Is baptism needed for salvation?

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You say
“A foundation is laid once for all.”

So here are those foundations of Christian faith ready to be laid for all.
Heb 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

[SEEKING]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2009,11:06)

. The more time passes away the more stupid we get. God requires that we make a clean break from the old covenant. We must stop mixing the old with the new.

Thinker,

People will continually fail to seperate properply the new from the old. You talk of ancient construction methods to justify
discarding parts of the foundation. But discarding any part of a foundation is foolishness. Jesus is the chief cornerstone, a
cornerstone being that from which all else is lined up.

Beginning with the cornerstone, things flow quite easily –

Jesus expressed His desire:

Matthew 28:18-20(KJV)
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Peter understood and followed His desire:

Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptizied every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Paul understood too:

Acts 9:18 (KJV)
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized

First century belivers understood baptism under the new and old covenants and responded accordingly:

Acts 19:3-6 (KJV)
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. [When they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Following the example of early Christians, people who by faith in Jesus are baptized have been criticised for years. The critiques are raising their heads once again. For those who clearly understand new covenant baptism and old testament baptism, they can clearly seperate the covenants and build o a firm foundation throwing nothig away.

For those who adamantly refuse Christian baptism Jesus simply says:
Luke 6:46 (KJV)

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Is baptism a “work unto salvation?”

Luke 17:10 (KJV)
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

I believe enough has been shared for the honest heart to seperate things correctly. Trusting the Spirit to reveal truth
I shall end further discussion.

Thank you for all your thoughts in the matter.

Blessings to you,

Seeking

[/B]

[NickHassan]

Good post SEEKING,
If I have no welcomed you I do and to share that you have much to offer here.
Old and new?

Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

[KangarooJack]

Seeking said:

Quote

People will continually fail to seperate properply the new from the old. You talk of ancient construction methods to justify discarding parts of the foundation.  But discarding any part of a foundation is foolishness.  Jesus is the chief cornerstone, a cornerstone being that from which all else is lined up.

Seeking,
Please read my post again. I said that we should not use the materials that the foundation is made from and mix them in with the materials used to build the super structure. In other words, we should not mix the limestone with the superior materials. I did not say throw away the foundation. We are clearly told to NOT lay the foundation AGAIN. What is so hard to understand about this. Jesus used another metaphor to teach this:

Quote

And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins, (Mark 2:22).

In other words, we should not mix the old and the new covenants. We must make a clean break from the old. If not, then we end up dividing into factions and cults and all else. The reason the various denominations exist is because they cannot agree which parts of the old covenant apply today and which parts do not. But it's so easy. No part of the old covenant applies now. The immersionist versus the one who sprinkles calling each other heretics. They call each other heretics concerning the way the water was applied while ignorant of the plain fact that the ritual itself has been abolished. Their putting new wine into old wineskins!

We should not use the materials used in the foundation in the super structure also.

If you want to live under the old covenant and render obedience to God according to the old covenant letter then that is your choice. But Jesus said that the Father seeks those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. Paul taught this also,

Quote

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the NEWNESS of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter, (Rom. 7:6).

And again,

Quote

For the letter kills, but the spirit gives life, (2 Corinthians 3:6).

Seeking said,

Quote

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

This mandate was fulfilled (Colossians 1:23). It no longer applies. Today it is Paul's gospel alone that we are to preach. Hebrews explicitly says that baptism was among those “elementary principles” of Christ and that we are to leave those principles.

You said that baptism is a “work unto salvation.” You have proved my point. You have helped me demonstrate that baptism is old covenant. For under the new covenant salvation is NOT by works.

Quote

For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

blessings,
thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Paul was water baptised.

Was that wrong?
Does that make all of Acts wrong?

[942767]

Hi Kerwin:

I will agree with you on this one point:

Quote

One question we should ask ourselves is “what does God want of us?”  I can assure you that adherence to the true gospel fulfills what God desires from us.

And so, what is the true gospel according to you?

Sorry, I did not think that this had been posted and so, I posted it again with some additional comments.

[942767]

Hi Kerwin:

I will agree with you on this one point:

Quote

One question we should ask ourselves is “what does God want of us?”  I can assure you that adherence to the true gospel fulfills what God desires from us.

And so, what is the true gospel according to you?

One thing that my Heavenly Father taught me is to always allow for the possibility that I may be wrong in my understanding of the scriptures, and so, I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong. In fact, as part of my morning prayer every morning, I ask God to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will.

How about you, Kerwin. Is there any possibility that you have misunderstood the scriptures?

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2009,20:22)

942767 said: Quote This says leaving “the principles of the doctrine of Christ”, and you say that this refers to Old Covenant principles?   Marty, Yes! Look at Hebrews “line upon line and precept upon precept”. Those Jewish Christians were commanded to “leave” those things and to “not lay again” that foundation. It is the old covenant that was the “foundation”. They were commanded to “go on to perfection”. This refers to new covenant principles.They were told that the drawing back to those things amounted to crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to an open shame (vs.6). Going back to the old covenant was the apostasy that Hebrews was dealing with. Therefore, the “elementary principles” of Christ were those old covenant things that were needed during the interim between the old covenant and the new but had to finally be put away. Paul said this: Quote …Our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent and the day is at hand. Let us therefore, cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of Christ” (Rom. 13:11-12). The expression “salvation” in this instance referred to their total deliverance from Moses and the old covenant. Paul said that it was “nearer” than when they first believed. He said that the “night” [old covenant] was far spent and the “day” [new covenant] was at hand. They were to put off the “elementary principles” of Christ and put on in its place the “armor” of Christ. During the interim between the two covenants some of the external regulations like baptism were still necssary. But once the eternal day came those things were no longer necessary. We today are on the side of the complete fulfillment. blessings, thinker

Hi thethinker:

Posting this scriptures again for a closer look:

Quote

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The scripture states “doctrine of baptisms” (plural and so it may have included John's baptism), but included in these principles is the dotrine “of laying on of hand”.

Is this Old coventant or new covernant?

[SEEKING]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2009,15:03)

You said that baptism is a “work unto salvation.” You have proved my point. You have helped me demonstrate that baptism is old covenant. For under the new covenant salvation is NOT by works.

How manipulative!

Here is what I wrote,

Quote

Is baptism a “work unto salvation?” Luke 17:10 (KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

And used Luke 17:10 to say “it is NOT a work but simply obedience to Christ which merits nothing.

I shall conclude this again.

Seeking

[942767]

Hi thethinker:

Also, Verse 6:1 begins with the word “therefore”, and so it hinges on what was being said before which is:

Quote

Hbr 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Hbr 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

And the following verses:

Quote

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame

My understanding of this is that if a Christian backslides, he cannot come again back through repentance and water baptism.  This would be crucifying the Lord afresh and putting him to an open shame.   A backslider can come back just asking God for forgiveness and restoration to the body of Christ.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Baptism is not the works of the baptised but the obedient works of the saved baptiser.

[GeneBalthrop]

To ALL……….what makes you think if a person sins that means He has fallen away, where is that said in scripture?

peace and love to all………………………………..gene

[SEEKING]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 29 2009,16:22)

To ALL……….what makes you think if a person sins that means He has fallen away, where is that said in scripture? peace and love to all………………………………..gene

Gene,

Scripture states plainly that a person can fall from grace. It also states how:

Galatians 5:4 (KJV)  
   Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I understand that to mean if a believer returns to Judiasm and law keeping they reject Christ and He is of  no effect
to them.

Another passage seems to speak of one who once knew Christ
and the denies Him –

2 Tim. 2:12 (KJV)  
   If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

I must admit that I cannot conceive of some one denying Him
after owning Him, but there it is in the word.  

I do not believe that sinning equals falling away.  Refusing to repent and denying the Lord far exceeds forgiveable sin, it seems to me.

Seeking

[GeneBalthrop]

seeking……..I was talking about a persons sins, equaling falling away , I don't think it does either.

peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

[942767]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 30 2009,10:22)

To ALL……….what makes you think if a person sins that means He has fallen away, where is that said in scripture? peace and love to all………………………………..gene

Hi Gene:

Practicing sin wilfully without repenting after one has received knowledge of the truth is what I meant by my post, and here is a scripture which states the consequences:

Quote

Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[KangarooJack]

Seeking said:

Quote

How manipulative! Here is what I wrote, Quote   Is baptism a “work unto salvation?”

Seeking,
I wasn't trying to be manipulative. I misread your statement. It was an honest mistake.

When baptism was in effect it was indeed a work for salvation. Peter said,

Quote

Repent and let everyone of you be baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus for the REMISSION OF SINS and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

There it is! It is clear as a bell! Peter commanded them to be baptized for the remission of their sins and also to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Those who transfer baptism into our present age are therefore forced to say that a man cannot have his sins remitted if he is not baptized. He must also say that a man cannot have the Holy Spirit if he is not baptized.

Baptism was a work unto salvation. But Hebrews teaches clearly that it was on its way out with all the other “elementary principles” of Christ. And chapter 9 explicitly says that baptisms and external regulations were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order (9:9-10). The “new order” is the full administration of the new covenant.

If you insist on laying again the foundation of the “elementary principles” and require baptism for our age, then you must deny the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who are not baptized. And by this you crucify the Son of God again. We are done with the letter of the law and are completely under the “spirit” of it now. Please see it!

Paul said that we are not saved by any works whatsoever now (Eph. 2:8-9). And he said that his gospel fulfills the word of God.

Quote

I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to FULFILL the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but NOW is being revealed to His saints…warning every man and teaching every man…. (Colossians 1:24-28).

Please note all that Paul is saying here. He said he was a minister of the revelation that God gave to him and that his stewardship fulfilled the word of God. He said that he was warning every man. Then he proceeds in chapter 2 to warn us of the Judaizers. Judaizer. We are not under the foundational gospel Christ mandated for Israel. And we are warned in Hebrews to not lay that foundation again. We are under Paul's gospel now which is for all races of men. That gospel is faith alone!

blessings,
thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
You say
“When baptism was in effect it was indeed a work for salvation. Peter said,

Quote
Repent and let everyone of you be baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus for the REMISSION OF SINS and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

So whose work is it??

When does scripture say no man now needs water baptism?

[KangarooJack]

942767 said:

Quote

My understanding of this is that if a Christian backslides, he cannot come again back through repentance and water baptism.  This would be crucifying the Lord afresh and putting him to an open shame.   A backslider can come back just asking God for forgiveness and restoration to the body of Christ.

But chapter 9 says that ALL baptisms and external regulations were imposed UNTIL the time of the new order. The “new order” is the full administration of the new covenant. Once the new covenant age fully arrived we entered fully into obedience according to the spirit of the law.

Rather than say “Amen” God's people resist this marvelous new covenant way of God. They want to be under the “elementary principles” like children. But God wants to treat us like adults.

blessings,
thinker

[GeneBalthrop]

942767……….Well thin I guess you better kiss your ?? good by, because you still sin even though you know it, right. O but I forgot you and Nick are exception to the rest of man kind right. Pure hog wash! All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God , there is (non) righteous no Not (ONE). You either inter in by GRACE or YOU DON”T ENTER IN. God has concluded all under (SIN) that he might have mercy on ALL. Not just two little drop in the Sea of Humanity. FEAR mongering teaching changes no one in there hearts and has nothing to do with the LOVE of GOD. When men or women Sin they hurt there own selves, the are not hurting GOD. If what you say is true the we can write of all humanity, including King DAVID who know GOD Laws backward and forward, and took another mans wife and had her husband Uriah murdered, and on His death bed put out two hit contracts and even commanded his own son to do it. So for sure King David will not be there according to you and Nicks teachings. Pure Hog wash. All of us still sin even the Apostle Paul recognized that he still sinned , so i guess we can scrap him also. Our sins will not prevent us from inheriting the Kingdom of God because we will eventually by the power of God overcome them. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

[NickHassan]

GB,
Lots of words but little that is useful there.
Why not study the scriptures rather than just abusing folks.
You may even align your ideas with scripture and that would be of much benefit to you when you meet the Lord.

The old millstone or worse is the risk if we promote what is not written.

Luke 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

[Author]

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