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Hi david,
I am sure Satan celebrated the death of Christ for a while too.
It seems there are other SACRED traditional commemorations too. What are they?If all the pagans in the world stopped celebrating christmas would it make them any less pagan?
Quote Whew. At last clear guidelines. What I noticed wasn't that this is “how not to celebrate Christmas” as you said.
I noticed this article rightly says that respect and consideration should be shown for family members who do celebrate such holidays.
Quote If I would break bread on Dec. 25th with my family would that mean that I'm worshipping a sun god? Why would it Kenrch? Unless you called your family together BECAUSE its Christmas and you don't normally break bread but you decided to that day BECAUSE it's Christmas. In that case, it would seem, wouldn't it, that you are doing things specifically BECAUSE it's Christmas.
But to eat, as you normally do, or to do anything normal that is normally done, just because it's Dec 25th…. it means nothing.
Wouldn not the motive behind it mean everything.
Why do people put up Christmas decorations on that day? They may say: “Oh, it has nothing do do with whatever, those ancient festivals.” But of course, it does. It might not mean anything to them, but what does it mean to God? And if their motive for putting up those lights, for example, has nothing to do with christmas, why do they put them up at that time of the year, when the ancient pagans were doing similar things?There is obviously nothing wrong with eating on Christmas or any other day. Why would anyone think there is?
Quote Hi david,
I am sure Satan celebrated the death of Christ for a while too.
It seems there are other SACRED traditional commemorations too. What are they?If all the pagans in the world stopped celebrating christmas would it make them any less pagan?
Problems reading Nick?
“More than 14 million attended the 1999 annual commemoration of Christ's death, the religion's most sacred observance”
I could look up the word “commemoration” for you if you like.
Commemorate, Nick, means to “honor the memory of” something.
I guess honoring the memory of Christ's death is a horrifically bad thing in your mind. “Let's not remember it,” hey Nick.
“Keep doing this in remembrance of me.”–Jesus.
You are twisted Nick and your words are twisted.
You made me sad a lot of the time. It feels like Satan is talking right through you.
Hi david,
Since observation of christmas is according to the personal motives as you tell us
then why are you so accusing of others whose motives you do not know?I didn't speak of the “personal motives” behind the “observation of Christmas.”
Motives don't matter when one goes against God's desires. If it is wrong, it is still wrong no matter how you justify your thinking.
What I actually said was:Quote But to eat, as you normally do, or to do anything normal that is normally done, just because it's Dec 25th…. it means nothing.
Would not the motive behind it mean everything.Hey, if you have an evergreen in your house all year long, and I know this and come over on Dec 25 and see that same evergreen, I'm not going to think you celebrate Christmas because you have this tree.
One person can eat a Christmas dinner on Dec 25 because he is celebrating Christmas.
Another can eat a very similar meal…because he is hungry.What is a persons motives (reasons) for doing anything Christmasy?
People put up lights because it's tradition (tradition of pagans carried down)
People put up a tree and holly and misltoe or celebrate it on that specific day because it's tradition. They're daddy celebrated it. His father and his father….all the way back to …. druids. Well, not really. They did worship evergreens though around that time of year.What are peoples motives? Why do they do what they do?
Largely, tradition.
God doesn't like certain things pertaining to Christmas. But it doesn't matter. It's tradition.
“Adroitly you set aside the commandment of God in order to retain YOUR tradition.” (mark 7:9)
People may say they have good motives and they may have actually convinced themselves of that. Remember, many would say: “lord, Lord,” thinking they were doing right. Similarly, with Christmas, people may think that syncretism can be looked past if they claim to be honouring Jesus and avoiding this and celebrating this pagan holiday in their own way.
Quote (david @ Feb. 13 2007,22:27) Quote If I would break bread on Dec. 25th with my family would that mean that I'm worshipping a sun god? Why would it Kenrch? Unless you called your family together BECAUSE its Christmas and you don't normally break bread but you decided to that day BECAUSE it's Christmas. In that case, it would seem, wouldn't it, that you are doing things specifically BECAUSE it's Christmas.
But to eat, as you normally do, or to do anything normal that is normally done, just because it's Dec 25th…. it means nothing.
Wouldn not the motive behind it mean everything.
Why do people put up Christmas decorations on that day? They may say: “Oh, it has nothing do do with whatever, those ancient festivals.” But of course, it does. It might not mean anything to them, but what does it mean to God? And if their motive for putting up those lights, for example, has nothing to do with christmas, why do they put them up at that time of the year, when the ancient pagans were doing similar things?There is obviously nothing wrong with eating on Christmas or any other day. Why would anyone think there is?
David you didn't adress this statement.“Paul says hey you know who's God and who's Lord so the food offered to idols is just food. So for those who know the Lord December 25 is just another day and that's the way I treat it”.
It doesn't seem to bother God if we eat food offered to false Gods.
There is no sun god. So why would it bother you if some people gathered on Dec 25th. Truth is there is no commandment to celebrate Christs birth, is there? Would it be alright if they chose to celebrate Christs birth on Dec 24th?1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in all men that knowledge: but some, being used until now to the idol, eat as of a thing sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
If you don't know that there is no sun god then your conscience would bother you if you went to anyone's house on Dec 25th knowing that they chose to celebrate Christs birth on that day of the sun, believing that there is a sun god then to you these people are worshiping the sun god.
1Co 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.
Is not your hatered of a particular day a doctrine of men, since you know there is no sun god.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.
I H L,
kenrch
I quote the following not because I want to get into any kind of discussion, but because Valentine's day has just passed:
The World Book Encyclopedia informs us:
“Valentine’s Day comes on the feast day of two different Christian martyrs named Valentine. But the customs connected with the day . . . probably come from an ancient Roman festival called Lupercalia which took place every February 15. The festival honored Juno, the Roman goddess of women and marriage, and Pan, the god of nature.”
—(1973), Vol. 20, p. 204.To david.
Abstaining on worldly or pagan holidays to serve a man-made organisation is pointless.
Serve God and those that belong to him.
Quit promoting cults, denominations, and men.
Start serving, speaking, teaching, and encouraging people about God.
A sheep can look white and clean, but when it snows it looks filthy.
You can make yourself and your organisation look good when you highlight what the pagans do and other denominations such as Catholics do, but compared to God's righteousness your works are filthy rags.
The we are holier than you, or our organisation is better than your one, proves that you are a mere man, david.
I would give you respect if you encouraged the Body of Christ, but instead you serve a man-made organisation that is a relatively recent invention when compared to the Body of Christ.
If we do all for Christ then arguing about times and dates is really irrelevant.
The light shines through darkness. There is no point in trying to dispel darkness without light.
Quote Quit promoting cults, denominations, and men. T8, I have never promoted “cults” “denominations” or “men.”
The question someone asked on this thread was: “Is celebrating Christmas or easter ok?”
If you, like some, think it is not worthy of discussion, then don't discuss.Quote You can make yourself and your organisation look good when you highlight what the pagans do and other denominations such as Catholics do, but compared to God's righteousness your works are filthy rags.
So you think that my “organization” “lookgood” when I point out the truth about Christmas? You must be the only one on here who believes that.
I'm sorry if you see the negative and think that I'm trying to glorify some works. I'm trying to state the truth about Christmas.Many think that if they celebrate a pagan holiday in “their own way” it's fine in the eyes of God. Scrpture gives no indication of this false belief.
If I speak the truth, why do you have to attack?Quote The we are holier than you, or our organisation is better than your one, proves that you are a mere man, david.
I don't remember having a “holier” than thou feeling. I remember and still have a “this is the truth” about Christmas thoughts.Quote I would give you respect if you encouraged the Body of Christ, but instead you serve a man-made organisation that is a relatively recent invention when compared to the Body of Christ. Are you trying to bribe me with your respect?
RIDICULOUS!Question: Was Christianity a “recent invention” when compared to God's people of that time, the Jews? Many back then would have said “yes.” Sadly, they would have had the wrong attitude, and missed the truth because of their pride or traditions or wanting of self-reliance, or whatever.
Quote If we do all for Christ then arguing about times and dates is really irrelevant.
Could not the same be said about every subject on this site? ARe you about to shut it down then?David,
Why are JW's against birthdays? After all they're good for you; the more you have, the longer you live…
Not making fun of you David, I believe a little humor is good once in a while, hope you took it that way.
Wm
An infinitely better question Seekingtruth is:
“Why were the earliest Christians against birthdays”?
The answer to that question is in the Bible and history.
Quote After all they're good for you; the more you have, the longer you live…
True enough!Why weren't the earliest Christians called “Jehovah Witnesses”?
OK that is another thread.
Also is it in the bible that Christians were against birthdays?
I can't say that I have read that one if it is.Or is it written elsewhere?
Thx
Quote Why weren't the earliest Christians called “Jehovah Witnesses”?
They were called many things. They were witnesses of Christ and God. It's interesting that the greek word for witness means Martr, someone who dies because of their conviction. Many of the earliest Christians were witnesses in this sense, as well as witnesses in that they told the truth or what they knew about God and his kingdom and Christ Jesus.
And much like Jesus who made his Father's name known, the earliest Christians would have followed Jesus example and not Jewish superstition. They would have made Jehovah's name known.MICAH 4:5
“For all the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever.”Also is it in the bible that Christians were against birthdays?
I can't say that I have read that one if it is.No, just in most history books, encyclopedias, etc.
But the REASON why IS found in the Bible.Quote (t8 @ Feb. 21 2007,04:42) To david. Abstaining on worldly or pagan holidays to serve a man-made organisation is pointless.
Serve God and those that belong to him.
Quit promoting cults, denominations, and men.
Start serving, speaking, teaching, and encouraging people about God.
A sheep can look white and clean, but when it snows it looks filthy.
You can make yourself and your organisation look good when you highlight what the pagans do and other denominations such as Catholics do, but compared to God's righteousness your works are filthy rags.
The we are holier than you, or our organisation is better than your one, proves that you are a mere man, david.
I would give you respect if you encouraged the Body of Christ, but instead you serve a man-made organisation that is a relatively recent invention when compared to the Body of Christ.
If we do all for Christ then arguing about times and dates is really irrelevant.
The light shines through darkness. There is no point in trying to dispel darkness without light.
Hi,I will admit that I am relatively new to this forum. I have tried to catch up on many of the threads, but there is a lot of reading to do. I am curious about one thing though.
In everything that I have read that was written by David,
I have never seen that he was serving the organization of Jehovah Witnesses instead of serving Christ.David is doing what the organization teaches that he should do in order to serve Christ. And more faithfully than most Christians I might add, But that is no different than what other Christians do in whatever denomination they practice Christianity. There are many other denominations that practice some pretty bizarre rituals and we still consider them to be Christians. Even if we ourselves would not dream of handling poisonous snakes or drinking poison.
Denominations have formed over such mundane differences as, how we should be baptized, or how communion should be taken. Even over what we should call God.
We can show scriptures supporting each side of every argument. And in every case, everyone thinks that they hold the real truth.The real truth is that until Jesus comes back, we will never know the real truth. So we have to live in the hope and knowledge that the Holy Spirit is guideing us in the truth that God wants for us to know.
Tim
Quote The real truth is that until Jesus comes back, we will never know the real truth.
So when Jesus said: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.” (John 8:31,32)he was only speaking to those of that time?
“If you remain in my word,” those who remain in the teachings of Jesus and actually follow the Bible, for real, do know the truth, or so Jesus said.
Jehovah's word is truth. (John 17:17)
Sorry, I started near the end.
Hello Timothy.thankyou.
Despite T8 saying roughly 200 times the opposite, you state:
In everything that I have read that was written by David,
I have never seen that he was serving the organization of Jehovah Witnesses instead of serving Christ.David is doing what the organization teaches that he should do in order to serve Christ.
thankyou for . . . defending me, I guess. I'm somewhat in shock, as it happens so rarely.
Quote (david @ Mar. 09 2007,09:02) Quote The real truth is that until Jesus comes back, we will never know the real truth.
So when Jesus said: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.” (John 8:31,32)he was only speaking to those of that time?
Hi David,No, He was speaking to people of all times. I am only saying that there are obviously countless thousands of people who believe that they remain in his word, but seem to understand different truths. Do we not see that right here on this forum?
Some of us will obviously only see the real truth when we can talk to Jesus face to face.
You are welcome.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 09 2007,12:16) Quote (david @ Mar. 09 2007,09:02) Quote The real truth is that until Jesus comes back, we will never know the real truth.
So when Jesus said: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.” (John 8:31,32)he was only speaking to those of that time?
Hi David,No, He was speaking to people of all times. I am only saying that there are obviously countless thousands of people who believe that they remain in his word, but seem to understand different truths. Do we not see that right here on this forum?
Some of us will obviously only see the real truth when we can talk to Jesus face to face.
You are welcome.
Tim
Hi Tim. I was just reading your reply to David regarding the teachings of Jesus. You said He was speaking to people of all times. I think that this is the opinion of most, but scripture says that Jesus is still teaching under the old covenant, and this is to the Jews only, the chosen people. The rest, gentiles, where not included until after the death and resurection of Christ when He, the Messiah, was rejected by them agian. Only Pauls teachings are for the Gentiles, granted to him by Jesus.
See scripture Ro.15:8…Jesus for the the circumcision.
Ro.15:16…Paul for the Nations (Gentiles)
Aslo Mat.15:24…and He (Jesus) said, “I was not commisioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Isreal”.
I believe a lot of understanding of scripture would cleared up if this is understood. I'm not wanting to be critical of you, let me know your opinion of this please.
Blessings, Jerry.Quote (Kupchuk @ Mar. 16 2007,21:16) Hi Tim. I was just reading your reply to David regarding the teachings of Jesus. You said He was speaking to people of all times. I think that this is the opinion of most, but scripture says that Jesus is still teaching under the old covenant, and this is to the Jews only, the chosen people. The rest, gentiles, where not included until after the death and resurection of Christ when He, the Messiah, was rejected by them agian. Only Pauls teachings are for the Gentiles, granted to him by Jesus.
See scripture Ro.15:8…Jesus for the the circumcision.
Ro.15:16…Paul for the Nations (Gentiles)
Aslo Mat.15:24…and He (Jesus) said, “I was not commisioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Isreal”.
I believe a lot of understanding of scripture would cleared up if this is understood. I'm not wanting to be critical of you, let me know your opinion of this please.
Blessings, Jerry.
Hi Jerry,Of course what you say is chronologically correct in my opinion.
The point that I was trying to make was that the words of Jesus, regardless of to whom he was speaking at the time, were meant for the benefit of people of all races and of all ages.God be with you,
Tim
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