- This topic has 4,343 replies, 85 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Kerwin wrote:
Quote You fail to understand why I quoted that passage. Remember that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. Like Aron and his sons he was entering the ministry. In the steps of Jesus we too will become a royal priesthood if we choose to follow his footsteps. Did Jesus rebel and say I have faith and so I do not have to do the work and be baptized or did he rather tell John the Baptist. Hi Kerwin,
You really did not expound your point in that post. But I should have asked you what you were getting at. Anyway, the Bible no where says that Christians today are a “royal priesthood”. Peter said that to Jewish Christians. It was Jews that were ordained as priests to give the covenant to the Gentile nations outside them.The covenant was given to the Gentile nations and therefore the Jewish priesthood has been fulfilled. Christians today are the recipients of the completed priesthood. We are the nations who were outside the covenant who were given the covenant by the exclusively Jewish priesthood”. We are not the priesthood. Gentiles never were of the priesthood. The first century Jewish Christians were the priesthood.
So if you're saying that one must be baptized to be of the priesthood then you have to explain why baptism is need because the priesthood has finished. For the priesthood was ordained to give the covenant from Jew to Gentile, not from Gentile to Gentile or from Gentile to Jew.
Therefore, why would baptism be needed today seeing that the Jew finished giving the covenant to the Gentile?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2009,09:01) Seeking wrote Quote “Word” here is “logos” Greetings Seeking,
How does the use of “logos” disprove what I said. It was still that which Christ spoke to them that cleansed them.Quote “Paul said that Christ's church is cleansed by the washing of water which is the Word (Eph. 5:26).” I say you wrote because I have not the version that states,
” water which is the Word” can you direct me to it?Here is the KJV – Ephes. 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (by the word, not,”which is the word.”The Greek says “IN the word”. Christ cleanses His church by washing her IN the Word. Wouldn't you agree that the Word is likened to water if we are washed IN it?
Quote The writer is talking to babes encouraging them to grow in basic teachings about Christ (which he states include [/B]Baptism[/B] etc. So, these were NOT OT teachings but teachings about Christ. They could not move on to meat because they did not grasp the basics! You say that they did not grasp the basics. But the word “basics” is not used. Baptism is called one of the “elementary principles”. According to Paul the “elementary principles” are old covenant things (Galatians).
The author to the Hebrews told them to LEAVE those things and to not hold on to them. It goes on to say that holding on to those things amounts to crucifying the Son of God again. Those who require baptism today are putting people under the old covenant again.
thinker
Greetings thinker……Iam not so sure that the elementry principles of the faith have their roots in the old testement…I would think the very foundation of christianty is set in the old testement writings….The apostles were Jews and for the most part adhered to the Torah,which Jesus came to fullfill not change a word or a title….The requisite for baptism speaks to a symbolic ritual that one partakes of at the time of repentance and symbolicly represents the cleansing of ones soul and the birth of a new creature in Christ….The physical requirement of emersion in water is elementry,however,the repentance is not…..and the gift of the spirit is of God when we have truly repented and changed…Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2009,22:03) Kerwin wrote: Quote You fail to understand why I quoted that passage. Remember that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. Like Aron and his sons he was entering the ministry. In the steps of Jesus we too will become a royal priesthood if we choose to follow his footsteps. Did Jesus rebel and say I have faith and so I do not have to do the work and be baptized or did he rather tell John the Baptist. Hi Kerwin,
You really did not expound your point in that post. But I should have asked you what you were getting at. Anyway, the Bible no where says that Christians today are a “royal priesthood”. Peter said that to Jewish Christians. It was Jews that were ordained as priests to give the covenant to the Gentile nations outside them.The covenant was given to the Gentile nations and therefore the Jewish priesthood has been fulfilled. Christians today are the recipients of the completed priesthood. We are the nations who were outside the covenant who were given the covenant by the exclusively Jewish priesthood”. We are not the priesthood. Gentiles never were of the priesthood. The first century Jewish Christians were the priesthood.
So if you're saying that one must be baptized to be of the priesthood then you have to explain why baptism is need because the priesthood has finished. For the priesthood was ordained to give the covenant from Jew to Gentile, not from Gentile to Gentile or from Gentile to Jew.
Therefore, why would baptism be needed today seeing that the Jew finished giving the covenant to the Gentile?
thinker
Greetings T…….The jewish (tribes of Judah(jew)Benjimen and Levi (Livitical)) priesthood still exists today,although they rejected the messiah these are the remnants of the children of Israel (12 tribes) who God made a promise(covenant)with,that ” If you Keep These statutes(commandments and Law) I will be your God and you will be my people…The gentiles you are refering to are those who are decendants of either the Jews or the remaining missing tribes that would have been known as Israel had they not been removed from Gods sight…They are not gentiles…What was Paul's practice regarding baptism? What do the scriptures record? All quotes will be from the NIV.
Quote For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (1Cor.1:14) First and foremost it should be note that Baptism was not
primary in Paul's ministry. His desire was to preach the gospel.
Baptism was only an outflow of that preaching. Thus it should be with preaching of the gospel today.Quote I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) (1C0r 1:14-16 While baptism was not primary to Paul;s preaching, we do see that he practiced it. In fact, we see he baptized “households.” Still, it was not uppermost in his mind.
Quote Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. (Acts 9:18-19) After three days of being blind and not eating and drinking,
after his conversion experience, one of his first actions -even before eating – was to, himself, be baptized.Quote The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. (Acts 16:15) Paul had traveled to Philippi and found some worshipers there that he preached to. Note that the Lord opened Lydia's
heart to respond to Paul's preaching. She and the members of her household, with opened hearts, were baptized. Today,
only those whos hearts have been opened by the Lord respond to the gospel and are baptized.Quote The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? “They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. (Acts 16:29-33) After the miraculous occurance in the prision the jailer asked pointedly, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They, that includes Paul, replied – “believe in the Lord Jesus (v.31) and they spoke the word of the Lord to the whole family (v.32). The resulting action is one that we might expect by now, “then immediately he and all his family were baptized.”Quote Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. Crispus, the synagogue ruler, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard him believed and were baptized. (Acts 18:7-8) Once more we see Paul ministering to a whole household. This time Crispus, a synagogue ruler, was even brought to belief in the Lord. What was the result of his belief and that
of many Corinthians? I'm sure you have guessed it by now! “heard him believed and were baptized.Quote Paul said, “John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:4-5) Here Paul makes a clear distinction between OT baptism of John and NT baptism into the name of the Lord Jesus. Once they understood, the result could and should by now be expected – they were baptized.
Reading nothing into the text and simply letting the facts speak for themselves, I conclude that baptism was not primary to Paul's preaching of the gospel, as he stated. It should not be primary to us. Nevertheless, Paul obviously included thepractice of baptism into Christ in his ministry and clearly seperated it from any old covenenant practice as included in John the baptists ministry. When I follow Paul's example, I am in good company. As Paul encouraged, 1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
I leave you to the word.
Blessings!
Seeking
The Thinker wrote:
Quote You really did not expound your point in that post
You are correct that I did assume that my readers would know what I was getting at. It is not just the Hebrew people who are considered a holy priesthood but all Christians which is why Peter addresses them as such in what we call his 1 letter.
1 Peter 2:5(NIV) reads:
Quote you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
He also writes shortly thereafter:
1 Peter 2:9(NIV) reads:
Quote But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Peter wrote his letter to all of God’s elect, and not just to Jewish Christians, scattered throughout several different areas just as it is written:
1 Peter 1:1-2(NIV) reads:
Quote Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
You are correct that all the Hebrew people were considered priests under the old covenant though the Levites were priests over them. In the new covenant we are the true people of God and those who claim to be Jews are heretics for they chose not to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. God’s people are always priest whose job it is to minister the truth to others.
TJ………you are right about the thirteen tribes still in existence today, there are far more Israelites in existence then in any time in History. Here are just some of the tribes , England France, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Denmark, in fact they are all over the entire world, Jesus said that the Message of the Kingdom would not have even covered all the cities of Israel before the son of Man comes. There are billions of Israelites existing today, in fact many here are Israelites and don't even know it, because they have lost their identity.
love and peace to you and yours…………………….gene
To All……………Baptism with water is (ONLY) Symbolic and produces nothing in a persons life , Baptism WITH HOLY SPIRIT and FIRE DOES.
its just that simple. IMO
love and peace to all…………………………………..gene
theodorej said:
Quote The requisite for baptism speaks to a symbolic ritual that one partakes of at the time of repentance and symbolicly represents the cleansing of ones soul and the birth of a new creature in Christ….The physical requirement of emersion in water is elementry,however,the repentance is not…..and the gift of the spirit is of God when we have truly repented and changed… Theo,
The traditional view is that baptism symbolically represents the cleansing of one's soul. But the fact was that baptism effected the real washing of the body as it was also looked upon as sinful by God.There is no such teaching in Scripture that says that baptism is a “sign” that represents the cleansing of the soul. Baptism was required for the washing of the body. But all things have been cleansed now and baptism is therefore unnecessary. It has been abolished.
blessings,
thinkertheodorej said:
Quote Greetings T…….The jewish (tribes of Judah(jew)Benjimen and Levi (Livitical)) priesthood still exists today,although they rejected the messiah these are the remnants of the children of Israel (12 tribes) who God made a promise(covenant)with,that ” If you Keep These statutes(commandments and Law) I will be your God and you will be my people…The gentiles you are refering to are those who are decendants of either the Jews or the remaining missing tribes that would have been known as Israel had they not been removed from Gods sight…They are not gentiles… Theo,
There is no priesthood of any kind today. The priesthood was only necessary to bring the Gentiles into the covenant. The gentiles have been brought into the covenant. The apostles who were all Jews and the Jewish Christians fulfilled the work of the priesthood.thinker
Kerwin wrote:
Quote It is not just the Hebrew people who are considered a holy priesthood but all Christians which is why Peter addresses them as such in what we call his 1 letter. Greetings Kerwin,
The epistle of Peter was written to Jewish Christians. Gentile Christians were never called “a royal priesthood”.Kerwin wrote:
Quote Peter wrote his letter to all of God’s elect, and not just to Jewish Christians, scattered throughout several different areas just as it is written: The elect that were scattered were the Jewish Christians. First, Peter told them that they were not redeemed with corruptible things such as silver and gold “from your aimless conduct you received by tradition of your fathers” (1:18). The Gentiles received no such tradition from their fahters. Second,Peter instructed them to live honorably among the Gentiles (2:12). This distinguishes them from the Gentiles.
Kerwin said:
Quote God’s people are always priest whose job it is to minister the truth to others. I see no such idea in Scripture. The priesthood was ordained to bring the nations outside Israel into the covenant. It meant that the jew was supposed to minister to the Gentile and declare the wonderful praises of God,
Quote You …are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His owm special people, that you may proclaim His praises (2:9) They fulfilled the work of the priesthood. Gentiles now possess the covenant too. And if the priesthood fulfilled its work, and baptism was requisite to becoming a priest, then baptism is no longer necessary.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2009,07:34) theodorej said: Quote Greetings T…….The jewish (tribes of Judah(jew)Benjimen and Levi (Livitical)) priesthood still exists today,although they rejected the messiah these are the remnants of the children of Israel (12 tribes) who God made a promise(covenant)with,that ” If you Keep These statutes(commandments and Law) I will be your God and you will be my people…The gentiles you are refering to are those who are decendants of either the Jews or the remaining missing tribes that would have been known as Israel had they not been removed from Gods sight…They are not gentiles… Theo,
There is no priesthood of any kind today. The priesthood was only necessary to bring the Gentiles into the covenant. The gentiles have been brought into the covenant. The apostles who were all Jews and the Jewish Christians fulfilled the work of the priesthood.thinker
Hi TT,
Really?1Peter2
4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,The Thinker wrote:
Quote The epistle of Peter was written to Jewish Christians. Gentile Christians were never called “a royal priesthood”.
There you seem to go making things up again. You do realize that Pontus, Galatia, and Cappadocia at least were located in Turkey which is a Gentile nation. I do believe both Asia and Bithynia are also Gentile lands. If Peter was addressing the Hebrew people then he would have called them Hebrews instead of “God's elect”. Do you believe the Hebrew people are God’s elect? If so the rest of us are in trouble as Jesus taught:
Matthew 24:24(NIV) reads:
Quote For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Peter told them that they were not redeemed with corruptible things such as silver and gold “from your aimless conduct you received by tradition of your fathers”
This is what the NIV version quotes that scripture as. I have no idea what version you choose to use. It does sound like your interpretation is different than mine. From what I understand Peter is telling the people of the Gentile lands he is addressing that they are not saved from their sins by silver or gold but that it is belief in Jesus as Lord that saves them. I assure you gentiles are more likely than the Hebrew people to have a sinful life style handed down to them since the Jews at least had the law.
1 Peter 1:18(NIV) reads:
Quote For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
The Thinker wrote:Quote I see no such idea in Scripture. The priesthood was ordained to bring the nations outside Israel into the covenant. It meant that the Jew was supposed to minister to the Gentile and declare the wonderful praises of God,
Exodus 19:5-6(NIV) reads:
Quote Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
It is through the new covenant that the true people of God can obey him fully by keeping His covenant and thus are “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”
Kerwin said:
Quote There you seem to go making things up again. You do realize that Pontus, Galatia, and Cappadocia at least were located in Turkey which is a Gentile nation. I do believe both Asia and Bithynia are also Gentile lands. Peter's reference to those Christians as “strangers” and “pilgrims” in Gentile territories supports me and not you. Those were Gentile lands as you say. Yet those Christians who Peter addressed were “strangers” and “pilgrims” in those lands. So they must have been Jews carrying out their priestly mandate to the Gentile nations.
Kerwin said:
Quote If Peter was addressing the Hebrew people then he would have called them Hebrews instead of “God's elect”. Do you believe the Hebrew people are God’s elect? If so the rest of us are in trouble as Jesus taught: Yes! The “elect” of that generation were the Jews. Jesus said that He came NOT but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And why would you ask me if this means that we Gentiles are in trouble? I have said several times that the Gentiles have received the covenant due to the finished work of the Jewish priesthood. So Gentiles indeed have salvation. But this doesn't imply that the Gentiles were priests. Is salvation from your sin not enough for you? Must you usurp the priestly office of the Jews?
The Jewish priesthood has finished. And if the priesthood has finished then baptism is unnecessary today.
Kerwin wrote:
Quote Exodus 19:5-6(NIV) reads:Quote Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
It is through the new covenant that the true people of God can obey him fully by keeping His covenant and thus are “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”
Come on dear brother. You cite a passage from Exodus inwhich God was speaking to Israel and you try to prove that Gentiles were priests too.
bless you,
thinkerHi TT,
You say
“So they must have been Jews carrying out their priestly mandate to the Gentile nations.”
Inference is not of much value in sacred mattersHi TT,
You say
“And if the priesthood has finished then baptism is unnecessary today.”Jesus baptised as did his followers in the book of Acts.
You are not greater than them
or the book of ActsThe Thinker wrote:
Quote Peter's reference to those Christians as “strangers” and “pilgrims” in Gentile territories supports me and not you.
I am first going to address the fact that Christians are to be strangers in this world for it is written:
Hebrews 11:13-16(NIV) reads:
Quote 13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
1 Peter 2:11(NIV) reads:
Quote 11Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.
Then I will deal with Christians being ministers of the gospel for we are told Jesus commanded the disciples.
Matthew 28:19-20(NIV) reads:
Quote 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
So Jesus commands the eleven to teach all nations which include the Hebrew people as well as gentiles. He commands them to teach EVERYTHING that Jesus commanded the eleven. EVERYTHING obviously includes teaching making disciples of all nations, baptizing them, and teaching them to obey everything Jesus commanded the eleven.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Come on dear brother. You cite a passage from Exodus in which God was speaking to Israel and you try to prove that Gentiles were priests too.
You completely missed the point God was making to the Hebrew people. God was saying that those who obey all of His commands are a holy nation and a nation of priests. Such obedience can only be accomplished by those who live by the Spirit and you can only live by the Spirit if you first enter the new covenant which you do by believing that God has promised you that you can be like Him in true righteousness and holiness if you believe Jesus is the one He made King of Heaven and Earth and therefore do all the works Jesus commands.
Quote (Shania @ May 24 2008,10:25) Quote (gsilva72 @ May 24 2008,10:20) Shania Doesn't Jesus mean Jehovah has become our salvation?
Like I said, the letter J is only about 500 years old, therefore it is impossible for Jehovah to be the Father's name.Jesus is a transliteration. There is nothing wrong with using the name of Jesus, it still carries the meaning, “YHWH is salvation.” It is just an english form of Yahushua {Some spell this Yahshua, Yeshua, Yahoshua, Yehoshua.} The reason I like using the name “Yahushua” is because you can see the meaning more clearly: “Yahuweh is salvation{oshea}” [The way to spell Yahuweh is also disputed, because these vowels do not exist in Hebrew {though the sounds that they make do.}
Jehovah is a form or transliteration of YHWH.
Here is the path of transliteration for “Jesus”
Yahushua. [Hebrew] The Greeks could not make the sounds “YAH” “HU” and “SHUA” These sounds did not exist in their vocabulary. The best that they could do was “IESUS” [pronounced “EE” “Aeh” “SOOS”]. In latin, the best they could do was “ISUS” [EEE SOOS]. When J came around, in english it became “Jesus”
make any sense?
Thanks for sharing that Shania.Quote (Shania @ May 29 2008,18:31) Quote (gsilva72 @ May 30 2008,10:10) Hi Shania: Doesn'tYahushua [Jesus] mean YHWH is salvation? 
yes.. why are we going around in circles?
That is a good question.There was no need to go round in circles from what I can see.
Kerwin wrote:
Quote I am first going to address the fact that Christians are to be strangers in this world for it is written: Kerwin,
I don't dispute that all Christians are strangers and pilgrims in the sense that our citizenship is not here but in heaven. But that's not what Peter was saying to those Jewish Christians. In the context he was speaking to those Jewish Christians that were “scattered” through the Gentile lands. They had left their homeland to take the gospel to the Gentiles. In doing this they were fulfilling THEIR priestly mandate. Gentiles never were of the priesthood.You keep insisting that the priesthood is necessary today. But the purpose of the priesthood was to bring Gentiles into the covenant. They were brought into the covenant in the first century and have been in the covenant sense. The Jewish priesthood fulfilled its mandate. If you say no to this then you must explain why the Church is comprised of men and women of all races. This was not true at the beginning.
Therefore, if baptism was required for one to be a priest and the priesthood has fulfilled it work, then baptism would not be necessary.
your friend,
thinkerThe Thinker wrote:
Quote You keep insisting that the priesthood is necessary today. But the purpose of the priesthood was to bring Gentiles into the covenant. They were brought into the covenant in the first century and have been in the covenant sense. The Jewish priesthood fulfilled its mandate. If you say no to this then you must explain why the Church is comprised of men and women of all races. This was not true at the beginning.
The gospel is still being preached to this day to both the Hebrew people and the gentiles for many are not in the new covenant.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
