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Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2007,09:29) Quote
Maybe you would know? And if so, isn't this interesting? Thanks.Well, it's not really interesting to me, at least, not in the tone I believe you're taking. At Bethel, there's old pictures of them celebrating Christmas. We know they used to do this.
There was no “tone” I was simply interested in the fact that the organization that you are loyal to had changed their mind regarding Christmas. And I wondered what you thought about this. You must remember that you are our only representation of the JW religion. How you choose to answer your questions may or may not speak to other's. It may or may not beckon them to join you…….David, I have never mocked you. I would never pose questions to trap you or make fun of you. If I ask you a question, please consider it to be a genuine one. Thanks.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 21 2007,09:57) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 21 2007,09:11) Hi Morning Star: You make the following comment:
Quote The early Christians agree with Kejonn. But I feel that mostly stims from the fact that Mithra worship was still active. It was public knowledge, therefore participating in any revelry that day showed your agreement. Today, most people havent the foggiest Idea who Mithra is and nobody thinks Christians are agreeing or joining in with pagans. (well except those who are against Christmas because of their knowledge of history and feel celebrating it is evil)
Where can I find information relative to what the early Christians believed relative to this?
Thanks & God Bless
“The Apostolic Fathers” – a huge encyclopedia of their writings.Or just do alot of google searches containing the search words.
apostolic fathers christmas
christmas early christians
etc… etc…
Alot of the early church writings can actually be found on line.
Hi Morning Star:I've done a google search as you suggested and find just alot of opinions which try to condemn the celebration of Christmas because of it's pagan origin.
I find one article which states that Origen states that it should not be observed. I will have to search this out.
Maybe I've missed something in these searches. Thanks for your help.
God Bless
Quote Sorry David, you misunderstand. The first part of my post was the QUOTE that I was quoting! Ha! So, I didn't say “The Watchtower was exactly right!” it was the quote I wanted more information about. Sorry that wasn't clear.
I'm sorry for your misunderstanding again. You asked if this was an old Watchtower. Your quote itself said that it was from 1904. This was my point, not that you said it was right.Quote There was no “tone” I was simply interested in the fact that the organization that you are loyal to had changed their mind regarding Christmas. And I wondered what you thought about this. what I think about this is this: They are not bound to tradition. They have changed their teachings and beliefs on numerous things, this being one of them. This was especially so in the early days of their modern beginnings. There was a lot of human ideas that had to be left behind. It was hard to leave many of the things behind. Everything from the way meetings are conducted (now theocratically as opposed to democratically) to things like smoking being acceptalbe at one time to things like Christmas. The ability to see and accept mistakes is a great one, in my opinion. Humans are not perfect. The apostles were not perfect. No humans are. JW's have made errors, for certain. But I believe they are actually trying to continually fix any such errors, and not hold to any creeds or traditions of men.
david
Thank you, David.
Excellent explaination!
I am a firm believer in admitting one's mistakes and moving on (making corrections and moving on). It's the “forgetting what is behind and pressing forward” that Paul teaches. We can't hang on to the past, we can only press on towards the goal. If certain belief systems are keeping us from the goal – then we should let go of those belief systems. The JW's are a good example (although there are many religious organizations that could be counted with them) that teach certain beliefs as concrete and then change their minds later (the Catholic church being one of them). So, we must hold lightly to men's teachings and look to Scripture as our ultimate guide. That being said, I will continue to search out scripture that tells me I shouldn't celebrate Christmas.
I have let go of a number of beliefs that I was brought-up with. Truth comes to us all…..eventually!
Easter always was a big holiday in our Family when my Mother was alive. We would all get dressed up in our new Easter outfits and go to Church together and afterwards out to eat. After Dinner which was at Lunchtime, we would hide the childrens easter baskets and eggs. I have to say we always had a lot of fun. That was a Family Day. But the truth is it was wrong. God has opened our eyes to the truth and for that I am always thankful for.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi all,
My family and I celebrate the resurrection of Christ every year and plan to this Sunday as well. I am not even wanting to know about pagan this or pagan that. There is no power in the pagan traditions anyway so if I happen to do something that resembles a pagan tradition, well, I certainly don't do it to honor some pagan god or tradition. The first resurrection was a holy day, what happened on it changed the future of mankind. It is worth remembering always and making a get-to-gether annually to acknowledge the victory Christ won in a coporate way. It provides a good opportunity to gather as a family and thank the Lord together for His goodness and worship together. I say, the more holidays the better if they reflect and focus our attention on the Lord's goodness and what He has done. This Sunday I expect to be with my family and with a couple thousand other believers lifting our voices in praise for what Christ has done, no pagan tradition needs to stop that or we give power to that pagan tradition. It should have no control over us.Each one needs to be convinced in their own minds. God is good!
1 CORINTHIANS 10:20-22
“I say that the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God, and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons. You cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; you cannot be partaking of ‘the table of Jehovah’ and the table of demons. Or ‘are we inciting Jehovah to jealousy’? We are not stronger than he is, are we?”2 CORINTHIANS 6:14-17
“Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Béli·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’””What harmony is there between true Christianity and lies or paganism? None.
What sharing does true worship have with lies?
None.JER 10:2,3
“Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the heathen are dismayed by them. For the customs of the people are vain”MARK 7:9
“Adroitly you set aside the commandment of God in order to retain your tradition.”I don't think a child's egg hunt is in anyway a sacrifice to the infernal. That many traditions have some start in ancient pagan festivals hardly qualifies them as evil. I think we should be more concerned with crass commercialization of our celebrations then worrying that they happen close to a solstice or equinox that ancient druids or shamans thought significant. It smacks of paranoia, I think there are many more pressing concerns to worry over then we got the day wrong. Also for that matter pagan does not equate with demonic. Many pagan's either worshiped God's creation (nature) confusing this with the Creator himself or worshiped phantom imaginary creations of their own minds. They were our ancestor's and they did not necessarily worship the devil or the demonic. Evil exists yes, but let's not look for it in everything, the Easter Bunny is not Moloch or Belial it is a fantasy like Big Bird and the Cookie Monster (oh wait perhaps these are secretly demonic agents too, better get rid of that Elmo Doll).
Quote I don't think a child's egg hunt is in anyway a sacrifice to the infernal. Nor do I. But why would any servant of Jehovah willingly adopt and mimmick pagan practices that God abhors?
Quote That many traditions have some start in ancient pagan festivals hardly qualifies them as evil. While those things may be thousands of years ago to you, God saw firsthand all these things. And to him, a thousand years are as one day. If he hates something, why would you ever want to imitate that thing?
Quote the Easter Bunny is not Moloch
No, but the name easter comes from the name of a false god, does it not? (despite the kj putting that word into it's translation)I have an idea. Let's take the worship of false gods (something the true God absolutely hates) and combine it with the death of his very son.
I'm sure without any question, that Jehovah detests this. Scripture is clear.
Quote Big Bird and the Cookie Monster
While gods like “ashtarte” mean nothing to you, I assure you they were considered real to the pagans who worshiped them. And if God considered such things detestable, then why adopt such things into your life, or worse yet, try to combine them with true worship?Quote (david @ Mar. 21 2008,11:09) Quote I don't think a child's egg hunt is in anyway a sacrifice to the infernal. Nor do I. But why would any servant of Jehovah willingly adopt and mimmick pagan practices that God abhors?
Quote That many traditions have some start in ancient pagan festivals hardly qualifies them as evil. While those things may be thousands of years ago to you, God saw firsthand all these things. And to him, a thousand years are as one day. If he hates something, why would you ever want to imitate that thing?
Quote the Easter Bunny is not Moloch
No, but the name easter comes from the name of a false god, does it not? (despite the kj putting that word into it's translation)I have an idea. Let's take the worship of false gods (something the true God absolutely hates) and combine it with the death of his very son.
I'm sure without any question, that Jehovah detests this. Scripture is clear.
Quote Big Bird and the Cookie Monster
While gods like “ashtarte” mean nothing to you, I assure you they were considered real to the pagans who worshiped them. And if God considered such things detestable, then why adopt such things into your life, or worse yet, try to combine them with true worship?
David I agree whole heartily. Whatever God hates we are to hate. It is a false religion and we are not to take part in it, it is as simple as that.
Peace and Love Mrs.David,
Are we to change the names of the days of the week as well? Tuesday comes from Tyr, Wednesday from Wotan, Thursday Thor, Friday Frey, Saturday Saturn. I suppose we should get rid of the months of March and June as they connect with Mars and Juno? I suppose that Thor and Hercules are fallen angels or demons also? Astarte was a phoenecian goddess of love and fertility, in Jewish mythology, She is referred to as Ashtoreth, supposedly interpreted as a female demon of lust. Other have associated her with the Greco-Roman Aphrodite/Venus. No one calls Venus a demon or anything other then myth. I don't know of anyone still worshipping Astarte in any of her assumed guises. I don't view our pagan ancestors as demon worshipers, primitive and ignorant yes, but devil worshippers no. That some of their names and traditions got carried forward to us is only natural and I don't think anyone even associates Astarte with Easter much less offers worship and praise. The Easter Bunny is total fantasy and is not even associated with Christ much less evil. It is just a tradition of spring like a may pole. If any real demon has found it's way into our religious holidays it would be Mammon and our want for materialism in spiritual matters and that would happen no matter what day we picked.
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 21 2008,23:30) David, Are we to change the names of the days of the week as well? Tuesday comes from Tyr, Wednesday from Wotan, Thursday Thor, Friday Frey, Saturday Saturn. I suppose we should get rid of the months of March and June as they connect with Mars and Juno? I suppose that Thor and Hercules are fallen angels or demons also? Astarte was a phoenecian goddess of love and fertility, in Jewish mythology, She is referred to as Ashtoreth, supposedly interpreted as a female demon of lust. Other have associated her with the Greco-Roman Aphrodite/Venus. No one calls Venus a demon or anything other then myth. I don't know of anyone still worshipping Astarte in any of her assumed guises. I don't view our pagan ancestors as demon worshipers, primitive and ignorant yes, but devil worshippers no. That some of their names and traditions got carried forward to us is only natural and I don't think anyone even associates Astarte with Easter much less offers worship and praise. The Easter Bunny is total fantasy and is not even associated with Christ much less evil. It is just a tradition of spring like a may pole. If any real demon has found it's way into our religious holidays it would be Mammon and our want for materialism in spiritual matters and that would happen no matter what day we picked.
Cato! We do not have any control over what Society has when it comes to worldly things. You are right that they are all pagan changed by the Catholic Church. But if we can change something by not keeping it, we should. And not keeping Christmas and Easter is days that we can.
Let me ask you, knowing that these days derive from the pagans, knowing that God hates them, why do you think it is alright for you to think that God would aprove of it. Do you think that He would aprove? I don't think so. God is the same yesterday and tomorrow. If He hated it yesterday which He did, He will hate it today ad tomorrow.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 22 2008,00:08) Let me ask you, knowing that these days derive from the pagans, knowing that God hates them, why do you think it is alright for you to think that God would aprove of it. Do you think that He would aprove? I don't think so. God is the same yesterday and tomorrow. If He hated it yesterday which He did, He will hate it today ad tomorrow. Peace and Love Mrs.
There is general agreement that the word “Pagan” comes from the Latin word “paganus.” Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the precise meaning of the word in the fifth century CE and before. Most modern Pagan sources interpret the word to have meant “rustic,” “hick,” or “country bumpkin” — a pejorative term. The implication was that Christians used the term to ridicule country folk who tenaciously held on to what the Christians considered old-fashioned, outmoded beliefs. Those in the country were much slower in adopting the new religion of Christianity than were the city folks. They still followed Mithraism, various mystery religions, etc., long after those in urban areas had converted.
Some believe that in the early Roman Empire, “paganus” came to mean “civilian” as opposed to “military.” Christians often called themselves “miles Christi” (Soldiers of Christ). The non-Christians became “pagani” — non-soldiers or civilians. No denigration would be implied.A Pagan in the OT is essentially any non-Jew, in the NT it is any non-Christian gentile, in modern definition it relates to religious beliefs that do not belong to any of the main religions of the world. So in the OT all references to pagans which are uniformly pejoritive, means essentially, foreign. In the NT it is nearly the same except it excludes the new Christian gentiles.
So when you say God hates them (Pagans) you are saying that before Christ he hated all non-jews and after Christ just the non-believing, non jews. I don't think so. Personally I find the whole favored people idea a bit incredulous for the Creator of the entire universe and not just one tribe of human kind. I don't think God is offended by relics of myth, but rather evil in our hearts and thought's today.
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 22 2008,02:59) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 22 2008,00:08) Let me ask you, knowing that these days derive from the pagans, knowing that God hates them, why do you think it is alright for you to think that God would aprove of it. Do you think that He would aprove? I don't think so. God is the same yesterday and tomorrow. If He hated it yesterday which He did, He will hate it today ad tomorrow. Peace and Love Mrs.
There is general agreement that the word “Pagan” comes from the Latin word “paganus.” Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the precise meaning of the word in the fifth century CE and before. Most modern Pagan sources interpret the word to have meant “rustic,” “hick,” or “country bumpkin” — a pejorative term. The implication was that Christians used the term to ridicule country folk who tenaciously held on to what the Christians considered old-fashioned, outmoded beliefs. Those in the country were much slower in adopting the new religion of Christianity than were the city folks. They still followed Mithraism, various mystery religions, etc., long after those in urban areas had converted.
Some believe that in the early Roman Empire, “paganus” came to mean “civilian” as opposed to “military.” Christians often called themselves “miles Christi” (Soldiers of Christ). The non-Christians became “pagani” — non-soldiers or civilians. No denigration would be implied.A Pagan in the OT is essentially any non-Jew, in the NT it is any non-Christian gentile, in modern definition it relates to religious beliefs that do not belong to any of the main religions of the world. So in the OT all references to pagans which are uniformly pejoritive, means essentially, foreign. In the NT it is nearly the same except it excludes the new Christian gentiles.
So when you say God hates them (Pagans) you are saying that before Christ he hated all non-jews and after Christ just the non-believing, non jews. I don't think so. Personally I find the whole favored people idea a bit incredulous for the Creator of the entire universe and not just one tribe of human kind. I don't think God is offended by relics of myth, but rather evil in our hearts and thought's today.
Who agrees it is not God, again He hates it, and as a Christian we are tod what God want us to do. If you do or not is up to you. But what is written, is written that my Friend you can not erase. You xcan belief the scriptures or deny it.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 22 2008,09:02) Quote (Cato @ Mar. 22 2008,02:59) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 22 2008,00:08) Let me ask you, knowing that these days derive from the pagans, knowing that God hates them, why do you think it is alright for you to think that God would aprove of it. Do you think that He would aprove? I don't think so. God is the same yesterday and tomorrow. If He hated it yesterday which He did, He will hate it today ad tomorrow. Peace and Love Mrs.
There is general agreement that the word “Pagan” comes from the Latin word “paganus.” Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the precise meaning of the word in the fifth century CE and before. Most modern Pagan sources interpret the word to have meant “rustic,” “hick,” or “country bumpkin” — a pejorative term. The implication was that Christians used the term to ridicule country folk who tenaciously held on to what the Christians considered old-fashioned, outmoded beliefs. Those in the country were much slower in adopting the new religion of Christianity than were the city folks. They still followed Mithraism, various mystery religions, etc., long after those in urban areas had converted.
Some believe that in the early Roman Empire, “paganus” came to mean “civilian” as opposed to “military.” Christians often called themselves “miles Christi” (Soldiers of Christ). The non-Christians became “pagani” — non-soldiers or civilians. No denigration would be implied.A Pagan in the OT is essentially any non-Jew, in the NT it is any non-Christian gentile, in modern definition it relates to religious beliefs that do not belong to any of the main religions of the world. So in the OT all references to pagans which are uniformly pejoritive, means essentially, foreign. In the NT it is nearly the same except it excludes the new Christian gentiles.
So when you say God hates them (Pagans) you are saying that before Christ he hated all non-jews and after Christ just the non-believing, non jews. I don't think so. Personally I find the whole favored people idea a bit incredulous for the Creator of the entire universe and not just one tribe of human kind. I don't think God is offended by relics of myth, but rather evil in our hearts and thought's today.
Who agrees it is not God, again He hates it, and as a Christian we are tod what God want us to do. If you do or not is up to you. But what is written, is written that my Friend you can not erase. You xcan belief the scriptures or deny it.Peace and Love Mrs.
So you are saying God hated all non-jews before Christ, and and now hates those non-Jews who are not believers. That is a very dark view of the Almighty.
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