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Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 14 2008,12:02) Hi 94, Thank you for the time that you put in to studying this issue.
I am afraid that it doesn't help me to feel any better about God condoning slavery though.
So God said that the Hebrews could basically make slaves out of anybody else on earth except
for other Hebrews.That just sounds like something that the Hebrews would say, not God.
I have to admit, I am having a lot of problems with the Old Testament.
I simply can not turn off my own God given values and reason accept something like slavery
being condoned by God, and then cry out “God is good”. I think that God is too good to have permitted slavery.Tim
Hi Tim:I understand what you are saying, but I believe that I have given you what God has given me to give you relative to this subject.
God is good, and His purpose for this world is to save His children. Those in the OT who were not His children in the OT have been judged. They had many opportunities to repent. Also, who knows is some of those who were slaves, were saved. They would have been exposed to the Law of Moses. I know that they could participate in the Passover if they (men) were circumcised, and also, they were allowed to rest on the Sabbath day.
I know that there are many things in the OT that are hard to understand, and we should pray and ask God for understanding, but we, as Christians should focus on what God has done for us in the person of Jesus His Son and His Christ. When we have seen the life that Jesus has lived we have seen God's attributes.
Quote 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. The above verses show the goodness of God, but there is another side also and that is that he is a God of justice. Every man will give an account for the life that he has lived on this earth.
Any way, I have done my best to anwer your questions. I will pray for you.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 14 2008,04:47) To all who had a question about slavery in the OT: God has said that his children whom He delivered out of Egypt would not be slaves again. They are His servants. This is literal and is also symbolic of those in the NT who have been delivered from slavery to sin through the Lord Jesus.
Quote Lev 25:39 ¶ And if thy brother [that dwelleth] by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant:
Lev 25:40 [But] as an hired servant, [and] as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, [and] shall serve thee unto the year of jubile:
Lev 25:41 And [then] shall he depart from thee, [both] he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.
Lev 25:42 For they [are] my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.
Lev 25:43 Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy GodQuote Jhn 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.God allowed forced labor or slavery as judgment against His enemies and the enemies of His people. For some of God's enemies, those in the land of Caanan that God was giving to His children the judgement was anihilation. In the NT the gospel is to be preached to every creature, and judgment against God's enemies and the enemies of His people will be with-held until the end-times. Present day Israel abides by International Law which forbids slavery.
Quote Deu 20:10 ¶ When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
Deu 20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, [that] all the people [that is] found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
Deu 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
Deu 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
Deu 20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Deu 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off from thee, which [are] not of the cities of these nations.
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deu 20:18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.Also, If the people of the Nation of Israel needed additional labor to work their lands, God allowed them to buy the children of the heathen nations that lived around them or from the gentiles living among them in their country. This was a voluntary thing on the part of those who sold their children. They didn't have to sell them if they did not want.
Quote Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.In my study of this subject I found the following websites helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religio….1.shtml
I hope that this helps.
God Bless
94xxxx,Thanks for taking the time to look into this. I appreciate your willingness to take on some of the tough issues. I would echo what Tim said about how this answer doesn't fully satisfy, but I will put it in a different way:
Who are God's enemies? Gentiles? Sinners? Did Jesus die to save only 'God's friends'?
Allowing His “chosen people” to enslave the rest of the world does not exactly send the message that God cared for all people. Did God really hate the gentiles as much as Jews seemed to despise them? If so, when did he start loving them enough to send Jesus to die for them?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 16 2008,05:41) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 14 2008,04:47) To all who had a question about slavery in the OT: God has said that his children whom He delivered out of Egypt would not be slaves again. They are His servants. This is literal and is also symbolic of those in the NT who have been delivered from slavery to sin through the Lord Jesus.
Quote Lev 25:39 ¶ And if thy brother [that dwelleth] by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant:
Lev 25:40 [But] as an hired servant, [and] as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, [and] shall serve thee unto the year of jubile:
Lev 25:41 And [then] shall he depart from thee, [both] he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.
Lev 25:42 For they [are] my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.
Lev 25:43 Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy GodQuote Jhn 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.God allowed forced labor or slavery as judgment against His enemies and the enemies of His people. For some of God's enemies, those in the land of Caanan that God was giving to His children the judgement was anihilation. In the NT the gospel is to be preached to every creature, and judgment against God's enemies and the enemies of His people will be with-held until the end-times. Present day Israel abides by International Law which forbids slavery.
Quote Deu 20:10 ¶ When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
Deu 20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, [that] all the people [that is] found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
Deu 20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
Deu 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
Deu 20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Deu 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off from thee, which [are] not of the cities of these nations.
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deu 20:18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.Also, If the people of the Nation of Israel needed additional labor to work their lands, God allowed them to buy the children of the heathen nations that lived around them or from the gentiles living among them in their country. This was a voluntary thing on the part of those who sold their children. They didn't have to sell them if they did not want.
Quote Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.In my study of this subject I found the following websites helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religio….1.shtml
I hope that this helps.
God Bless
94xxxx,Thanks for taking the time to look into this. I appreciate your willingness to take on some of the tough issues. I would echo what Tim said about how this answer doesn't fully satisfy, but I will put it in a different way:
Who are God's enemies? Gentiles? Sinners? Did Jesus die to save only 'God's friends'?
Allowing His “chosen people” to enslave the rest of the world does not exactly send the message that God cared for all people. Did God really hate the gentiles as much as Jews seemed to despise them? If so, when did he start loving them enough to send Jesus to die for them?
Hi WhatIsTrue:Looked up the word enemy in the dictionary and I get the following definition:
Quote 1. a person(persons, nations) who feels hatred for, fosters harmful designs against, or engages in antagonistic activities against another; an adversary or opponent. And the following scriptures indicate who are enemies of God:
Quote Psa 68:21But God shall wound the head of his enemies, [and] the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses. Psa 66:3Say unto God, How terrible [art thou in] thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee.
Psa 3:7Arise, O LORD; save m
e, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies [upon] the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
Psa 59:1[[To the chief Musician, Altaschith, Michtam of David; when Saul sent, and they watched the house to kill him.]] Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me.Neh 5:9Also I said, It [is] not good that ye do: ought ye not to walk in the fear of our God because of the reproach of the heathen our enemies
Quote Rom 5:10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And so, all people and nations who are not serving God are His enemies and those of His people.
In the OT, the Nation of Israel was to be to the surrounding nations what the church is supposed to be in the NT, that is a people who glorifying God through obedience to His commandments. There is much symbolism in the OT which tells the literal story of God's intent for this world and the world to come. The land that God gave to the Nation of Israel represents the new world that will be paradise for all of God's children. In the OT those who were in that land were annihilated by the literal sword, this represented the judgment of God rendered to them because of their idolatry.
They were annihalted because:Quote However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Completely destroy[fn1] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you.
Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.In the OT, the Nation of Israel was an agricultural community and labor was needed to work their lands. From those nations who were at war with the Nation of Israel God allowed the captives to be used as forced labor. I guess that you can relate this to POW's or to those who break the laws of society and are put in prison. In prison, they are basically enslaved until their time is served. Again, this was judgments of God rendered to them because of their disobedience. But as I stated, it is possible they could have been saved while they were enslaved because they were exposed to the Law of Moses. They were allowed to participate in the passover (men had to be circumcised first) and they participated in the Sabbath day.
There may have been heathen nations or people who were not particularly at war with the Nation of Israel. By definition they were still the enemies of God and of His people. From these nations or people God allowed the Nation of Israel to buy needed labor to work their lands in the form of forced labor. These people did not have to sell their children. This was voluntary. (Would you sell your children?) Furthermore, would these children be better off in slavery with the Nation of Israel than with their parents? Living as slaves in the Nation of Israel they would be exposed to the Law of Moses and possibly could be saved by virture of this. Some of the practices of the heathen nations were sacrificing their children to their gods. The following verse shows some of the people of the Nation of Israel being enticed to do the same:
Quote 2Ki 17:17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger Again in the OT, those who have died in their sins have been judged and whatever punishment was rendered to them is the judgment from God against them because of their sins. They will not be resurrected to incur further judgment. They are no more. They are dead.
In the NT, the gospel is to be preached to every creature.
Quote Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.As I have stated in the OT, judgement against God's enemies has already been rendered. In the NT, judgement against God's enemies will be withheld until the last days:
Quote Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Those who have not been saved and who are alive at the coming of the Lord for the church will be judged according to their works by the 7 last plagues. Those who have died in their sins will be resurrected after 1000 years from the coming of the Lord for the church, and will be judged according to their works in the lake of fire which is the second death or eternal separation from God.
You ask:
Quote Did God really hate the gentiles as much as Jews seemed to despise them? If so, when did he start loving them enough to send Jesus to die for them? God does not hate the people but hates what they do and judges them according to their works the evil that they obey.
There were gentiles saved in the OT. Perhaps, not many, but some, but any person at any time can repent and obey God if they choose to do so. These people in the OT who were not serving God had heard of the flood, and they had heard of how God had delivered the Nation of Israel out of Egypt, for example. They could have repented and made the God of Israel their God just as Ruth who was a Moabitess did. Instead they chose to practice idolatry.Although Jesus is not manifested to the world until what we commonly know as the era of the latter days. It was God's plan from the beginning to provide the sacrifice for the sins of all who would choose to be reconciled to Him from the beginning of creation until the end of this world. And so, He is the propitiation for the sins of Enoch in the period before the flood, for Noah and his family, for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for those of the Nation Israel who were striving to obey God under the Law of Moses, and for all who come to God through Jesus in the NT era.
God Bless
Hi 94,
I admire how you are able to sanitize the butchery of the O.T.
You will make a good preacher. The only sermons that I ever heard in church were the sanitized versions.But from what the bible says, the Jews were not an agricultural community.
At least not until after they were through taking the farms and land from the people who really owned them.They were not an agricultural community. They were a nomadic warring tribe of pirates who survived by plundering, killing and stealing from other people who had worked to build something. The enemies of God were evidently many. Everyone who was not a Hebrew was to be destroyed..
Even little toddlers, one year old girls and boys were His enemies. Even pregnant mothers and their yet to be born babies were His enemies. They were all to die by the sword, or become a slave if they were a virgin girl.I don’t know how you can say that they might have been better off living in slavery to the nation of Israel because they would be exposed to the laws of Moses. Do you mean that God could not find a better way than slavery to get His laws out to the people.
After all, Moses is the only one He told them to. He might have just appeared to some other people. That wouldn’t be too hard for God. Perhaps they would have been better off living in slavery to the nation of Israel than dead. But that is supposition. Perhaps they would have rather been dead.Thank you for trying 94. As I said I admire your ability to look at the OT through rose colored glasses. But I guess I am a lost soul when it comes to seeing the good in something so bad. God is going to have to make me see it differently.
But I will tell you something. I am not too certain that God is not going to shake His head and ask many people how they could believe the terrible stuff written about Him.
Whoa to the man that calls evil good.Tim
Tim,
Your post is sobering.
So you've given the OT a shot and have now decided that it cannot be reconciled with the God you know and love? You've listened and pondered 94's teaching's along with other's, and have decided that they just don't jive? Where do these lost souls go who have walked away from traditional indoctrination and fearful acceptance? Where are YOU going? Can I come too?
Mandy
Hi Mandy,
I am not sure where I go from here.
All I am certain of is that I still see God in His creation. I love Him for all that He provides for our continued existence. I think some ancient people got a glimpse
of God and have expanded on that rudimentary understanding. The bible contains a little of there understanding along with a lot of filler in my opinion.If some think that God will discard me for this belief, then so be it. I believe that God loves His creation and does not discard a single soul when it is within His power to save that soul, and everything is within His power.
Where am I going? I personally know some people who were believers and became atheists after really studying the bible. Isn’t that a sad commentary for the holy word of God? A book inspired by God should never drive His followers away from Him. I can never see myself becoming an atheist.. But I can very easily see myself divorcing myself from the institution that is called the church. I think I really go there now more for the fellowship than for the spiritual teaching any way.
In truth, I hang around this board in the hopes that someone might explain away some of my concerns with the O.T. in a rational way that does not require for me to abandon my reason. Everyone says that what God commanded can not be bad because God is only capable of doing good. This is just an extension to the Euthyphro dilemma.
Does God only do good, or is anything that God does good, because God did it.
We are forced to believe in the OT that all manner of evil is good because God did it.Actually, being forced to believe that anything is acceptable if God commands it really frightens me. Can you imagine a modern day Moses, or president, or king saying that God has commanded them to completely destroy various nations. You may say that can not happen. But why can it not? Can we say that God would never command such a thing if we believe that He is capable of that and in fact did command it before. Would the Christians that claim that the genocide in the bible was good be willing to do the same today if they were dillusioned into thinking that God commanded it?
We are fortunate that fully 95% of supposed Christians today never even open their bible, and have no idea what the Holy word really says. And those that read their bible usually read only their favorite verses in Psalms, Proverbs or the New Testament.
Can you come too?
I don’t think that you would want to.Good luck in your search.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 16 2008,23:47) Hi 94, I admire how you are able to sanitize the butchery of the O.T.
You will make a good preacher. The only sermons that I ever heard in church were the sanitized versions.But from what the bible says, the Jews were not an agricultural community.
At least not until after they were through taking the farms and land from the people who really owned them.They were not an agricultural community. They were a nomadic warring tribe of pirates who survived by plundering, killing and stealing from other people who had worked to build something. The enemies of God were evidently many. Everyone who was not a Hebrew was to be destroyed..
Even little toddlers, one year old girls and boys were His enemies. Even pregnant mothers and their yet to be born babies were His enemies. They were all to die by the sword, or become a slave if they were a virgin girl.I don’t know how you can say that they might have been better off living in slavery to the nation of Israel because they would be exposed to the laws of Moses. Do you mean that God could not find a better way than slavery to get His laws out to the people.
After all, Moses is the only one He told them to. He might have just appeared to some other people. That wouldn’t be too hard for God. Perhaps they would have been better off living in slavery to the nation of Israel than dead. But that is supposition. Perhaps they would have rather been dead.Thank you for trying 94. As I said I admire your ability to look at the OT through rose colored glasses. But I guess I am a lost soul when it comes to seeing the good in something so bad. God is going to have to make me see it differently.
But I will tell you something. I am not too certain that God is not going to shake His head and ask many people how they could believe the terrible stuff written about Him.
Whoa to the man that calls evil good.Tim
Hi Tim:I have answered your questions, and so, if this does not satisfy you search for the answers yourself. I don't see anyone else trying to help you with your questions.
It is always so easy to critisize.
Good luck in your search
Quote (TimothyVI @ Sep. 18 2008,23:01) Hi 94, I think you missunderstood.
I was certainly not criticizing you. I truly admire you.Tim
Ok Tim, maybe I did misunderstood your comment. I know that there are many things that are hard to understand in the OT, and I am learning also as the questions are posed and as I seek God for understanding, but I am giving you my understanding not “sanitizing or trying to sanitize the scriptures”. That implies that I am being dishonest.I believe that you disagreed with me when I said that the Nation of Israel was basically an agricultural community by saying they were nomads until they conquered the land of canaan. That may be true but the laws that were given them were with the intent that they be applied in the land that God had given them. That was the whole purpose of God delivering them out of the bondage of slavery to Pharoah.
God was going to bring them into the land that He had promised to Abraham and his seed, but as I have said there is much symbolism here. It is literal, but it is symbolic of the promised land for all of God's children, namely, paradise in the world to come.As I have showed you the slavery that God allowed in the OT were judgments against His enemies and the enemies of His people. Judgment for the people that He annhilated was more severe because of their greater wickedness. Of those nations which were at war with the Nation Israel, God allowed the captives to be used as forced labor. From those heathen nations or from strangers who dwelt among them. He allowed the Nation of Israel to purchase their children and use them for forced labor. They did not have to sell their children.
The Nation of Israel was to be to the surrounding nations what the church is supposed to be in the NT, but God will not force anyone to repent and serve Him. He shows that He is a reality through His people, and the decision to serve Him must be a voluntary decision. He gives us a free will.
These so called heathen nations had heard about the judgment of God by the flood in the time of Noah, and they had heard about God parting the Red Sea as He delivered the Nation of Israel out of bondage in Egypt. These are events which should have caused them to repent from idolatry and serve the One True God. They didn't, therefore, the judgments. As slaves they were forced to work hard and if they were not saved while in captivity, they died in their sins, but they are dead. They are no more. No further judgment.
In the NT we hear of the judgment “the lake of fire” which is the second death for those not saved, and so, the judgment is more severe because we have the greater revelation of God's plan for our salvation. I am going to do what I can to let whomever will hear of the goodness and the severity of God.
But the scripture states:
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.But in spite of my effort the above scripture shows that some will reject God's love and be destroyed because they would not hear. It is dangerous when some are trying to draw people that are hearing and entering into the kingdom away from the faith. The Pharisees were doing the same. Anyway, there is a day of judgment coming. “Let he who has ears to hear”.
I won't sanitize anything Tim. I will give my understanding. I know God as my Father, and I love Him. If I don't understand something, I know that there is an explanation because I know Him and have seen His attributes in the Person of Jesus His Son and His Christ.
I appreciate what God has done for me, and what He does for me on a continual basis. My desire is for all to know him intimately as I do.
God Bless
Hello Stuart…
When Mandy (Not3in1) asked what do you seriously doubt, you answered with this:
Quote Everything. Which is why I believe what I believe is true. As soon as you know you are right, you are almost certainly wrong about many things. Notice the use of 'almost certainly' there! There are several bundaries beyond which we simply cannot know things. That is no concession to religious superstition because the religious are just as ignorant as anyone, except they don't have the honesty to admit it, they just use the 'I can't imagine it so god did it' nonsense.
Once you are uncertain you can start to work out how likely you are that you have learned the truth.
Your statements appear to be completely contradictory to each other. For example, how can you say that you DOUBT EVERYTHING… and yet in the next breath say “Which is why I believe what I believe is true”? If you doubt EVERYTHING, then why do you not doubt that statement of yours? Logically, if you DOUBT EVERYTHING then you really should be doubting that you doubt everything. Not only that, but if you DOUBT EVERYTHING, then why don't you doubt what you believe is true when you made the remark “Which is why I believe what I believe is true”?
You wrote “There are several bundaries beyond which we simply cannot know things”. If you doubt everything, why don't you doubt this as well?
You wrote: “That is no concession to religious superstition because the religious are just as ignorant as anyone…” If you doubt everything, why don't you doubt this as well?
In fact, why don't you doubt your belief that Christianity is superstition, if you doubt everything?
You wrote: “Once you are uncertain you can start to work out how likely you are that you have learned the truth”… well why don't you doubt this as well if you doubt everything?
Not only that, but if do you start “to work out how likely you are that you have learned the truth”… and begin to learn some truth… then why would you doubt everything?
It appears that with your approach, we can't ever know anything to be true because we doubt everything… even this very statement itself.
You also wrote these two statements:
“I think my ethics are better than your God's. For a start I have completely failed to commit genocide, and I don't even hate figs.”
and…
“Wrong. I'm less a sinner than your God because I am not guilty of mass murder like 'he' is. I dare say the same is true of you.”
First of all, it's not wrong to hate “fags” if you are English and talking about cigarettes. Notice how important it is to understand what words mean and the context they are written in?
Secondly, if you doubt EVERYTHING, then why don't you doubt that your ethics is better than God's?
But the main point I wanted to raise is that it appears these two statements merely beg the question of what makes something wrong in the first place. And that was the question you kept asking in this thread.
For example, you kept asking if slavery is wrong. Well, is it stuart? And if so, what ethical reasoning are you using to suggest that slavery is wrong.. .and how do we know your ethics is better than God's? You can't say that slavery is wrong and thus if God supports slavery, then He must be wrong because that doesn't tell anyone which ethical system is right or wrong in the first place.
How do you know slavery is wrong? And how do you know that your ethics is better than God's? You can't use your own ethics as evidence that your ethics is better than God… because that would beg the very question being asked… which is, how do we know your ethics is better than God?
And if you say that you know your ethics is better than God's because your ethics says that slavery is wrong and that hating homosexuals is wrong and that that genocide is wrong… this is still begging the question. How do you know that slavery is wrong? Or taht hating homosexuals is wrong? or that Genocide is wrong? Or even that child molestation and rape of a little girl under 5 years old is wrong?
What objective standard are you using? And how do you know it's objective and impartial and not a subjective and biased opinion? And is your objective standard absolute? And if so, how can there be absolute objective right and wrongs in a universe where no God exists?
Just asking
Respectfully
FrancisQuote (francis @ Aug. 03 2010,05:40) Your statements appear to be completely contradictory to each other. For example, how can you say that you DOUBT EVERYTHING… and yet in the next breath say “Which is why I believe what I believe is true”? If you doubt EVERYTHING, then why do you not doubt that statement of yours? Logically, if you DOUBT EVERYTHING then you really should be doubting that you doubt everything. Not only that, but if you DOUBT EVERYTHING, then why don't you doubt what you believe is true when you made the remark “Which is why I believe what I believe is true”?
Ha ha. Nice one.
I guess he opened himself to that.
I don't read all of his posts, but had I seen it, I would have made a meal of that too.Quote (francis @ Aug. 03 2010,05:40) How do you know slavery is wrong? And how do you know that your ethics is better than God's? You can't use your own ethics as evidence that your ethics is better than God… because that would beg the very question being asked… which is, how do we know your ethics is better than God? And if you say that you know your ethics is better than God's because your ethics says that slavery is wrong and that hating homosexuals is wrong and that that genocide is wrong… this is still begging the question. How do you know that slavery is wrong? Or taht hating homosexuals is wrong? or that Genocide is wrong? Or even that child molestation and rape of a little girl under 5 years old is wrong?
What objective standard are you using? And how do you know it's objective and impartial and not a subjective and biased opinion? And is your objective standard absolute? And if so, how can there be absolute objective right and wrongs in a universe where no God exists?
Good stuff.Please post more.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Aug. 03 2010,08:33) francis, Instead of attacking Stu, why don't you address the opening post of this thread?
francis just brought some life back to your thread,
lets not complain,francis did a good job
To whomever it may concern,
This thread asks an interesting question. Offhand I would state no as it is merely an employment contract that is canceled by the death of the employed.
The problem with slavery is it creates an environment where the slave owner or those he permits can abuse the slave without being held accountable. The basic idea is also that slaves are property and therefore people of baser character will believe it is not necessary to treat them with the respect due to a fellow human being.
I deal with pet rescue and I have seen what “good” pet owners due to their property that is living.
Mind you that these things can to a certain extent be allieviated by laws that are fairly and well enforced. In addition even when slavery is not involved people of baser character tend to abuse others.
Hypothetically a slave that is well fed and watered, has a home over their head with good sanitary facillities, has good access to basic medical care when needed, has sufficent education to perform the tasks assigned to him, and a way to meet his higher level needs is being treated ethically.
I assume that someone made an arrogant and ignorant comment about Scripture that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. The individual may assume that slavery is wrong as if it is not instead the lack of love for your neighbor that is evil. They then judged scripture based on their own lack of knowledge believing they were superior to the One whose words are written therein. Sometimes one must sit and learn from the true Expert and ask questions about those issues you do not understand and wait patiently for his answer.
I believe slavery was a way to take care of those in need as well as to hold convicts or those that were prisoners of war. Some misused the system as fraudsters do even to this day. Sometimes the misuse became epidemic.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 03 2010,20:40) Does the bible condone slavery?
If yes, where?
I don't know if condone is the correct word but it
certainly appears to accept the institution of slavery.NRSV) Exodus 21:2-6 When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be the master’s and he shall go out alone. But if the slave declares, “I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out a free person,” then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door of the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.[16]
NRSV) Leviticus 25:44-46 …it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property.[15]
NRSV) Exodus 21:20-21 When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.[17]
NRSV) Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling
NRSV) Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything
Tim
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