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Seeking said:
Quote So we are to believe they all are erroneous and we can only rely on the ones who say it the way you like? Seeking,
First, I can't figure out what you trying to prove from Barnes. He commented on Acts 6:1 and said that there were two classes of Jews, the Hebrews and the Hellenists (or Greeks). Then he cross referenced that with John 7:35. So he was clearly using that passage as support for the fact that there were two classes of Jews. But you think that the “literal” meaning of the word “Greek” which Barnes also gave cancels out the way the word was otherwise employed. This is foolishness!Second, about Acts 22:21:
Quote Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles (or nations).
All the translations of Acts 22:21 are wrong! I can prove it! Do you remember when Christ began His Galilean ministry according to the prophet Isaiah?Quote Now when Jesus heard that John was in prison, he departed to galilee. And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, the regions of Zebulun and Naphtali, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet Isaiah saying, “The land of Zebulun and the land of Napthali, By the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles” (Matt. 4:15). The word “ethnos” is erroneously translated “Gentiles” in Matthew 4. It should be rendered “nations” and should be understood as referring to the nations of Israel. Isaiah's prophecy had nothing to do with non-Israelites. And Peter recounted Christ's Galilean ministry and said that Jesus went only to the areas where the Jews lived,
Quote Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I preceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ-He is Lord of all-that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth…. And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the LAND OF THE JEWS and in Jerusalem….” (Acts 10:34-40) Now there it is!! Peter clearly said that Christ's Galilean ministry was to the “children of Israel” and that it occurred in “the LAND of the Jews and Jerusalem.” He said that “we are witnesses”. Yet pastors and teachers proceed on erroneous translation and say that Christ's Galilean mimistry was to the Gentiles. This cannot be! Peter said that Christ's Galilean ministry was to Israel. And Jesus Himself said,
Quote I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel(Matt. 15:24) JESUS WAS STILL DOING HIS GALILEAN MINISTRY WHEN HE SAID THIS!! IF JESUS WENT TO GENTILES THEN HE WAS EITHER CONFUSED OR DISOBEDIENT!
Explain this Seeking. Explain how the translations can be correct when they translate the word as “Gentiles” in Matthew 4. While preaching and teaching in Galilee Jesus said that He was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And Peter confirmed this by saying that in His Galilean ministry Jesus gave the word to “the children of Israel” in “the land of the Jews” (Acts 10).
The same is true in Acts 22:21. It's all erroneous translation. I have the Bible's OWN HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS as proof against the translations. My proof is conclusive!
Seeking said:
Quote Remember, you don't like it when folks don't answer your questions. For a final request – WHEN DID PAUL FINALLY TAKE THE “FAITH ALONE” GOSPEL TO THE GENTILES (ETHNOS THAT WERE NOT JEWS)? I never said that Paul took the faith alone gospel to the Gentiles. That is your belief. Paul ministered only to the nations of Israel and all His epistles are addressed to them only. The taking of the faith alone gospel to the Gentiles was by the post-apostolic church. All the remnant of Israel from that generation had to come into salvation before one Gentile could come in.
When the captain of a sinking ship orders his crew to gather all women and children into safety FIRST he does not mean that men are to be gathered also. He means that men are to be gathered AFTERWARDS. Likewise, Paul said “to the Jew FIRST.” Therefore, the gathering of Gentiles into the covenant was AFTERWARDS, that is, it was post-apostolic.
You have no evidence that Gentiles were commanded to be baptized because the apostles never took the gospel to them. Jesus commanded them to go only to the lose sheep of the house of Israel.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 03 2009,03:46) Quote I never said that Paul took the faith alone gospel to the Gentiles. That is your belief. Paul ministered only to the nations of Israel and all His epistles are addressed to them only. The taking of the faith alone gospel to the Gentiles was by the post-apostolic church. All the remnant of israel from that generation had to come into salvation before one gentle could come in. Absolutely false! After the coming of the promised Holy Spirit,
who would lead into all truth, the Apostles were released to go into non-Israelite nations. Here is how Jesus put it:Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria , and to the end of the earth.”
You know the rest of the story:
Act 8:5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that
Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ , they were baptized, both men and women
Another absolutely false statement you made-
Quote Jesus said:Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter into the city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt. 10:5-6) If they went to Gentiles in the book of Acts then they were disobedient to their Lord.
Rather, the truth is – Either they were disobedient to there Lord or you totally misunderstand the Lord's directions to them and the appropriate timing of those directions and what would consistute disobedience on their part.
I go with, the apostles understood and followed the Lord's directions clearly and precisely. They went to Samaria, preached Jesus in Samaria, and baptizied in Samaria –
That is in accordance with the great historian Luke.
Quote First, I can't figure out what you trying to prove from Barnes. Nothing! That debate could go on forever. I do hope you will not attempt to interject an “Ethnos” difficulty with the Samaritans. They were arch enemies of the Jews.
Quote You have no evidence that Gentiles were commanded to be baptized because the apostles never took the gospel to them. Jesus commanded them to go only to the lose sheep of the house of Israel. You can quit with this any time now because you are biblically inaccurate –
Act 1:2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses
in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”They were sent. They went! Samaria, a non-Jewish people of a non-Jewish religion. The preached and when they were believed they baptized – non-Jewish people.
Seeking ………The apostles were commissioned to go to the lost Sheep of the house of Israel, not to the gentiles as Jesus specifically told them to do. Galilee was in the Provence of the gentiles, but a large part of the Lost Sheep of Israel were living there and this is where Jesus was preaching , He was (ONLY) commissioned to the House of Israel, no one else, as He said He was. They have found new evidence that the lost house of Israel were pushed up into the area of Caspian sea and Asia even where the Seven churches in Revelations were and eventual wound up in England and Scotland and Europe , known as Anglo Saxons, and Celts . The word Saxons Comes from sons of Isaac and was a identifier of the House of Israel There are so amazing things being found out now about the migration of the House of Israel. There are far more Israelite descendent's them people even begin to realize.
Anyway seeking i think , thinker may be right on this subject. Paul was not i believe instructing the gentiles to be water baptized.
peace ………………………………..gene
G,
Sounds like WCOG teaching.
So when Jesus shared his anointing in Mt 10 do you think that forever limited the message to jews?NIck………This has nothing to do with the wwog teachings this is Something that they have just recently discovered . I was reading it last night. It has to do with the discovery of linguistics professors who have traced the languages back to there sources and How they have changed over the year. Ill see if i can find it again and post the site for you. I think this time they really have discovered the trail of the Lost House of Israel, Those ten tribes represent a Hugh amount of the worlds population today, remember God told Abraham His descendent's would be as the stars of Heave impossible to number. anyway that is off subject sorry.
peace and love …………………………gene
Seeking said:
Quote Absolutely false! After the coming of the promised Holy Spirit,
who would lead into all truth, the Apostles were released to go into non-Israelite nations. Here is how Jesus put it:Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria , and to the end of the earth.”
Seeking,
First, Jesus did not say that they would be witnesses to the uttermost parts of the earth. He said that they would be witnesses to the uttermost parts of the land, that is, the land of Palestine. Samaria was a part of Palestine. Second, the Acts 8 narrative says nothing about the gospel being preached to Gentiles. Jews lived in Samaria too. I have not misunderstood the mandate. Jesus told them to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.Seeking said:
Quote I go with, the apostles understood and followed the Lord's directions clearly and precisely. They went to Samaria, preached Jesus in Samaria, and baptizied in Samaria –
That is in accordance with the great historian Luke.But it does not say that they baptized Gentiles in Samaria. You are drawing an invalid inference. Again, Jews lived in Samaria too. They were commanded explicitly to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Seeking said:
Quote Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” They were sent. They went! Samaria, a non-Jewish people of a non-Jewish religion. The preached and when they were believed they baptized – non-Jewish people.
Again, they were sent to the “uttermost parts of the land” [of Palestine]. Depending upon the context the Greek word “ghay” may refer to simply a region (Strong's # 1093). There is no way the disciples could have understood Jesus to be talking about global evengelism for He said,
Quote Truly, truly I say to you, you will not have gone through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes (Matt. 10:23) You say that they were mandated to go beyond Israel to the uttermost parts of the earth. Yet Jesus told them to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And He said that they wouldn't even get to all the cities of Israel before He returned. I wonder how you will wiggle out of this?
I noticed that you did not comment on my proof that the translations that say “Gentiles” in Matthew 4 are erroneous.
Seeking said:
Quote You can quit with this any time now because you are biblically inaccurate – I will continue for as long as there are legalists on this board who transfer old covenant regulations for Israel to our day. Baptism was an old covenant ritual. Hebrews 6 says that it was of the “elementery principles of Christ.” Then chapter 9 says that baptisms and external regulations were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order and that they all belonged to the first covenant (9:9,10 & back to vs. 1).
Again, you have failed to show baptism was a universal requirement and that it still applies today. You have denied that the Gentiles were being justified apart from baptism. Paul explicitly said that the Gentiles were being justified by their obedience to the revelation of God in nature (Rom. 2). You have explained this away.
Quote For not the hearers of the law are justified in the sight of God, but the doers of the law shall be justified; for WHEN the Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do those things in the law…show that the law is written in their hearts (Rom. 2:13-15) Paul said “WHEN” the Gentiles do the things in the law. He didn't say “if.” He said that when they do those things in the law they “SHOW” that the law was written in their hearts. Therefore, the Gentiles were justified APART from baptism.
But this has been done away also. All men are justified by faith alone today.
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 04 2009,06:51) Seeking ………The apostles were commissioned to go to the lost Sheep of the house of Israel, not to the gentiles as Jesus specifically told them to do. Galilee was in the Provence of the gentiles, but a large part of the Lost Sheep of Israel were living there and this is where Jesus was preaching , He was (ONLY) commissioned to the House of Israel, no one else, as He said He was. They have found new evidence that the lost house of Israel were pushed up into the area of Caspian sea and Asia even where the Seven churches in Revelations were and eventual wound up in England and Scotland and Europe , known as Anglo Saxons, and Celts . The word Saxons Comes from sons of Isaac and was a identifier of the House of Israel There are so amazing things being found out now about the migration of the House of Israel. There are far more Israelite descendent's them people even begin to realize. Anyway seeking i think , thinker may be right on this subject. Paul was not i believe instructing the gentiles to be water baptized.
peace ………………………………..gene
Amen Gene!Nick said:
Quote So when Jesus shared his anointing in Mt 10 do you think that forever limited the message to jews? Nick,
No one has ever said that the gospel message was for the Jews only “forever.” You don't listen. I have already said that the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles was “post apostolic”. The Jews had to first be made into the holy priesthood God ordained them to be so that they could bring Gentiles into the covenant of salvation.thinker
Hi TT,
Post-apostolic?
There are still apostles in the everliving body of Christ.[1cor12]
We gentiles can be part of that holy priesthood as there is no division between jews and greeks in Christ.There is no division in the body of Christ in any way.
No division in time of appointment.
No division in race.As everyone else has told you Paul and Peter and Philip ministered salvation to gentiles.
Quote Seeking,
First, Jesus did not say that they would be witnesses to the uttermost parts of the earth. He said that they would be witnesses to the uttermost parts of the land, that is, the land of Palestine.ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): – country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.Now let me see, I have to pick one out here, Terrene -Globe?
No, no, that won't due. Earth – no way! World – you must be kidding!! Land – yes, yes, land of course.Quote Jews lived in Samaria too Act 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
So when the Jews in Jerusalem heard that the Jews in Samaria received the word, they thought they had better send someone to check it out. It is clear that the wonder came from the fact that people of Samaritan convictions, enemies of the Jews, people of a completely different set of religious practices, were the ones spoken of.
You stress that Jesus sent the Apostles only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And what was their message to be to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?
For the first time, when Jesus sent them to the ends of the earth, beginning in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria – they had a brand new message. That message is, was, and ever will be the hope of the world.
For the first time they could function under the power of the Spirit, preach a risen Savior, announce Messiah has come in all His fullness. This is not a limited message. IT IS THE HOPE OF THE WORLD. MUCH MORE THAN JUST, “the land.”
It is the gospel Paul preached – 1Co 15:1-3 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
Quote Paul explicitly said that the Gentiles were being justified by their obedience to the revelation of God in nature (Rom. 2). You have explained this away. Wrong! I have explained nothing away. Paul did in Rom. 3
Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Rom 3:21 But nowthe righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it–
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,Now was then and now is now.
You may think that there were some perfect Gentiles who flawlessly kept the law written on their hearts, but scripture does not bear that out. IF they could have kept it perfectly
they would not need the Gospel. They would still just keep the law.Jas 2:10 YLT for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;
Seeking
Nick……….Here is where i found the migration of ancient Israel; ……The Story of Celto-Saxon Israel……. BY W.H. Bennett.
peace …………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 03 2009,12:51) Seeking ………The apostles were commissioned to go to the lost Sheep of the house of Israel, not to the gentiles as Jesus specifically told them to do. Galilee was in the Provence of the gentiles, but a large part of the Lost Sheep of Israel were living there and this is where Jesus was preaching , He was (ONLY) commissioned to the House of Israel, no one else, as He said He was. They have found new evidence that the lost house of Israel were pushed up into the area of Caspian sea and Asia even where the Seven churches in Revelations were and eventual wound up in England and Scotland and Europe , known as Anglo Saxons, and Celts . The word Saxons Comes from sons of Isaac and was a identifier of the House of Israel There are so amazing things being found out now about the migration of the House of Israel. There are far more Israelite descendent's them people even begin to realize. Anyway seeking i think , thinker may be right on this subject. Paul was not i believe instructing the gentiles to be water baptized.
peace ………………………………..gene
Gene,Good to have you aboard here! I will not inundate you with all the thoughts that have been shared here. I am sure yoou have read, or can read, them for yourself.
Baptism is Thinker's main issue here. It is not mine. Mine has been the theories aboout various things that supposedly render baptism irrelevant and unapplicable. Things like Paul's personal gospel, one message for Jews another for Gentiles, etal. I am persuaded there is but one gospel for all mankind preached by believers. It is about Jesus, crucified, dead, buried and risen. The total propitiation for everyone's sins, even those justified by law keeping per Thinker. For we ALL have sinned.
You have commented on Baptism. Suffice it to say my take is like yours. Accusations of legalism, to me, are ignorant if the accuser thinks He/she is not. Think of the “churches” if you would – you can join at Heaven.net.
Trinity yes – baptism no “Truth Church.” Baptism yes – Trinity no 'Solid Foundation Worship Center.” He's Coming in the clouds – “Hope International.” He's here, where you been church – “On Solid Ground” And each has the audacity to call the other “legalistic.”
I choose the name “Seeking” because I am sure I haven't arrived yet. I am free to say, “I DON'T KNOW” but “I DO KNOW HIM!”
1Co 8:2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
Blessings and peace to yoou,
Seeking
Nick said:
Quote There are still apostles in the everliving body of Christ.[1cor12] I don't see real, bonafide miracles being performed today.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 03 2009,16:56) Nick said: Quote There are still apostles in the everliving body of Christ.[1cor12] I don't see real, bonafide miracles being performed today.
thinker
Thinker,Could there be other things involved in an Apostilic ministry?
Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.Seeking
To All,
Our brother Seeking is starting to fall apart. He can't even give a coherent reply now. I showed him from Strong's that the Greek “ghay” may refer to “regions” or it may have a global reference. But what was Seeking's sarcastic reply? He said, “Now which one should I choose?” He said this after I had already helped him out. Jesus said,Quote Truly, truly I say to you, you will not have gone through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes (Matt. 10:23) Let's read it Seeking's way,
Quote “Falsely, falsely I say to you, you will not have gone through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes” It is not a hard choice. The Greek “ghay” may refer to a limited region or the entire globe depending upon context. Yet Seeking can't “decide” which way to go even though Jesus said, “Truly, truly I say…you will not have gone over all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.” If the disciples understood the expression “to the uttermosts parts of the land” to be a call to global evangelism beyond Palestine, then they had poor memories or they were pretty stupid. For Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will not have gone over all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.”
It appears as if Seeking is hopelessly bound to the traditions of men rather than the Bible's own historical accounts of the way things were.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 03 2009,17:30)
Thank you for your kindness.Quote “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will not have gone over all the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.” When did this happen and when did they terminate travel?
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 04 2009,10:56) Nick said: Quote There are still apostles in the everliving body of Christ.[1cor12] I don't see real, bonafide miracles being performed today.
thinker
Hi TT,
Will there be faith on earth when Jesus returns?Hi TT,
You decided
“All men are justified by faith alone today.”With few miracles around very few must be saved?
Hi TT,
You say
“Our brother Seeking is starting to fall apart. He can't even give a coherent reply now”
Is this your aim?“Winning” battles of debate can still leave you in a state of deep deception can it not?
Hi all,
Thinker posted this as a contention:
Quote
To All,
Our brother Seeking is starting to fall apart. He can't even give a coherent reply now. I showed him from Strong's that the Greek “ghay” may refer to “regions” or it may have a global reference.Here are his original posts on the subject of “ghay.”
Quote Seeking,
First, Jesus did not say that they would be witnesses to the uttermost parts of the earth. He said that they would be witnesses to the uttermost parts of the land, that is, the land of Palestine.Quote Again, they were sent to the “uttermost parts of the land” [of Palestine]. Depending upon the context the Greek word “ghay” may refer to simply a region (Strong's # 1093). Do any of you see where Thinker said anything about “global reference? He said he did. You don't see it? I didn't think so!
No why – it isn't there.This is typical with Thinker though. He can see things others cannot. But remember, per Thinker -“Our brother Seeking is starting to fall apart.”
Seeking
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