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Hi all,
I am through with this one. Continual misapplication of Hebrews is wearying. Yes there was and old and a new. The
old is not to be added to the new.But, work unto salvation is man's babble. Again –
Luke 17:10 (KJV)
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.Anything I do merits me nothing.
Quote Isaiah 64:6 (KJV)
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.I do not work to be saved – never have! I work because I am saved –
Ephes. 2:8 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Ephes. 2:9-10 (KJV)
Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
QUOTE]It also seems there is a refusal to rightly divide the word and distinguish between OT baptism to be done away with and NT or covenant baptism to be retained. The NT Christians got it –
Acts 19:3-5 (KJV)
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Two baptisms, simple unless one refuses to see it. One is old covenant one is new. When you hear it you have one of two choices reject it or respond in faith as they did.
Seeking
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2009,12:05) 942767……….Well thin I guess you better kiss your ?? good by, because you still sin even though you know it, right. O but I forgot you and Nick are exception to the rest of man kind right. Pure hog wash! All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God , there is (non) righteous no Not (ONE). You either inter in by GRACE or YOU DON”T ENTER IN. God has concluded all under (SIN) that he might have mercy on ALL. Not just two little drop in the Sea of Humanity. FEAR mongering teaching changes no one in there hearts and has nothing to do with the LOVE of GOD. When men or women Sin they hurt there own selves, the are not hurting GOD. If what you say is true the we can write of all humanity, including King DAVID who know GOD Laws backward and forward, and took another mans wife and had her husband Uriah murdered, and on His death bed put out two hit contracts and even commanded his own son to do it. So for sure King David will not be there according to you and Nicks teachings. Pure Hog wash. All of us still sin even the Apostle Paul recognized that he still sinned , so i guess we can scrap him also. Our sins will not prevent us from inheriting the Kingdom of God because we will eventually by the power of God overcome them. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Hi Gene:Did David repent?
Nick……….”blessed is the man whom the Lord will not impute Sin, whose iniquities He has covered”. look i am not trying to discourage or prevent anyone, it's sometimes when i see “religious People” put down others and uses there weakness against them if irritates me. Look we have (ALL) sinned and done evil and if we expect GOD to have mercy on us why not on other also, what makes us think we are alright but other are not, “He who condemns another condemns himself”. Are we excepted and they are not. Nick if anything is discouraging the little one its this type of false teaching, if you can't offer encouragement then it better you don't even teach . Jesus came that the lost may be saved, so should that not be our mission also. IMO
love and peace to you an dyours……………………………..gene
Hi thethinker;
Everyone who is saved both OT and NT is saved by Faith. This faith is manifest through the works of obedience to God. Baptism is an act of obedience to God. It shows that you have believed and have repented. Does that mean that we are saved by works. No it does not because without the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from our sins both when we come to God through him initially, and afterward when we are obeying his commandments and missing the mark. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins.
Quote Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Quote Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:39 says that this applies to “as many as the Lord our God shall call”.
How does Chapter 9 of Hebrews change this?
God Bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2009,14:07) Nick……….”blessed is the man whom the Lord will not impute Sin, whose iniquities He has covered”. look i am not trying to discourage or prevent anyone, it's sometimes when i see “religious People” put down others and uses there weakness against them if irritates me. Look we have (ALL) sinned and done evil and if we expect GOD to have mercy on us why not on other also, what makes us think we are alright but other are not, “He who condemns another condemns himself”. Are we excepted and they are not. Nick if anything is discouraging the little one its this type of false teaching, if you can't offer encouragement then it better you don't even teach . Jesus came that the lost may be saved, so should that not be our mission also. IMO love and peace to you an dyours……………………………..gene
GB,
We do not preach condemnation but forgiveness.
We show what God has written in His books.Nick……….That not what i have seen you preach, just the opposite everyone but a few like yourself are going to be barbecued is what i have heard from you gospel messages. If you do not preach condemnation then don't tell people there are those who are going to be burned up in a Literal Lake of Fire them. especially when you don't even know if there is a real literal lake of fire. Yes you show just what is written that meets you personal teachings but i noticed you sure don't mention those scriptures that are against what you are saying, why is that Nick.
love and peace to you………………………………………..gene
942767…….You say baptism Shows we believe and have repented. Repented of what seeing we still are sinners when we are baptized. Please be specific as to what we repented of was it our sins or what.
love and peace……………………………gene
Gene Balthop wrote:
Quote if we expect GOD to have mercy on us why not on other also, what makes us think we are alright but other are not, “He who condemns another condemns himself”.
Paul did write that but it was certainly not to condone sin as you seem to be using it. In fact Paul himself wrote:
1 Corinthians 5:1-5(NIV) reads:
Quote 1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
He goes on to write:
1 Corinthians 5:9—13(NIV)
Quote
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”So is Paul being a hypocrite by “condemning” those who choose to embrace sin within the church.
If I misunderstand your meaning then please clarify your position. Thank you.
942767 wrote:
Quote How about you, Kerwin. Is there any possibility that you have misunderstood the scriptures?
I am not a man that is full of self confidence so I constantly test myself and debate with others so they too can test my findings. I do believe God does work on my heart but I also know that Satan gets in his licks and has deceived me in the past and is probably still deceiving me in some ways. But faith is about being confident in God and what I believe is based on God’ desires for me, on His power, and on His Righteousness.
942767 wrote:
Quote And so, what is the true gospel according to you?
As for the gospel I believe it revolves around God’s promise through his Son Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:6, that “those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled.” He also paraphrases the same promise to those that hear him in John 8:31-36 and they choose not to believe and later became angry and thought to stone him.
The questions I ask is does God want his people to be truly righteous as he is righteous and the answer is yes. Then I ask can God change a person to be truly righteous as he is righteous and again the answer is yes. The third question I ask is will he change a person to be truly righteous as he is righteous and again the answer is yes because he does as he promises.
We are told that the promise of righteousness is fulfilled for those who have faith in Jesus the Messiah if they choose to live by the Spirit they are given when immersed in water. One example of where we are told this is Romans 6:6-7 which reads:
Romans 6:6-7(NIV) reads:
Quote For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[ that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Another example is Galatians 5:16
Galatians 5:16(NIV):
Quote So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature
I can assure you that every truly righteous man and woman desires to stop sinning and they will eagerly seek to get this promise fulfilled. Of course it requires removing all the obstacles to the faith that God will do as He promised. One of those obstacles is not believing that Jesus is a man just like we are fully subject to the same temptations as us, who though faith in His Father overcame his own sinful nature and did not sin. You also have to believe Jesus is the king of heaven and earth and the fulfillment of the scriptures about the coming Messiah including his immaculate conception, virgin birth, sin free life, death, and resurrection. Another of course is not believing God can and will fulfill His promise which means you have to believe His promise in the first place. If you believe Jesus is Lord then you must obey his commands to repent and be immersed in water having faith God will honor His promise. If you do that then He will give you the Holy Spirit and you will truly be reborn and if you persevere in that faith despite every snare and trick Satan puts in your way then you will live by the Spirit, even though you may stumble at times, and so not perish.
If you do all of this then you do it by God’s grace for it is Him that will bring you to the faith and it is Him though Jesus that will lead you on the path of righteousness as well as giving you the Spirit. It is you though that will choose to embrace the true gospel and in faith follow where Jesus leads. It is Jesus and God living in you that chooses not to sin but it will be you cleaving to them by faith that does not sin. The question is do you believe because without belief the rest is of no real use.
Seeking said:
Quote It also seems there is a refusal to rightly divide the word and distinguish between OT baptism to be done away with and NT or covenant baptism to be retained. The NT Christians got it – Acts 19:3-5 (KJV)
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Two baptisms, simple unless one refuses to see it. One is old covenant one is new. When you hear it you have one of two choices reject it or respond in faith as they did.
Hey all,
Seeking thinks that only John's baptism was abolished. But Hebrews 6:1-2 explicitly says that “baptisms” (plural) were the “elementary principles of Christ and were all “foundational”. And Hebrews 9:9-10 says that “baptisms” (plural) were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order [the new covenant administration]. Therefore, no matter how many baptisms there were, one, two, or a thousand, they were ALL the “elementary principles OF CHRIST” and were foundational.Seeking says that there is a “new covenant” baptism that is still in effect. He must then DENY the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit to anyone who is not baptized. Peter commanded Israel to be repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
Seeking suggests that I am manipulating the book of Hebrews. But he just won't accept what God said. He said that baptisms (plural) were the “elementary principles” of Christ and that we are not to go back to that foundation. God also said that “baptisms” (plural) were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order (9:9-10). Baptisms were imposed until the new order and not during the new order. Yet Seeking says that there is one baptism that is still in effect in the new covenant age.
Seeking calls this one baptism a “new covenant” baptism. Yet without it a man cannot have his sins remitted nor can he receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That don't sound “new covenant” to me.
thethinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 30 2009,03:37) Hey all,
Seeking thinks that only John's baptism was abolished. But Hebrews 6:1-2 explicitly says that “baptisms” (plural) were the “elementary principles of Christ and were all “foundational”. And Hebrews 9:9-10 says that “baptisms” (plural) were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order [the new covenant administration]. Therefore, no matter how many baptisms there were, one, two, or a thousand, they were ALL the “elementary principles OF CHRIST” and were foundational.
Hey all,More manipulation!
In Heb.6:1-2 the writer encourages avoiding a return to
Judiasm and its many washings This is quite plain even in the text “Thinker”refers us to:Hebrews 9:10 (KJV)
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.The reformation was accomplished with the introduction of the new covenant and baptism into Christ.
Quote And Hebrews 9:9-10 says that “baptisms” (plural) were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order [the new covenant administration]. Hebrews 9:9 (KJV)
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.Does anyone see a reference to
Quote baptisms that “Thinker” claims is there?
Obviously from the language Quote Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances the reference is to OT practices.
I trust the Lord to give wisdom lest we fall prey to these manipulations and addition to His word.
Blessing to all –
Seeking
942767 said:
Quote Everyone who is saved both OT and NT is saved by Faith. This faith is manifest through the works of obedience to God. Baptism is an act of obedience to God. Marty,
If everyone is saved the same way in both covenants, then what is the difference between the two covenants? This dilemna is difficult to overcome.Quote Does that mean that we are saved by works. Peter said that the remission of sins was based in repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38). Therefore, baptism was indeed a work unto salvation.
Quote Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. The expression “propitiation” means that the wrath of God was redirected away from us and onto Jesus. Just as the lightning rod on a house would take the strike instead of the house, so Jesus took the wrath of God for us. The house gets no credit for anything in itself for diverting the lightning bolt. So we get no credit for any “work” we do.
You offered excerpts from the epistle of James which allegedly prove that new covenant salvation is by faith + works. But James was written to the last of the old covenant people who were living at the time. James was written at least two and one half decades before Paul's new faith alone gospel was revealed. In other words, the epistle of James was old covenant.
James was written while the foundation was still being laid and the “elementary principles” of Christ were still in effect.. The epistle of James was true and applicable when it was written.
But the book of Hebrews was written near the end of the building of the foundation and the author warned those Jews to “NOT lay again” the foundation. Paul said that he had laid the foundation (1 Corin. 3).
The problem with us in the modern church is that we think that every teaching of all the apostles were true at the same time and all at once. As the result we engage in “proof texting” pulling verses out of their hisorical context. James was written in the early stage of the transition between the old and new covenants. Hebrews was written when the foundation was near completion and the readers were warned not to turn back.
Paul later said that he had laid the foundation (1 Corin 3). The verb “have laid” is the past perfect tense. The foundation was done, completed and finished.
We are warned to now build upon that foundation AND TO NOT BUILD IT AGAIN. We build upon that foundation by the preaching of Paul's faith alone gospel which was “kept secret” but was revealed to us in the appropriate time.
Baptism belonged to the foundation and NOT the super structure itself. It's really that simple!
God bless,
thinkerthethinker…………..Good post, WE are now baptized with SPIRIT and FIRE, Water only makes you wet. Does nothing to change a person at all. Even John the baptist knew that, telling Jesus I have need to be Baptized BY YOU> May God hasten the day when all this mess will be straightened out.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2009,10:12)
Gene,Can you help me out? I wanted to understand your beliefs and listed them as I was understanding them asking if my understanding was correct.
I can not find the thread I asked under. Can you direct me please. I will check here for yourresponse to this inquiry.
Seeking
GB,
The inspired book of Acts is our guidebook.
It is replete with water baptisms.
Nothing has changed.Gene said:
Quote WE are now baptized with SPIRIT and FIRE, Water only makes you wet. Does nothing to change a person at all. Even John the baptist knew that, telling Jesus I have need to be Baptized BY YOU> May God hasten the day when all this mess will be straightened out. And if you're an immersionist water may make you cough and spit up. I have seen it. I have seen immersionist pastors warn a person to hold his breath and pinch his nose with his fingers before he/she is dunked. In some instances I have seen a person come up from the water panic stricken because water got in his/her lungs. What a farce! Yet they believe they please God even though Christ did ALL the SUFFERING in their behalf. When will God's people get with God's new covenant program?
God wants to treat us like adults. This is new covenant. But most “Christians” prefer to be treated like babes (old covenant). We give law to our children. But when they grow up we let them be free to serve humanity according to their own understanding. So God's new covenant is about serving Him according to the newness of the spirit (as a FREE adult) and not the oldness of the letter (as a babe).
WHEN WILL GOD'S PEOPLE WAKE UP?
thinker
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
There is a great deal of evidence that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew. If one translates this verse back into Hebrew it gives a much fuller picture.
First let’s define some of the key words from a Hebrew perspective.
Disciple = Follower
Name = Character trait
Father = He who gives strength to the family.
Son = offspring who is like the father
Holy = Set asside for a special purpose
Spirit = breath/ source of life
Baptize = emmerse (Gr)With these understandings in place look at the verse again.
Go therefore and make followers of all the nations, immersing them in the character traits of the one who gives strength to the family and of his offspring who is like Him and of the special breath which is set asside for the purpose of being the source of life.
The “Great Commission” is neither a Trinitarian proof text nor even a complete water baptism verse. Water baptism is only a shadow of the deeper emersion we are to have in the Character of God as shown through His son Jesus.
We worship our heavenly father through His son Jesus.
Worship = In our modern western culture worship is an action directed toward God and God alone. But this is not the case in the Hebrew Bible. The word shehhah is a common Hebrew word meaning to prostrate oneself before another in respect. We see Moses doing this to his father in law in Exodus 18:7. When the translators translate the word shehhah they will use the word “worship” when the bowing down is directed toward God but as “obeisance” or other equivalent word when directed toward another man. There is no Hebrew word meaning worship in the sense that we are used to using it in our culture today. From an Hebraic perspective worship, or shehhah is the act of getting down on ones knees and placing the face down on the ground before another worthy of respect.http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_worship.html
The life we live outside of Christ is only a shadow. The debates we get so excited about are mere tokens of the life we are to have in Christ.
In him do we live move and have our being. Through and in Jesus Christ do we again have access to the tree of Life. God is the source of all life. He exists. He lives. He is. He anxiously awaits to give life and life more abundantly to all those who by faith come through Christ blood sacrifice unto their own heavenly father and source of their life.
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