israeilite dad's could sell their daughters as concubines to other men, which today might be termed 'sex slavery,' and these girls could also be given to their sons.)If the dad sells his daughter, and the one buying the daughter is pleased with her, then she shall be his concubine. If he isn't pleased with her and sells her again, it can't be to a non-Israelite.
BEATINGS.
SCRIPTURES NOT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT SLAVERY BUT ONES THAT PEOPLE WHO OWNED SLAVES MAY HAVE CONSIDERED:
DEUTERONOMY 25:2
“And it must occur that if the wicked one deserves to be beaten, the judge must also have him laid prostrate and given strokes before him by number to correspond with his wicked deed.”
(Beatings were not just for slaves so they were somewhat common.)THE ROD AND BEATINGS ARE FOR THE BACK OF FOOLS.
PROVERBS 26:3
A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!PROVERBS 19:29
Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.PROVERBS 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment.PROVERBS 18:6
“The lips of one who is stupid enter into quarreling, and his very mouth calls even for strokes.”BEATINGS CLEANSE AWAY EVIL
PROVERBS 20:30
Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.If a slave owner reads proverbs 20:30, what is he going to do?
New International Version
Blows and wounds scrub away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.New Living Translation
Physical punishment cleanses away evil; such discipline purifies the heart.English Standard Version
Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts.New American Standard Bible
Stripes that wound scour away evil, And strokes reach the innermost parts.King James Bible
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.Holman Christian Standard Bible
Lashes and wounds purge away evil, and beatings cleanse the innermost parts.International Standard Version
Blows that wound clean away evil; such beatings cleanse the innermost being.NET Bible
Beatings and wounds cleanse away evil, and floggings cleanse the innermost being.Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Misery and torment fall upon the evil, and affliction into the inner rooms of the belly.GOD'S WORD® Translation
Brutal beatings cleanse away wickedness. Such beatings cleanse the innermost being.Jubilee Bible 2000
The scars of past wounds are medicine for evil, and living reproof reaches the most secret places in the inward parts.King James 2000 Bible
Blows of a wound cleanse away evil: as do stripes the inner depths of the heart.American King James Version
The blueness of a wound cleans away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.American Standard Version
Stripes that wound cleanse away evil; And strokes reach the innermost parts.Douay-Rheims Bible
The blueness of a wound shall wipe away evils: and stripes in the more in- ward parts of the belly.Darby Bible Translation
Wounding stripes purge away evil, and strokes [purge] the inner parts of the belly.English Revised Version
Stripes that wound cleanse away evil: and strokes reach the innermost parts of the belly.Webster's Bible Translation
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.World English Bible
Wounding blows cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the innermost parts.Young's Literal Translation
The bandages of a wound thou removest with the evil, Also the plagues of the inner parts of the heart!He is going to beat his slave. To cleanse away evil.
Choosing to be a slave to a good master is a good thing if the master is the only one who can provide what it is you need.
Today we are slaves to the bank masters who own our mortgages. We are slaves to Credit Card companies. We are slaves to our employer.
When the word slave is used, I guess people just picture 12 years a slave or the history of slavery in the US. Like I said earlier, I haven't studied this in the Bible so I am just putting out there what I think on the outset. We are all slaves to something, and if someone says they are not, and they are not a slave to Christ, then they are a slave to sin.
Does slavery mean forced labour? Did it always mean forced labour in Biblical times?
If you don't work, you don't eat. You have to work for someone right. Question is, can you walk away if you want.
The rod of correction is also not necessarily a device for beating someone or something. God corrects me and I don't remember the last time I was beaten by him. Point being it is any method which corrects us, steadies us, or warns us to move the other way. Scripture uses metaphors that men understand. Back in the day before modern technology, many would have understood the devices that we use on animals to get them to do what we want. It wasn't by default cruelty. In fact I would argue that the rod of correction is not cruel at all, rather the word 'abuse' comes to mind when thinking of cruelity.
Quote (david @ Mar. 10 2014,11:31) “The slaves rule is to obey their masters.
For they depend on their masters for a living.”–WAKEUPWell what if I depend on my employer for a living? Must I stand there and obediently be hit with a stick, because I depend on my employer for a living?
Obeying an employers rules is one thing.
Owning the person, viewing them as a possession and property, and being able to treat them as such is another.
David.I know it is hard to understand all that,but we also must know
That all things are in God's hands.
He knows what is going on in this world.
Slaves are allowed in this world,because it is the spirit of men
and the system of men running this world.The twelve tribes were slaves in Egypt for 430 years.
This is how the world opperates;by the law of the jungle.
Dog eat dog.If the bosses can get away by paying his workers
on dollar a day;they will do it.Workers are owned by the company or the next company,
they work for.
Even today:we are told how to dress what to eat,what not to eat. How to walk,what is cool and what is not cool.
How to wear the hair.Hollywood is responible to do this,and they have done a good job.wakeup.
THE enemy conquered are made slaves;this is commomsense.
Because they will not gave them a chance to come up again.
Slavery is of this world,and is part of this world.
This will be no more in the new world.wakeup.
Yes, slavery is wrong but it was a common practice among the people who wrote the older Bible books about themselves.
There are many atrocities in the Bible which the writer’s credit to God, but that doesn't mean that God condones them and he certainly didn't inspire that to be written, it means the proud authors were justifying the behavior of their ancestors long after the fact.
Like the story of Moses directing that virgin children be taken as the spoils of war while all others were killed.
Numbers 31:17-18
King James Version (KJV)17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 10 2014,17:59) The rod of correction is also not necessarily a device for beating someone or something. God corrects me and I don't remember the last time I was beaten by him. Point being it is any method which corrects us, steadies us, or warns us to move the other way. Scripture uses metaphors that men understand. Back in the day before modern technology, many would have understood the devices that we use on animals to get them to do what we want. It wasn't by default cruelty. In fact I would argue that the rod of correction is not cruel at all, rather the word 'abuse' comes to mind when thinking of cruelity.
T8I am not here discussing any “rod” that you believe is being applied to you today figuratively.
I am concerned with the idea of me beating you with an actual rod (a large staff, such as a shephard would use.). Or, someone doing that to me. Perhaps our modern world is too sensitive to violence and pain. Maybe violence is he norm and right. Maybe I have too much empathy.
Do you not think that people back then reading these words would have done exactly what the scripture literally says to do:
“if the wicked one deserves to be beaten, the judge must also have him laid prostrate and given strokes before him by number to correspond with his wicked deed”
(This was obviously quite literal)“A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!”
“Penalties are prepared for mockers, and beatings for the backs of fools.”
“Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks judgment.”
(When it says a rod for the “back,” it seems too specific to be figurative)“The lips of one who is stupid enter into quarreling, and his very mouth calls even for strokes.”
“Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.”
Would it not be easy to read these verses and believe that your slave should be literally beaten? The law specified how far you could literally go with literal beatings: not destroying their eyes or teeth or killing them.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 10 2014,17:59) The rod of correction is also not necessarily a device for beating someone or something. God corrects me and I don't remember the last time I was beaten by him. Point being it is any method which corrects us, steadies us, or warns us to move the other way. Scripture uses metaphors that men understand. Back in the day before modern technology, many would have understood the devices that we use on animals to get them to do what we want. It wasn't by default cruelty. In fact I would argue that the rod of correction is not cruel at all, rather the word 'abuse' comes to mind when thinking of cruelity.
Quick brief side note on animals and cruelty which you were mentioningJoshua 11:6
At this Jehovah said to Joshua: “Do not be afraid because of them, for about this time tomorrow, I am giving over all of them slain to Israel. Their horses you must hamstring, and their chariots you must burn in the fire.” 7 Joshua together with all the fighting men then launched a surprise attack against them along the waters of Mer′om.
Hamstringing horses seems to be understood to be torture. It seems to serve no other purpose but to cause the horse uneccesary pain.
I have never understood:
Why would God command the torture of horses? The horses were not doing anything wrong or capable of any other course of action. So why the need for torture?Quote (t8 @ Mar. 10 2014,17:50) Choosing to be a slave to a good master is a good thing if the master is the only one who can provide what it is you need. Today we are slaves to the bank masters who own our mortgages. We are slaves to Credit Card companies. We are slaves to our employer.
When the word slave is used, I guess people just picture 12 years a slave or the history of slavery in the US. Like I said earlier, I haven't studied this in the Bible so I am just putting out there what I think on the outset. We are all slaves to something, and if someone says they are not, and they are not a slave to Christ, then they are a slave to sin.
Does slavery mean forced labour? Did it always mean forced labour in Biblical times?
If you don't work, you don't eat. You have to work for someone right. Question is, can you walk away if you want.
T8A very distorted picture has been painted and I think I understand why.
Sure. Yes, the HEBREW MALE slaves were willingly choosing their course. I mention this repeatedly. Don't care at all about them. They were not really slaves as we understand them but were treated as “hired workers” as the bible says.
Further, I more than anyone on here I believe understand that we can all be called slaves of the banking monetary system which is a huge ponzu scheme created by the rich and powerful. Money is fabricated out of thin air, and then somehow owed to the bankers. The central banks really run the world. I get that. Not talking about that here. No banker has of yet come to my house and beaten me with a stick although taxes are the assertion of force and if we don't pay people will come to my house and throw me in a dungeon in their basement. But still, that's a little different than what I'm discussing.
I am more so here discussing the 12 years a slave, type of slaves. Actual slaves. The kinds that were stolen, kidnapped, conquered by the Israelites. The kind that god had rules for about no wrecking their teeth or eyes.
No, slavery of course doesn't ALWAYS mean forced labour in biblical times.
But I am only here discussing actual slavery, actual forced labor.Yes if you don't work you don't eat. Don't care about the Hebrews who sold themself into debt slavery and were treated like brothers and hired workers to the master. Only care about the actual slaves. The ones who didn't want to become slaves. The ones who were beaten with sticks.
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