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The thinker……….Are you talking about water baptism, or the baptism of Christ (spirit and fire) or both?
love and peace to you and yours……………………gene
Kerwin said:
Quote Anyone reading it can clearly see the writer listed a number of items the considered elementary teachings and not just baptism as you are insisting. The list starts with “repentance from acts that lead to death, and “faith in God” in verse one and then goes on to “instruction about baptisms”, “the laying on of hands”, “the resurrection of the dead”, and “eternal judgment” in verse two. So if as you say the writer is urging people to discard one of these from the gospel then it follows by logical reasoning that he must mean that all the rest must be discarded from the gospel. The conclusion is that you must believe that “faith in God” and “resurrection of the dead(Jesus) were also discarded from the gospel. I am of course assuming you are making a rational interpretation as God is a rational God. Now if you were to make a rational interpretation of verse 6 then you would realize that if a person is baptized with the true faith in their heart and then goes back to their old ways, “falls away”, and then is brought back to the true faith, “brought back to repentance” and is baptized again in faith they could be said to be crucifying Jesus a second time as they are dying with him and being resurrected as a new creation when baptized in faith.
Kerwin,
I never said “just baptism”. I am pointing out baptism specifically because this thread is about baptism. I am trying to avoid cluttering this thread with many subjects.Faith in God in Hebrews 6 should be understood in its old covenant sense of the term. God was leading His people out of old covenant faith into new covenant faith. Paul said:
Quote For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is being revealed OUT OF faith INTO faith Note that the gospel of Christ involves the coming out of one kind of faith and the coming into another kind of faith. I believe that Paul's first reference to faith is law-works faith and the second reference to faith is that which is apart from the law.
Quote But NOW the righteousness of God apart from the law is being revealed…through faith in Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21). Therefore, faith in God according to Hebrews 6 is old covenant faith and they were to abandon it. They were to stop offering sacrifices according to their old covenant faith.
The same is true concerning the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. Under old covenant faith the resurrection and eternal judgment were based in works. This is NOT true under the new covenant.
But getting back to baptism. Hebrews 9 says that baptism was imposed UNTIL the time of the new order.
Quote …gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal with only food and drink and baptisms, regulations for the body imposed UNTIL the time of the new order (Hebrews 9:9-19). Note that it says that baptisms were a regulation for the body imposed until the time of the new order. The “new order” is the new covenant age. Those Hebrew Christians were still partially under the old covenant. Therefore, baptism was still in effect. But God was leading them out of those “elementary principles” and when the new covenant took full effect baptism and all other external regulations were nullified.
Amen!
thinkerQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 28 2009,17:48) The thinker……….Are you talking about water baptism, or the baptism of Christ (spirit and fire) or both? love and peace to you and yours……………………gene
Both! It seems the Eunuch example obvioiusly involved water
as did the Acts 2:38 example.Yet, there is the “Spiritual” baptism John referred to:
MT 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
I believe both must be understood for their Spiritual worth and that they have no Spiritual worth when understood only as a “requirement” with some legalistic merit much like circumcision was understood by the Pharisees.
In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
(Col.2:11-12 NIV)Seeking
Hi thethinker:
Looking at Hebrews 6:1:
Quote Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, This says leaving “the principles of the doctrine of Christ”, and you say that this refers to Old Covenant principles?
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2009,14:21) Hi thethinker: Looking at Hebrews 6:1:
Quote Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, This says leaving “the principles of the doctrine of Christ”, and you say that this refers to Old Covenant principles?
942767,Has that anything to do with this Acts 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
word = logos
The word translated as doctrine is also logos = word
Jesus was sent to the children of Israel calling them to repent – they did not repent but crucified him – we are not to go back to the old order (covenant) there is a new covenant.
Hi Seeking:
I have had difficulty understanding the following scripture. Can you give me your understanding. Is this referring to the commandment in the Word to be baptised?
Here is the KJV – Ephes. 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (by the word, not,”which is the word.”“Word” here is “Rhema” which carries a different concept than “logos.”
What is the difference in the concept of Rhema and Logos?
Thanks,
MartyAbout Hebrews 6 which does not even mention the old covenant(law) but instead speaks of the elementary teaching of Christ which some people must assume is the old covenant. Then there is verse 6 which is obviously warning people not to fall away and come back to the belief that Jesus is Lord. It seems clear that the writer is warning those who are backsliding and so not progressing beyond the groundwork that was already laid for them.
I assure you whether it is under the old or new covenant the righteous lived by faith because no one can please God without faith just as it is written:
Hebrews 11:6(NIV):
Quote And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
It is also written:
Romans 8:8(NIV):
Quote Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God
Which is obvious speaking of works but I know from other scriptures though works are God working through the faith of a believer and it was not addressed to the people of the old covenant who did not have the Spirit mentioned in the next verse. I assure you the people of God eagerly desired to have that Spirit.
Romans 8:9(NIV)
Quote You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
To get that spirit you must believe and believe, repent of your sins, and be immersed just as it is written:
Acts 2:38-39(NIV):
Quote Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
Still I view this discussion about baptism to be a vain discussion despite baptism being necessary to be reborn in Spirit because getting emerged in water without believing in the true gospel of Christ is of no real benefit. I suppose you could call it an intellectual exercise good for mental stimulus but so are arguments about genealogies about which it is written:
Titus 3:9-11(NIV):
Quote But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2009,19:02) Hi Seeking: I have had difficulty understanding the following scripture. Can you give me your understanding. Is this referring to the commandment in the Word to be baptised?
Here is the KJV – Ephes. 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (by the word, not,”which is the word.”“Word” here is “Rhema” which carries a different concept than “logos.”
What is the difference in the concept of Rhema and Logos?
Thanks,
Marty
Here is a comment from the Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Critical commentary –“Take away the word, and what is the water save water? Add the word to the element, and it becomes a sacrament, being itself as it were the visible word.” The regenerating efficacy of baptism is conveyed in, and by, the divine word alone.”
The Matthew Henry commentary states, “That he might sanctify and cleanse it, with the washing of water by the word (v. 26)—that he might endue all his members with a principle of holiness, and deliver them from the guilt, the pollution, and the dominion of sin. The instrumental means whereby this is affected are the instituted sacraments, particularly the washing of baptism and the preaching and reception of the gospel.”
Wesley's Explanatory notes states, “That he might sanctify it through the word – The ordinary channel of all blessings. Having cleansed it – From the guilt and power of sin.By the washing of water – In baptism; if, with “the outward and visible sign,” we receive the “inward and spiritual grace.”
The “Peoples New Testament, a commentary written for easy learning for beginners, notes, “All commentators of repute in all bodies refer this to baptism. All in the church pass through the waters of baptism. But the washing of the water would be of no avail without the word. The power is in the word of the Lord which offers the gospel and commands baptism.”
That this forum has varied understandings – most documented somewhere by someone – is obvious. These are the longest standing and most widely accepted as the last quote points out.
Hope that opens some doors for you! Yes I believe the encouragement is to water baptism – but as I stated before –
it is not a legalistic, traditional, denominational excercise. It is a heart felt response in love to the sacrifcie of Jesus that ,with understanding, produces great spiritual benefits.Regarding Rhema/Logos – a simple explanation is when the light go on so to speak. The pesonal “Aha” “I see!” is Rhema.
It is used also in Rom.10:17 “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.“Word” (rhema) of Christ or the pesonal “Aha” “I see”.http://ati.iblp.org/ati/family/articles/concepts/rhema/
I hope this will be helpful to you.
Blessings – Seeking
You can read more here:Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2009,13:06) About Hebrews 6 which does not even mention the old covenant(law) but instead speaks of the elementary teaching of Christ which some people must assume is the old covenant. Then there is verse 6 which is obviously warning people not to fall away and come back to the belief that Jesus is Lord. It seems clear that the writer is warning those who are backsliding and so not progressing beyond the groundwork that was already laid for them. I assure you whether it is under the old or new covenant the righteous lived by faith because no one can please God without faith just as it is written:
Hebrews 11:6(NIV):
Quote And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
It is also written:
Romans 8:8(NIV):
Quote Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God
Which is obvious speaking of works but I know from other scriptures though works are God working through the faith of a believer and it was not addressed to the people of the old covenant who did not have the Spirit mentioned in the next verse. I assure you the people of God eagerly desired to have that Spirit.
Romans 8:9(NIV)
Quote You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
To get that spirit you must believe and believe, repent of your sins, and be immersed just as it is written:
Acts 2:38-39(NIV):
Quote Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
Still I view this discussion about baptism to be a vain discussion despite baptism being necessary to be reborn in Spirit because getting emerged in water without believing in the true gospel of Christ is of no real benefit. I suppose you could call it an intellectual exercise good for mental stimulus but so are arguments about genealogies about which it is written:
Titus 3:9-11(NIV):
Quote But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Hi Kerwin:I do believe that all who believe in God's testimony regarding what God has done for them in the person of Jesus Christ should repent and be baptised in water, but sometimes a person may receive the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water.
The prime example of this is Cornelius in Acts 10.
Water baptism is and action showing that a person believes and has repented. Without both water baptism has no meaning. A person will go down a dry sinner and come up a wet one.
My desire is God's bery best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
My post should have included – “You can read more on “Rhema” here
Quote (meerkat @ Jan. 29 2009,13:01) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2009,14:21) Hi thethinker: Looking at Hebrews 6:1:
Quote Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, This says leaving “the principles of the doctrine of Christ”, and you say that this refers to Old Covenant principles?
942767,Has that anything to do with this Acts 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
word = logos
The word translated as doctrine is also logos = word
Jesus was sent to the children of Israel calling them to repent – they did not repent but crucified him – we are not to go back to the old order (covenant) there is a new covenant.
Hi MK:I am not sure that I understand your point. Are you saying that “water baptism” is not a doctrine of the New Covenant?
Also, not all Jews rejected Jesus many were saved.
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2009,16:13) Quote (meerkat @ Jan. 29 2009,13:01) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2009,14:21) Hi thethinker: Looking at Hebrews 6:1:
Quote Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, This says leaving “the principles of the doctrine of Christ”, and you say that this refers to Old Covenant principles?
942767,Has that anything to do with this Acts 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
word = logos
The word translated as doctrine is also logos = word
Jesus was sent to the children of Israel calling them to repent – they did not repent but crucified him – we are not to go back to the old order (covenant) there is a new covenant.
Hi MK:I am not sure that I understand your point. Are you saying that “water baptism” is not a doctrine of the New Covenant?
Also, not all Jews rejected Jesus many were saved.
What I believe is that the water baptism was a part of the transitional period that existed for the Jews and gentiles who were pre 70AD judgment – Jesus came to warn the Jews of the judgment that was coming to them – John the baptist was baptising with water and preaching repentance, and prior to 70AD the physical temple still stoodHebrews 9:1-10
Hbr 9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hbr 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Hbr 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Hbr 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Hbr 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Hbr 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].
Hbr 9:7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:
Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
The time of reformation was completed in 70AD when the physical temple was destroyed, and yes I agree with you those that believed Jesus and fled when Jerusalem was surrounded were saved.
Quote (SEEKING @ Jan. 29 2009,13:55) 942767,Jan. wrote:Hi Seeking:
I have had difficulty understanding the following scripture. Can you give me your understanding. Is this referring to the commandment in the Word to be baptised?
Quote Here is the KJV – Ephes. 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (by the word, not,”which is the word.”“Word” here is “Rhema” which carries a different concept than “logos.”
What is the difference in the concept of Rhema and Logos?
Thanks,
Marty
Here is a comment from the Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Critical commentary –“Take away the word, and what is the water save water? Add the word to the element, and it becomes a sacrament, being itself as it were the visible word.” The regenerating efficacy of baptism is conveyed in, and by, the divine word alone.”
The Matthew Henry commentary states, “That he might sanctify and cleanse it, with the washing of water by the word (v. 26)—that he might endue all his members with a principle of holiness, and deliver them from the guilt, the pollution, and the dominion of sin. The instrumental means whereby this is affected are the instituted sacraments, particularly the washing of baptism and the preaching and reception of the gospel.”
Wesley's Explanatory notes states, “That he might sanctify it through the word – The ordinary channel of all blessings. Having cleansed it – From the guilt and power of sin.By the washing of water – In baptism; if, with “the outward and visible sign,” we receive the “inward and spiritual grace.”
The “Peoples New Testament, a commentary written for easy learning for beginners, notes, “All commentators of repute in all bodies refer this to baptism. All in the church pass through the waters of baptism. But the washing of the water would be of no avail without the word. The power is in the word of the Lord which offers the gospel and commands baptism.”
That this forum has varied understandings – most documented somewhere by someone – is obvious. These are the longest standing and most widely accepted as the last quote points out.
Hope that opens some doors for you! Yes I believe the encouragement is to water baptism – but as I stated before –
it is not a legalistic, traditional, denominational excercise. It is a heart felt response in love to the sacrifcie of Jesus that ,with understanding, produces great spiritual benefits.Regarding Rhema/Logos – a simple explanation is when the light go on so to speak. The pesonal “Aha” “I see!” is Rhema.
It is used also in Rom.10:17 “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.“Word” (rhema) of Christ or the pesonal “Aha” “I see”.http://ati.iblp.org/ati/family/articles/concepts/rhema/
I hope this will be helpful to you.
Blessings – Seeking
You can read more here:
Hi Seeking:Thanks for your help on this.
It does refer to the commandment to be baptized in water to someone who has come to God with a repentant heart believing His testimony o regarding what he has done for us through Jesus. It is “by the word” or the commandment for a believer to be baptized in water which is Rhema if I am understanding this correctly. It is the revelation knowledge of this principle to and individual.
Like what you have stated here:
Regarding Rhema/Logos – a simple explanation is when the light go on so to speak. The pesonal “Aha” “I see!” is Rhema.
May God Bless you and your family,
Thanks again for your helpQuote (meerkat @ Jan. 29 2009,14:43) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2009,16:13) Quote (meerkat @ Jan. 29 2009,13:01) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 29 2009,14:21) Hi thethinker: Looking at Hebrews 6:1:
Quote Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, This says leaving “the principles of the doctrine of Christ”, and you say that this refers to Old Covenant principles?
942767,Has that anything to do with this Acts 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
word = logos
The word translated as doctrine is also logos = word
Jesus was sent to the children of Israel calling them to repent – they did not repent but crucified him – we are not to go back to the old order (covenant) there is a new covenant.
Hi MK:I am not sure that I understand your point. Are you saying that “water baptism” is not a doctrine of the New Covenant?
Also, not all Jews rejected Jesus many were saved.
What I believe is that the water baptism was a part of the transitional period that existed for the Jews and gentiles who were pre 70AD judgment – Jesus came to warn the Jews of the judgment that was coming to them – John the baptist was baptising with water and preaching repentance, and prior to 70AD the physical temple still stoodHebrews 9:1-10
Hbr 9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hbr 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Hbr 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Hbr 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Hbr 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Hbr 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].
Hbr 9:7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:
Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
The time of reformation was completed in 70AD when the physical temple was destroyed, and yes I agree with you those that believed Jesus and fled when Jerusalem was surrounded were saved.
Hi MK:John's baptism was a baptism in water saying to the people that they should repent and believe that Jesus was the Christ, but the water baptism for a believer after Jesus resurrection is symbolic of our union with him in his death, burial and resurrection.
Here is a scripture of someone who had been baptized by John, and who is instructed by the Apostle Paul to be baptized in water after Jesus had been glorified.
Quote Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
942767(Marty) wrote:
Quote The prime example of this is Cornelius in Acts 10.
I can see your confusion with this as two different spirits are called Holy Spirits. The first spirit that descended on Cornelius and also King Saul in the Old Testament is God’s spirit while the second spirit is the reborn spirit of man created in the image of Christ and so sometimes called the Spirit of Christ.
I mentioned King Saul because he could not have entered the new covenant since Jesus had not yet been conceived, born, lived, died, and been resurrected.
It is obvious that some individuals on this board are ignorant of the old and new covenants both or they would not be spouting the strange doctrines they are. They do not even seem to know what being reborn in the image of Jesus our Lord means.
942767(Marty) wrote:
Quote Water baptism is and action showing that a person believes and has repented.
If you were speaking of John’s baptism then I might well agree with you but we are speaking of the baptism into the name of Jesus which means that you receive a new spirit created to be like Jesus, which Paul in his letter to the Romans refers to as the new man. This is a miraculous happening so I call immersion in water a miracle though technically it is the rebirth in spirit which is a miracle that occurs when one is immersed.
As I said though understanding baptism correctly is irrelevant unless you first understand the true gospel of Jesus our Lord and considering how many false teachers are in the world today that is impossible to accomplish unless God is guiding your heart. One question we should ask ourselves is “what does God want of us?” I can assure you that adherence to the true gospel fulfills what God desires from us.
942767 said:
Quote This says leaving “the principles of the doctrine of Christ”, and you say that this refers to Old Covenant principles? Marty, Yes! Look at Hebrews “line upon line and precept upon precept”. Those Jewish Christians were commanded to “leave” those things and to “not lay again” that foundation. It is the old covenant that was the “foundation”. They were commanded to “go on to perfection”. This refers to new covenant principles.They were told that the drawing back to those things amounted to crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to an open shame (vs.6). Going back to the old covenant was the apostasy that Hebrews was dealing with.
Therefore, the “elementary principles” of Christ were those old covenant things that were needed during the interim between the old covenant and the new but had to finally be put away. Paul said this:
Quote …Our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent and the day is at hand. Let us therefore, cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of Christ” (Rom. 13:11-12). The expression “salvation” in this instance referred to their total deliverance from Moses and the old covenant. Paul said that it was “nearer” than when they first believed. He said that the “night” [old covenant] was far spent and the “day” [new covenant] was at hand. They were to put off the “elementary principles” of Christ and put on in its place the “armor” of Christ.
During the interim between the two covenants some of the external regulations like baptism were still necssary. But once the eternal day came those things were no longer necessary. We today are on the side of the complete fulfillment.
blessings,
thinkerQuote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2009,02:22) Marty, Yes! Look at Hebrews “line upon line and precept upon precept”. Those Jewish Christians were commanded to “leave” those things and to “not lay again” that foundation. It is the old covenant that was the “foundation”.
A jump has been taken here that is not consistent with the “line upon line” reading. The “foundation” they were operating from was notQuote the old covenant. Rather, their foundation was the doctrine of Christ and those principles:
1 Cor. 3:10-11 (KJV)
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.When begun with a false premise, the conclusion regarding
“foundation” will also be false.Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote Rather, their foundation was the doctrine of Christ and those principles: 1 Cor. 3:10-11 (KJV)
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.Seeking,
You missed verses 12-13,Quote Now if anyone builds upon this foundation with gold,silver, precious stones, or wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the day shall declare it, because it will be revealed by fire…. Please note first of all that Paul said, “I have laid the foundation”. This is the past perfect tense. He was not still laying it when he wrote his epistle to the Corinthians. So the question is this: When did Paul lay that foundation? Answer: Before he was imprisoned and God revealed to him new covenant principles.
Paul said that if anyone builds upon the foundation with gold, silver and precious stones his work shall remain. But if he builds with wood, hay and straw his work will be burned up.
The precious stones represent the new covenant principles that God taught Paul while he was in prison. The wood, hay and straw represents the old covenant.
Again, Paul said that he had laid the foundation. He was NOT laying it still when he wrote the epistle. He then said that everyone must build upon that foundation with the precious jewels of the new covenant.
Therefore, those who require baptism today are building upon the foundation with things that will be burned up. Baptism was old covenant. It was an “external regulation” which according to Hebrews 9 was imposed UNTIL the new covenant came.
During his imprisonment Paul came to realize that we were delivered from the law so that we may serve according to the NEWNESS of the spirit and not the OLDNESS of the letter (Rom. 7). And Jesus instructed the woman at the well that the hour was coming soon that men would worship God in spirit.
So don't let anyone tell you that you must obey an external ordinance today. And don't you tell anyone that. For your work will be “burned up” if you do. The worship of God is altogether in spirit now. Jesus said the the Father seeks this manner of worship. (John 4).
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2009,09:27) Seeking,
You missed verses 12-13,Therefore, those who require baptism today are building upon the foundation with things that will be burned up. Baptism was old covenant. It was an “external regulation” which according to Hebrews 9 was imposed UNTIL the new covenant came.
Thinker,I did not miss the verses, they change nothing!
“The precious stones represent the new covenant principles that God taught Paul while he was in prison. The wood, hay and straw represents the old covenant”
This is your assumption about what you assume was Paul's prision experience without any collaboration from scripture.
Paul, as you point out -“had laid the foundation” but long before he was imprisoned. It is the New Covenant as Paul understood it.
Baptism was a part of but not all of the foundation.
Paul knew that you build on a foundation and you do not discard parts of it lest you have a weak building.So, you would have us to tear out the building blocks and build from there. You are constructing a house bound for
failure. But, as those Paul was speaking to, when we misunderstand the foundation we keep returning to it.I doubt either of us will come to understandings other than our current ones. I do believe others can see the simple meaning of the text in spite of our many words.
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote So, you would have us to tear out the building blocks and build from there. You are constructing a house bound for failure. But, as those Paul was speaking to, when we misunderstand the foundation we keep returning to it. Nothing is said about “misunderstanding” the foundation. A foundation is laid once for all. After this it is to be built upon. Paul employed a simple metaphor from physical reality and men still don't get it. Once the foundation is laid you move on. So I say “Yes”. We must discard the materials used for the foundation. We now must use the superior materials.
The foundation of a building in ancient times was made of cheap limestone. But the super structure itself was made of superior materials. Have you not read in Hebrews that the new covenant is superior to the old covenant? Just as a builder would not incorporate limestone into the super structure, so we should not incorporate old covenant materials into the new covenant building. And those who require baptism today are doing just exactly that! They are incorporating materials that are supposed to be used for the foundation and incorporating them in the super structure.
The result is a lopsided and unstable building. This is why men have broken off into so many denominations. Things would be different today if men built the building with the precious jewels of new covenant principles alone.
The more time passes away the more stupid we get. God requires that we make a clean break from the old covenant. We must stop mixing the old with the new.
thinker
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