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Nick,
Paul says ” we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be …”
The only when that he mention is when the sheep and the goats are present before our Lord Jesus Christ.
we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
Kerwin.
When we are absent from the body are we present with the Lord or not?
Is there a third stage not mentioned here? What is it?
Instantly?
I cannot say for sure. It seems to be that way when you read a number of scriptures.
I do know for sure that the dead in Christ rise before them which are alive and remain. So why do they not rise at the same time?
We are not told specifically how much before though, in that scripture at least. It doesn’t negate being instantly with the Lord.
And if death is no consciousness at all including no sleep, then either way, we will be with the Lord straight after we die from our perspective.
The only way this is not true is if we die, we sleep and are conscious during that sleep.
But why the two timings?
The dead are ahead of the living when they meet the Lord.
Why is that?
Surely it would happen to all in the same moment, but it says otherwise.
It says in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. And that the dead rise before.
So it is quick, and the dead precede the living. Thus we cannot rule out that those who are away from the body are present with the Lord.Given that the timing for the living is different to the dead, it fits with the idea that the dead are with Christ now.
Hi T8,
You think so?
There is a RESURRECTION of the dead.
And it occurs in the twinkling of an eye, but with an order.
So there is no evidence that some have already risen before that day.
If time does not mean much to an unlimited God, then why cannot those who are absent from the body be with the Lord Jesus in eternity and then at some point, all will meet the Lord in the clouds here near Earth. For all we know, all time could be a moment with God. Or a thousand years as one day. What if he took all with him in one day?
You said it yourself, “Time is not relevant”.
So if it is not relevant, then from an eternal point of view, the dead could be with Christ now in eternity.
Perhaps we rely to much on our earthly perspective? Even Einstein said time works differently in the physical universe depending on your speed.
All I know is that the dead precede the living and the graves of many broke open when Jesus rose from the grave.
We also know that if he was raised that he will take others with him.
But as you say, even if it happens at the end and the dead are not sleeping or if sleeping is an unconscious state, then when we die, we will awake immediately and be with the Lord from our perspective.
I am certainly not going to say that the dead are not with Christ though.
Hi t8,
There is no mention of men being in heaven and then returned to the air of earth.
If we have the Spirit of Christ then we are already with him now, and with him in the heavenly realms.
col 3.1-3
T8,
When we are absent from the body are we present with the Lord or not?
Is there a third stage not mentioned here? What is it?My point is that is does not say “When we are absent from the body are we present with the Lord” but instead says “we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” Of the two choices he gives he is stating that he prefers to be with the Lord even if it means he has no body.
Hi ,
We know that the new heavenly body is given at the time of resurrection.
We know we will not be naked.
So we wait in sleep till the trumpet calls.
Hi t8,
Yes some tombs were opened and some were raised.
But there is record of what happened with them
2 Corinthians 5:4
For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.This happens at the resurrection
My point is that is does not say “When we are absent from the body are we present with the Lord” but instead says “we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” Of the two choices he gives he is stating that he prefers to be with the Lord even if it means he has no body.
So there is a another state or interim stage. No body and not with Christ?
This happens at the resurrection
How long does the resurrection last? The dead rise first then we who are alive and remain.
What proof is there that it is a matter of seconds or moments between the two.
And why the need for that?
So if you cannot answer that, then you also cannot say for sure that the dead do not rise way before those that are alive and remain.
After all, you say the Day of the LORD, but a day to God is like a thousand years and you said something along the lines that time is irrelevant to a timeless God.
In one day, God created the dry land, continent/s above the water and large bodies of water were called “seas” and the ground named “land.”
In another day, he created all plant life both large and small.
Was this the twinkling of an eye? Did it take a thousands years per day? Was it a millenium? Does it matter to a timeless infinite God?
So it is possible that in the twinkling of an eye refers to the amount of time that we are changed from mortal to immortal and if we do not have the info to know the difference with the time between the dead who precede the living, then no one here can absolutely say that the dead in Christ are not with Christ now.
After all, how can the term “Dead in Christ” mean they are not with CHRIST and yet be DEAD? They must be with Christ or in him surely.
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