Is baptism needed for salvation?

[942767]

Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 03 2009,11:57)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 03 2009,13:33) Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 03 2009,10:16) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 03 2009,11:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2009,21:38) Marty said: Quote Yes, God has made a promise that if we believe his testimony regarding what he has done for us in the person of His Son and His Christ, and we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins, we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Marty, You have helped me prove my point. You have just inferred that a person who is not baptized cannot have the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is the result of your failure to understand that baptism was a part of the foundation that the apostles laid and that they FINISHED laying that foundation. Hebrews warned then not to lay the foundation again. thinker Hi thethinker: I did not infer that at all.  Cornelius received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed.  We are saved by Faith, but faith without works is dead.   There are instances when someone may turn to God in desperation and receive the Holy Ghost.  I did. This is what the Apostle Peter told Cornelius after he had received the Holy Ghost: Quote Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days Just wondering – the “works” that you are taklking about are they works of ritual ie baptism or works as in deeds that have to do with mercy, love and justice. To me the new covenant has more to do with worshiping and obeying the spirit of the law in truth and love and loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God, rather than following the letter and observing rituals (dead works) like baptism, communion, church going. In James where it says faith without works is dead is more about showing mercy to people and not observing rituals James 2:13    For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Hi Meerkat: The work of baptism is symbolic of your union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection.  It shows publically that you have died unto sin, and have been raised by the Holy Spirit of God to a newness of life. Quote Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord Quote Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Quote 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Marty What I believe is that 70AD was the end of an age  – the old covenant age – we are told that while the physical temple still stands the old order has not passed   – they still baptised with water because the temple was still standing. Hbrews 9:9-10 seems to mean that there is a transition period while the first temple still stands (with its ordinances, divers washings) that is there until the time of reformation.       Acts 2:40  What untoward generation were they saving themselves from   – that generation that was getting judgement in 70AD?   Also whenever you see the word baptism you automatically think baptism in water – what about the baptism of the Holy Spirit? – to me it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves us not the water and that was a symbol of what was happening spiritually.  We do not need the symbol if we have the actual.

Hi MK:

Getting off work for the night and I may have more comments than I am about to give you on this tomorrow when I
have time to read all that you have to say, but this one thing once Jesus entered the holies, the temple on earth did not have any bearing on those who believed that he was the Messiah, and so, I don't see why 70AD has anything to do with this although I know that is when the temple was destroyed.

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Mt27

51and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent,

Hebrews 10:19-21

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

[kerwin]

The Thinker wrote:

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You're in denial. It was never about all people of all time coming into the covenant. It was about the Gentiles coming into the covenant who were not in the covenant before. Gentiles have been in the covenant for 2,000 years now. So the Jewish priesthood accomplished its mission. Therefore, baptism is no longer necessary.

I was going to drop out of this conversation as I thought I had said all I needed to without going into vain repetition but since you accuse me of being in denial while making up your own gospel that contradicts the plain reading of scripture I will point to the Great Commission given to the eleven apostles once again.

Matthew 28:16-20(NIV) reads

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Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I can clearly read that Jesus did not say go just to the Hebrew people which is what he himself did for the main part. Rather Jesus said go to all nations. In fact the Hebrew people rejected Jesus when they had him crucified on the cross and at that time the kingdom was taken from them and given to the Gentiles and Hebrews that would produce its fruit even as it is written:

Matthew 21:43-44(NIV) reads:

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Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.

So contradictory to what you teach the Gentiles who would produce God’s fruit were invited into the new covenant and not at a later time. The only problem is that the eleven seemed slow to understand what Jesus told them or more likely though the Gentiles had to become Jews first. In case you do not realize it Gentiles could and did covert to Judaism.

Acts 2:11(NIV) reads:

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(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

The Jewish opinion that Gentiles had to become Jews is what we refer to as legalism and it is a false teaching that Paul fought against in his letters.

Baptism though a conversion ritual that is Hebrew in origin was extended to the new covenant by Jesus command to the eleven, and through them to all Christians, to baptize those who became disciples by the authority of God.

I assume you are making up your version of the gospel because some parts of the accounts as given in scripture are confusing to you. It is obviously the differences between the cultures of the Jews and Gentiles that is confusing you as it did the apostles and other disciples at first. I assure you these differences are really irrelevant which is something legalists had trouble understanding.

Still I do not see what use it is for you to get the correct understanding in this area if you choose not to believe that God can and will stop you from sinning in this world even as He promised through His Son Jesus our Lord.

[KangarooJack]

Marty wrote:

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Cornelius was a devout gentile who was obeying God but he was sent to the Apostle Peter to hear what God has done for humanity in the person of Jesus Christ.  This is what I am saying that when he believed and he, and they that were with him, received the Holy Ghost and this prior to being baptized in water.

Marty, your statement above appears to contradict what you said previously. You say now that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit  prior to his being baptized. But before you said this:

Quote

Cornelius received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed.  We are saved by Faith, but faith without works is dead.

So first you said that faith without works is dead. Then you said that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit without being baptized. Please help me out here. Thanks

James' principle that faith without works is dead id old covenant. James wrote while theold covenant was still in effect.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
The Law was until John

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Jesus gave of the Spirit to vessels washed by the Word.
Then they were baptised in water

Acts 10
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Anointed James did not teach the OT but ministered the New.

[KangarooJack]

Meerkat wrote

Quote

What I believe is that 70AD was the end of an age  – the old covenant age – we are told that while the physical temple still stands the old order has not passed   – they still baptised with water because the temple was still standing. Hbrews 9:9-10 seems to mean that there is a transition period while the first temple still stands (with its ordinances, divers washings) that is there until the time of reformation.

Yes! Good post Meerkat! Most Christians think that the old covenant was abolished abruptly all at once and therefore baptism must be new covenant. But Hebrews makes it clear that the old was phased out gradually and the destruction of the temple was the sign that the new had fully came. The destruction of the temple was the sign that all baptisms and external regulations were abolished.

The baptisms and external regulations of verses 9-10 were said to belong to the first covenant (vs.1). The first covenant was the old covenant.  That settles it for me and should settle it for everyone.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Nick wrote:

Quote

The Law was until John

You read Christ's statement wronly Nick. Read what Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount:

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Do not think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly I say to you…one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law until all be fulfilled. WHOSOEVER THEREFORE BREAKS ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS AND TEACHES MEN SO, SHALL BE CALLED THE LEAST IN THE KINGDOM (Matt. 5:17-19).

The law was in effect until Christ fulfilled every jot and tittle. This is why the disciples had to baptize. You need to re-think your silly idea that the law ended with John. If that was the case then Jesus wouldn't have needed to be baptized by John.

You cite Scriptures out of context.  

thinker

[KangarooJack]

kerwin,Feb. wrote:

[/quote]
Kerwin wrote:

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I can clearly read that Jesus did not say go just to the Hebrew people which is what he himself did for the main part.   Rather Jesus said go to all nations.

Kerwin,
Your taking Christ's mandate to them out of context. In Acts it says that they were to begin with Jerusalem and then work their way to the uttermost parts ot the land. Then Paul came along and said that the gospel is to be preached to the Jew FIRST.

And if you follow the Acts narrative from beginning to end you will find that they only preached to the Gentiles incidentally as they were preaching to Jews first. They did not seek out the Gentiles at the beginning. The mandate was to the Jew FIRST.

So yes, they were to give the gospel to all humanity. But they were to begin with the Jew and continue preaching to the Jew until it was time to preach to the Gentiles. The Jews had to come into salvation first for two reasons:
1. They were God's “firstborn” and therefore had the priority.
2. They were the priesthood that was ordained to bring other nations into the covenant.

The mandate was to go to all nations BUT “to the Jew FIRST”. The Gentiles were to come into the covenant later by the priestly work of the Jews. After the Gentiles settled into the covenant with Israel then there was no longer a need for a priesthood. Therefore, baptism was no longer necessary.

your friend,
thinker

[kerwin]

To whomever may be interested,

I posted to Nick in covenants since we are speaking of the new and old covenant.

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
“Do not think that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly I say to you…one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law until all be fulfilled. WHOSOEVER THEREFORE BREAKS ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS AND TEACHES MEN SO, SHALL BE CALLED THE LEAST IN THE KINGDOM (Matt. 5:17-19).”

Every jot and tittle was fulfilled by the time he died.
Tha law was never given to gentiles.

Only those under the law were bound by the law and no more entered that covenant from the time of John.

A new priesthood had been declared and was fulfilled at the tearing of the temple curtain, his flesh.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick………Jesus was talking about what was written in the (BOOKS) of the law and Prophets . Notice He said to (FULFILL) He meant what was written about Him in them. IMO

peace………………………………………gene

[david]

Gene I (SEE) this is where you are (HIDING) isn't this supposed to be about (BAPTISM)……….

[NickHassan]

GB,
Jesus was baptised to fulfill all righteousness

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2009,16:20)

Hi 94, Mt27 51and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent, Hebrews 10:19-21 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God;

Hi Nick:

True. With this the temple is now the body of Christ, and he is our high priest in the holy of holies in the very presence of God, and although the temple was not destroyed until 70AD, it has no bearing on water baptism at all.

[KangarooJack]

Nick said:

Quote

Jesus was baptised to fulfill all righteousness

Yes. To fulfill all righteousness means to fulfill the law. His death and intercession in the heavenly tabernacle completed all things. Until then they were required to obey the law of Moses.

thinker

[942767]

Hi Thethinker and Meerkat:

When was the epistle of 1 John written?

Here is a reference to water baptism in this epistle. If I am not mistaken, it is believed that it was written after 70AD>

Quote

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Meerkat water baptism an act of obedience to the God and is a public profession of your faith. No the water does not save us, we are saved by faith. The baptism signifies publically that Jesus is your Lord and that you have died unto sin. When you receive the Holy Ghost that signifies that your sins have been forgiven and that you have been raised again from the dead.

The scripture that best explains this is a scripture that Nick has already posted, but I will post it again:

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Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

My desire is God's very best for you and your family.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

thethinker …..i believe the ten commandments are spirit and will never be done away with, i believe what was done away with is the way there Keep , one through works of (LAW) forced compliance, EX 20:20 (using the medium of fear), the other is being created in us by GOD himself. One is works of law the other works of the Spirit, but never is there any doing away with the commandments. The love of GOD shed around in our hearts Keep the commandments of GOD. Just as it Says (LOVE) fulfills (the) Law. or the ten commandments. The definite article in front of the word (LAW) identifies it as the ten commandments. These are eternal commandments and are Spirit and must be fulfilled by Spirit. The Gentiles who have not the Law, but do the things there in show the Laws of GOd written on their Hearts by the Hand of GOD. The only the at issue is the WAY, not the fact they need to be Keep. IMO

peace to you……………………………………………gene

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Baptism is the new circumcision.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

Are those under the old covenant circumcised?
We should be 'circumcised' according to the NT

[david]

Quote

Nick………Jesus was talking about what was written in the (BOOKS) of the law and Prophets

Quote

The definite article in front of the word (LAW) identifies it as the ten commandments.

You were right the first time Gene. The phrase “the law and the prophets” is used a couple of times to refer to the Hebrew scriptures as a whole. There was the law (The torah, first 5 books) and there was the prophets (Isaiah, Daniel, etc, etc.) There was also the Psalms or Poetry, but when the phrase law and prophets is used like this other scriptures seem to indicate that it suggests the Hebrew scriptures as a whole. It is not referring to THE Law (with the commandments) but is referring to the law “and the prophets.”

[KangarooJack]

Gene said:

Quote

i believe the ten commandments are spirit and will never be done away with, i believe what was done away with is the way there Keep , one through works of  (LAW) forced compliance, EX 20:20 (using the medium of fear), the other is being created in us by GOD himself. One is works of law the other works of the Spirit, but never is there any doing away with the commandments. The love of GOD shed around in our hearts Keep the commandments of GOD. Just as it Says (LOVE) fulfills (the) Law. or the ten commandments.  The definite article in front of the word (LAW) identifies it as the ten commandments. These are eternal commandments and are Spirit and must be fulfilled by Spirit. The Gentiles who have not the Law, but do the things there in show the Laws of GOd written on their Hearts by the Hand of GOD. The only the at issue is the WAY, not the fact they need to be Keep. IMO

This is what I have been trying to say. We are to observe the law now in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Baptism belonged to the letter which is old covenant.

thinker

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