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Hi Nick,
I hope you will carefully read my post from above.
You said that baptism is like the new circumcision, and you elude this to the physical ritual of immersing yourself in water. That we must undergo this physical ritual.
Romans 6 is not talking about a physical ritual of immersing yourself in water, the baptism here is us being cleansed of our sins through Christ’s death.
Christ’s death represents our baptism, we are washed clean (baptized) through his death.
Hi Nick,
On the other thread you said,
“He was baptised in the Spirit and now he baptised us in that Spirit.
Now God can be at work in us to will and to do. Phil 2.13”
Christ has indeed anointed men with GIFTS of the Spirit, and we are told that this was for bringing others into faith. The giving of these gifts of the Spirit is NOT the SAME as being BORN again of God of water and of the Spirit. When you are born of God you cannot sin, this is different from being counted as being righteous through your faith, this is when you become truly righteous. This occurs when you rise from the dead, or when those who are alive at Christ’s return are CHANGED, this CHANGE is being BORN of God, you have an immortal body that is not able to be tempted and thus is not able to sin. You walk in pure righteousness, which is why you are able to enter into God’s kingdom. You are not just perfect in faith, but now you have a body that has been made perfect that does not separate you from God through weak flesh that brings temptation. This is what Paul, who after he had been baptized and still found himself struggling with temptation to sin, had hope for, a body like that of the resurrected Christ.
There is NO scripture that says you have to go through water baptism in order to have God work in you. That is a major misconception, it is a LIE.
People who were baptized already had FAITH because God was already leading them, the baptism was a physical act to show others their inward heart, the heart that God KNEW ALREADY, He knew because He had led you to that faith. When you performed the baptism to show the apostle your faith you then were given A GIFT of the Spirit, which the purpose of that we are told specifically was not so that God could NOW lead you, but it was so you would have a GIFT to help draw in others to the FAITH that you already had before you were even baptized.
Hi Jodi,
The Spirit is given for all generations as Acts 2.39 shows.
The Spirit brings fruit and also gifts and it is wrong to divide these things as being only for certain times and purposes.
We know the gifts will pass but it is not for us to declare that they have passed.
Please read my post I just gave I didn’t see your last before I wrote that one.
I NEVER said it is for a certain time or purpose. I did ask about the multitude of “Christians” today who are being baptized by pastors, to draw attention to the fact that just because you undergo a water baptism doesn’t mean you are given gifts of God’s Spirit, neither does it mean that you are saved. Otherwise we would see a different world, we would see a lot of people speaking truth, a lot of people performing miracles. God knows those who are SAVED because He knows the work and Faith that He has accomplished in their hearts. God gives gifts of the Spirit as He pleases, and YOU DON’T have to be submerged into water to receive them, Moses certainly wasn’t nor other prophets. They were led by the Spirit into faith having seen Christ in the future. They didn’t undergo a water baptism in order to FIRST be led by God into this faith, nor to receive powers of the Spirit which they were given.
Hi Jodi,
Yes there are exceptions.
Philip led men to salvation in Jesus but left to others the laying of hands to receive the Spirit.
Simon Magus was baptised but not saved and not given the Spirit.
But the order established by God has not changed since the Spirit spoke through Peter at Pentecost.
Hi Nick,
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Me: How can the dead saints in the OT be born of water?
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (heart) shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not_____glorified.)
Ezk 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Me: The holy spirit was not given again from the conception of Christ till after he was resurrected from the dead (John 2:22). The holy spirit was not given with the promise of the human heart in it until Pentecost. In other words water is symbolizes the holy spirit. It symbolizes the holy spirit with the human heart of Christ in it after Pentecost.
Otherwise, you reconcile the verses above.
Correction:
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (heart) shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet __________ because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Me: The heart of Christ was not in the holy spirit until he had ascended into heaven and was glorified.
Hi Nick,
You: The type of all baptisms – Spirit, Fire – is water baptism.
Me: Water baptism is calling upon the name of the Lord to save you. It symbolizes dying with Christ and being resurrected with him. This is the baptism of the holy spirit. Fire is the trials that we go through to grow in the holy spirt.
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Psalm 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
Hi Nick,
Below is the account of Pentecost, these men were NOT immersed in water and then because of that the Spirit descended upon them. Being baptized of the Holy Spirit does not equate to water baptism, that is what John did, this is DIFFERENT. Baptism of the Spirit has no water involved, it equates to the Spirit resting upon you.
Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
Acts 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Nick let’s correct this teaching that has been preached falsely for quite some time. What can we see the scriptures are actually sayinging? How did people receive the Spirit at Pentecost? John baptized with water, they were baptized NOT with water but WITH the Spirit.
God baptizes you with the Spirit as He chooses. Jesus through God knew that men at Pentecost would receive the Spirit, the baptism here is the Spirit coming down and resting upon them and filling them with certain gifts. These gifts were given in order to draw others into faith.
Let’s look at Paul’s baptism, again no water.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” 17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,
The baptism was receiving the Spirit, not Paul being immersed in water and then receiving the Spirit.
Baptism of the Spirit is receiving a gift from the Spirit, and Paul was called to be a great apostle.
The reason why you are not seeing this is because you think that when Jesus said that to enter the kingdom of God you must be born again, you must be born of the water and of the Spirit, and you are equating that to a ritual of water baptism like that of which John performed. You are thinking one must be immersed in water and then they are given the Spirit and that is being born of the Spirit.
This understanding does not work,
First of all Paul or others were not first immersed with water before they received the Spirit. Second of all they received a gift, in order to bring others to faith, they were not made incapable of sin. Paul was baptized with the Spirit but he still struggled with temptation and sin, that is why he desired a body like Christ. He clearly could not have been considered actually born of God, because those born of God are neither tempted, neither do they sin.
Jesus tells us that we will be filled with the water of the fountain of life. Paul thirsted for this!! We die in faith, when we rise we are born of God, born of the water of the fountain of life and of the Spirit, where there is no temptation, sin is impossible, as we know longer have weak flesh that asks us to serve it in order to live, we now are truly freed from sin able to dwell in God’s kingdom.
Christ died for all, he paid the penalty for all sins, so that all people would not be held to the penalty of sin which is death, all are resurrected. It is only those who have faith in Christ that are raised being born of God entering into eternal life and God’s kingdom.
Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, we were free from the penalty but not free from temptation or sin itself. That occurs upon Christ’s second coming when the dead are raised and those alive at the time of his return are CHANGED, that change is being BORN of God and being set free from temptation and sin. This was Paul’s hope as he called himself a wretched man, even though he was a great apostle.
Hi TC,
I hope you will look at the scriptures above, as being “baptized” in the Spirit for Paul and those at Pentecost had nothing to do with water. John baptized WITH water, they were baptized WITH the Spirit.
Hi TC,
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.The Spirit that they received gave them gifts, it was given in order to bring UNITY of Faith, that Jesus was the Son of God a perfect man, the full measure of the anointed. By this FAITH they are counted as righteous and are worthy to receive eternal life upon rising from the dead.11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:With that FAITH they are counted as worthy to receive the water of the fountain of life, of which they receive when they rise from being dead to being alive.Hebrews 9:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.Prophets of the OT had faith in the coming Christ, they had faith that their sins would be paid for, they had faith that they would rise from the dead. David as we are told in Acts is STILL DEAD, he did not ascend to heaven. He sleeps the sleep of death, having died knowing that he would be raised and that his own descendant would be his master.1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.Hi Jodi:
You: As we are told in Acts, David is still DEAD, he did not ascend to heaven, he died knowing that he would sleep the sleep of death until Christ’s return. The FAITH that he had counted him as worthy to obtain the promise.
New American Standard Bible
Acts 2:29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.https://biblehub.com/acts/2-29.htm
Me: Most version do not have “is buried”
Contemporary English Version
Acts 2:34 David didn’t go up to heaven. So he wasn’t talking about himself when he said, “The Lord told my Lord to sit at his right side,https://biblehub.com/acts/2-34.htm
Most version do not have: ” is not ascended into the heavens:
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Me: All the saints from the OT forward had not received the “promise” yet until Pentecost.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Me: The promise of the holy spirit, i.e. with the sacrifice of Christ in it was received after Pentecost by both the OT saints and NT saints, both those that were dead and those alive afterwards.
Hi Jodi,
Those found clean and given an earnest of the Spirit now, if they ask for grace, seek the will of God and and knock on the doors of opportunity He offers, walking in the Spirit will see the kingdom before them growing brighter and brighter. They will not lose the Spirit but confirm their hope of eternal life.
Hi Jodi,
You:
I hope you will look at the scriptures above, as being “baptized” in the Spirit for Paul and those at Pentecost had nothing to do with water. John baptized WITH water, they were baptized WITH the Spirit.Me: I know that. I have always said that.
Being baptized with water is calling upon the Lord in repentance and showing that you accept the reality which comes next, the baptism of the holy spirit.
Hi TC,
You: Water baptism is calling upon the name of the Lord to save you. It symbolizes dying with Christ and being resurrected with him. This is the baptism of the holy spirit. Fire is the trials that we go through to grow in the holy spirt.
Me: This is NOT the baptism of the Spirit, such a baptism has nothing to do with water.
Jesus died saving ALL from the penalty of death, all are resurrected.
Those in Christ that are resurrected into eternal life, are resurrected into being born of God because they had FAITH in the true Christ. They know that by his death we are freed from the penalty of sin, that by his death we have been washed clean (baptized), our sins are not counted. What is counted for receiving eternal life in a resurrection however is our FAITH, and we have that faith because God has called us to to the truth of Christ, which was through a baptism/anointing of the Spirit. Not a baptism of water.
We have false pastors demanding that people receive a water baptism in order to be saved. They are just like blind Pharisees, practicing rituals thinking it makes them clean and saved.
As through Christ’s death our sins are not counted.
As through God’s Spirit leading us into faith of the true Gospel we are counted as righteous and worthy to obtain the resurrection, not one into judgment but one into eternal life.
As through being born again of the water of the fountain of life upon our resurrection, we are incapable of being tempted and thus incapable of sin, we have been made perfect creatures, perfect human beings like that of Jesus. The faith within our mind is combined with a body born of God, a perfect body.
Hi Jodi,
No magic.
The death of Jesus washed nobody clean.
Unless they obey him and seek baptism in his name they will die in their sins.
Hi Nick,
You said, “Those found clean and given an earnest of the Spirit now, if they ask for grace, seek the will of God and and knock on the doors of opportunity He offers, walking in the Spirit will see the kingdom before them growing brighter and brighter. They will not lose the Spirit but confirm their hope of eternal life.”
Almost agree to much of that.
Those found clean?
We are found righteous through faith, and by that we obtain the promise. Paul was not clean, that is why he called himself a wretched man and desired his mortality to be swallowed up unto life, because that is when he would truly be clean as sin would be found in him no more. Paul’s sins were not counted because Christ died for every sin paying the penalty of sin through his own death.
When we walk in faith we are being led by the Spirit, and we want the desires of the flesh to be put away. TC made a good point about this as do you. We recognize when we sin, and ask for forgiveness. We are walking with God building a relationship with Him, where He is causing us to recognize sin and desire the body that Christ has all the more. This is exactly the walk we see that Paul had. In Paul recognizing his short comings he longed all the more for a body born of God so that he could be perfect.
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