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the thinker……….What about the baptism of Christ (SPIRIT and FIRE) is that still needed for Christians, I believe it still is. What do you think brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Kerwin asked:
Quote The gospel is still being preached to this day to both the Hebrew people and the gentiles for many are not in the new covenant. Kerwin,
I praise God with you that the gospel is still being preached today. But this does not prove that the Jewish priesthood still continues til today. Once the Gentiles came into the covenant of grace the Jewish priesthood finished its work.Paul said that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven,
Quote …be not moved away from the hope of the gospel which was preached to EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN…(Colossians 1:23). Please note that Paul said that the gospel had been preached to “every creature UNDER HEAVEN”. But this did not mean that the preaching of the gospel was finished for Paul had asked for prayer to preach the gospel AFTER it had reached the world:
Quote Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open the door to us to speak the mystery of Christ [that is, the gospel], (4:1). Paul requested prayer after the fact. The gospel had been preached to all but Paul still wanted to preach it and he asked for prayer.
So we too preach the gospel after the fact. You enjoy salvation today because those first century, Jewish Christians went out into Gentile lands and done their priestly work. They finished it. And their works do follow them even today. That you and I even talk about these things is evidence.
So why is baptism necessary!
Love,
thinkerHi TT,
Because God requires it of those who hope to become His obedient servants.
Wisdom is justified by her childrenNick said:
Quote Inference is not of much value in sacred matters So what do you infer from the text Nick? Kerwin is making an inference too.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2009,08:59) Hi TT,
Where?
Kerwin infers that “strangers” and “pilgrims” means that our citizenship is not this world. But it also means that one's citizenship is not in the land inwhich he is residing. Is not a missionary from the U.S. who goes to live in Kenya to minister a “stranger” and a “pilgrim” in Kenya? Kerwin assumes that the expressions “strangers” and “pilgrims” always has the same reference. This is inference.BTW, Jesus inferred there was a resurrection from the statement, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”.
thinker
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 02 2009,21:31) The Thinker wrote: Quote You keep insisting that the priesthood is necessary today. But the purpose of the priesthood was to bring Gentiles into the covenant. They were brought into the covenant in the first century and have been in the covenant sense. The Jewish priesthood fulfilled its mandate. If you say no to this then you must explain why the Church is comprised of men and women of all races. This was not true at the beginning.
The gospel is still being preached to this day to both the Hebrew people and the gentiles for many are not in the new covenant.
Kerwin,
You're in denial. It was never about all people of all time coming into the covenant. It was about the Gentiles coming into the covenant who were not in the covenant before. Gentiles have been in the covenant for 2,000 years now. So the Jewish priesthood accomplished its mission. Therefore, baptism is no longer necessary.Thinker
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 01 2009,16:12) 942767. …. your obedience to anything coming from yourself will not get you anything with God, We must be (CREATED) Righteous by GOD HIMSELF without any help from us. “for it is God who (WORKS) in you (BOTH) to WILL and DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE”. WE are transformed by GOD Himself and GOD himself gets (ALL) the Glory. Men like to steal Gods glory to themselves. AS God said through Jesus, “all the every came before me were liars and thieves”. Man is liar thinking His so-called FREE CHOICES, Saves Him and he repents on his own, and He is also a thief because He is stealing Glory that belongs to God and taking it to himself. 94 think about it. love and peace to you and yours…………………….gene
Gene:I am obeying my Father just as Jesus obeyed. Is that ok by you?
Hi thethinker:
You say:
Quote First, baptism is NOT a requirement in the new covenant age. Please give me the sriptures which state this.
Thanks
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2009,21:38) Marty said: Quote Yes, God has made a promise that if we believe his testimony regarding what he has done for us in the person of His Son and His Christ, and we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins, we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Marty,
You have helped me prove my point. You have just inferred that a person who is not baptized cannot have the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.This is the result of your failure to understand that baptism was a part of the foundation that the apostles laid and that they FINISHED laying that foundation. Hebrews warned then not to lay the foundation again.
thinker
Hi thethinker:I did not infer that at all. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed. We are saved by Faith, but faith without works is dead.
There are instances when someone may turn to God in desperation and receive the Holy Ghost. I did.
This is what the Apostle Peter told Cornelius after he had received the Holy Ghost:
Quote Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain daysQuote (942767 @ Feb. 03 2009,11:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2009,21:38) Marty said: Quote Yes, God has made a promise that if we believe his testimony regarding what he has done for us in the person of His Son and His Christ, and we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins, we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Marty,
You have helped me prove my point. You have just inferred that a person who is not baptized cannot have the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.This is the result of your failure to understand that baptism was a part of the foundation that the apostles laid and that they FINISHED laying that foundation. Hebrews warned then not to lay the foundation again.
thinker
Hi thethinker:I did not infer that at all. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed. We are saved by Faith, but faith without works is dead.
There are instances when someone may turn to God in desperation and receive the Holy Ghost. I did.
This is what the Apostle Peter told Cornelius after he had received the Holy Ghost:
Quote Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days
Just wondering – the “works” that you are taklking about are they works of ritual ie baptism or works as in deeds that have to do with mercy, love and justice.To me the new covenant has more to do with worshiping and obeying the spirit of the law in truth and love and loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God, rather than following the letter and observing rituals (dead works) like baptism, communion, church going.
In James where it says faith without works is dead is more about showing mercy to people and not observing rituals
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Marty wrote:
Quote Cornelius received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed. We are saved by Faith, but faith without works is dead. Marty,
Cornelius believed at least four days before he received the Holy Spirit. He told Peter,Quote Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God. Send therefore to Joppa and call for Simon here, whose surname is Peter….When he comes, he will speak to you….While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word' “[/b], Acts 10:30-44). Cornelius had offered believing prayers four days before the man in bright clothing came to him. The man in bright clothing came to assure him that his prayers were heard by God. After this Cornelius was instructed by the man in bright clothing to call for Peter. It was upon Peter's words that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius.
It is clear from the narrative that Cornelius did not receive the Spirit “instantly”. He believed PRIOR to His receiving the Holy Spirit. Then one came to him as a “man” and instructed him to call for Peter. Then Peter came. But how much time elapsed before Peter came we don't know. It was then that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit as the direct result of Peter's preaching.
The narrative offers no evidence that Cornelius received the Spirit “instantly” upon believing. Four days had passed before the “man” had come to Cornelius and instructed him to call for Peter. We don't know how many days had passed until Peter arrived. And then the Holy Spirit was dispensed to Cornelius by Peter's words.
thinker
Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 03 2009,10:16) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 03 2009,11:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2009,21:38) Marty said: Quote Yes, God has made a promise that if we believe his testimony regarding what he has done for us in the person of His Son and His Christ, and we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins, we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Marty,
You have helped me prove my point. You have just inferred that a person who is not baptized cannot have the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.This is the result of your failure to understand that baptism was a part of the foundation that the apostles laid and that they FINISHED laying that foundation. Hebrews warned then not to lay the foundation again.
thinker
Hi thethinker:I did not infer that at all. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed. We are saved by Faith, but faith without works is dead.
There are instances when someone may turn to God in desperation and receive the Holy Ghost. I did.
This is what the Apostle Peter told Cornelius after he had received the Holy Ghost:
Quote Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days
Just wondering – the “works” that you are taklking about are they works of ritual ie baptism or works as in deeds that have to do with mercy, love and justice.To me the new covenant has more to do with worshiping and obeying the spirit of the law in truth and love and loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God, rather than following the letter and observing rituals (dead works) like baptism, communion, church going.
In James where it says faith without works is dead is more about showing mercy to people and not observing rituals
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Hi Meerkat:The work of baptism is symbolic of your union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. It shows publically that you have died unto sin, and have been raised by the Holy Spirit of God to a newness of life.
Quote Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our LordQuote Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;Quote 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Meerkat said:
Quote To me the new covenant has more to do with worshiping and obeying the spirit of the law in truth and love and loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God, rather than following the letter and observing rituals (dead works) like baptism, communion, church going. Amen! The new covenant is about obedience according to the spirit of the law.
Quote But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to it, so that we should serve in the NEWNESS OF SPIRIT and not the oldness of the letter, (Rom. 7:6). And Jesus anticipated that spirit worship was coming. He said His Father was seeking people to worship in the spirit,
Quote The hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him (John 4:23). Note that Jesus said that those who worship in spirit are “true worshipers”. Yet men mandate external regulations today according to the letter and they think they acquire “points” with God.
God's new covenant people are finished with the letter of the law including ALL baptisms!
thinker
Marty wrote:Quote
Cornelius received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed. We are saved by Faith, but faith without works is dead.Marty,
Cornelius believed at least four days before he received the Holy Spirit. He told Peter,Quote
Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God. Send therefore to Joppa and call for Simon here, whose surname is Peter….When he comes, he will speak to you….While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word' “[/b], Acts 10:30-44).Cornelius had offered believing prayers four days before the man in bright clothing came to him. The man in bright clothing came to assure him that his prayers were heard by God. After this Cornelius was instructed by the man in bright clothing to call for Peter. It was upon Peter's words that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius.
It is clear from the narrative that Cornelius did not receive the Spirit “instantly”. He believed PRIOR to His receiving the Holy Spirit. Then one came to him as a “man” and instructed him to call for Peter. Then Peter came. But how much time elapsed before Peter came we don't know. It was then that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit as the direct result of Peter's preaching.
The narrative offers no evidence that Cornelius received the Spirit “instantly” upon believing. Four days had passed before the “man” had come to Cornelius and instructed him to call for Peter. We don't know how many days had passed until Peter arrived. And then the Holy Spirit was dispensed to Cornelius by Peter's words.
thinker
Back to topQuote (942767 @ Feb. 03 2009,13:33) Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 03 2009,10:16) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 03 2009,11:45) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2009,21:38) Marty said: Quote Yes, God has made a promise that if we believe his testimony regarding what he has done for us in the person of His Son and His Christ, and we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins, we shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Marty,
You have helped me prove my point. You have just inferred that a person who is not baptized cannot have the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.This is the result of your failure to understand that baptism was a part of the foundation that the apostles laid and that they FINISHED laying that foundation. Hebrews warned then not to lay the foundation again.
thinker
Hi thethinker:I did not infer that at all. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed. We are saved by Faith, but faith without works is dead.
There are instances when someone may turn to God in desperation and receive the Holy Ghost. I did.
This is what the Apostle Peter told Cornelius after he had received the Holy Ghost:
Quote Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days
Just wondering – the “works” that you are taklking about are they works of ritual ie baptism or works as in deeds that have to do with mercy, love and justice.To me the new covenant has more to do with worshiping and obeying the spirit of the law in truth and love and loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God, rather than following the letter and observing rituals (dead works) like baptism, communion, church going.
In James where it says faith without works is dead is more about showing mercy to people and not observing rituals
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Hi Meerkat:The work of baptism is symbolic of your union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection. It shows publically that you have died unto sin, and have been raised by the Holy Spirit of God to a newness of life.
Quote Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our LordQuote Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;Quote 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
MartyWhat I believe is that 70AD was the end of an age – the old covenant age – we are told that while the physical temple still stands the old order has not passed – they still baptised with water because the temple was still standing.
Hbrews 9:9-10 seems to mean that there is a transition period while the first temple still stands (with its ordinances, divers washings) that is there until the time of reformation.
Acts 2:40 What untoward generation were they saving themselves from – that generation that was getting judgement in 70AD?
Also whenever you see the word baptism you automatically think baptism in water – what about the baptism of the Holy Spirit? – to me it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves us not the water and that was a symbol of what was happening spiritually. We do not need the symbol if we have the actual.
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 03 2009,11:43) Marty wrote:Quote
Cornelius received the Holy Ghost the instant they believed. We are saved by Faith, but faith without works is dead.Marty,
Cornelius believed at least four days before he received the Holy Spirit. He told Peter,Quote
Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God. Send therefore to Joppa and call for Simon here, whose surname is Peter….When he comes, he will speak to you….While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word' “[/b], Acts 10:30-44).Cornelius had offered believing prayers four days before the man in bright clothing came to him. The man in bright clothing came to assure him that his prayers were heard by God. After this Cornelius was instructed by the man in bright clothing to call for Peter. It was upon Peter's words that the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius.
It is clear from the narrative that Cornelius did not receive the Spirit “instantly”. He believed PRIOR to His receiving the Holy Spirit. Then one came to him as a “man” and instructed him to call for Peter. Then Peter came. But how much time elapsed before Peter came we don't know. It was then that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit as the direct result of Peter's preaching.
The narrative offers no evidence that Cornelius received the Spirit “instantly” upon believing. Four days had passed before the “man” had come to Cornelius and instructed him to call for Peter. We don't know how many days had passed until Peter arrived. And then the Holy Spirit was dispensed to Cornelius by Peter's words.
thinker
Back to top
Hi thethinker:Cornelius was a devout gentile who was obeying God but he was sent to the Apostle Peter to hear what God has done for humanity in the person of Jesus Christ. This is what I am saying that when he believed and he, and they that were with him, received the Holy Ghost and this prior to being baptized in water.
Quote Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word
Meerkat………I agree with you it is the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT and FIRE that saves us. Not water at all.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
the thinker……….What do you think about this, the Holy Spirit was (ON) cornelius , but Not (IN) him untill Peter Spoke to Him.
Peter himself Had the Holy Spirit revelation about who Jesus was , before He was baptized with Fire and Spirit. Remember Jesus said the Conforted was (with) them , but would be in them. Another thing i noticed is in the Old testament the Spirit was always referenced as being ON some one, But in the New it is (IN) them. Have you every studied about that? Would like to know your thought on this.
love and peace to you and yours……………………….gene
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