Is baptism needed for salvation?

[kerwin]

dwills.

Also how could you possibly think that someone humbly refusing to declare allah as God while watching their family and children be raped, tortured and beheaded believe in a false Jesus Christ.

Because I know I am not the judge, God is. When it comes to my perception of what is righteous vs his; I always loose.

[terraricca]

k

yes baptism is required but not the one in water ;
Lk 12:50 There is a terrible baptism ahead of me, and I am under a heavy burden until it is accomplished.(baptism does not always mean water according to Jesus words but an action)
Ro 6:4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

what Paul says is a new live by putting the flesh to dead just as Jesus did on the stake ,

Gal 3:27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism(his dead in the flesh) have been made like him.(a spiritual person that walks like him in truth)

Eph 4:5 There is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism,yes one time only can we take on this action to kill our flesh like Jesus did (but water would not do this )

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

it is for those reasons that all the apostles have driven all disciples to live a life like Jesus did and to pursue holiness and righteousness,to be acceptable to God as a good tree with good fruits

your view of the water being his mother birth water is ridicule at best ;for never in scriptures the so called birth waters are never been part of God’s prophecy ,

the water that John talks about is the baptism of John and the testimony of him this is the water and the blood well we all know that one ,

but address my other scriptures including 1 John 5;6

I am sure you will refuse to do so for those answers would show you what you don’t want to see ,

in your respond to me and your believe ;you make the baptism of the spirit being lower than the one of the water ;but you try to say they are going together but this is not so in scriptures you made that up ,

you also deny the witnessing of J the Bpt ;Jn 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
Jn 1:27 He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”Jn 1:33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

tell me how can someone recognized that someone was baptized by the holy spirit ,? and we know that Jesus baptized his apostles with the holy spirit ;

Jn 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

so did they were dipped in water ? NO why are you denying that what Jesus did was not the way for the disciples to baptized with the holy spirit ;and that all the other baptism are simply the baptism of repentance and so dip in water ;

now the scriptures that says the baptism in the name of Jesus ;what does it mean ? what does it give you ? where are we going from there ?

if you read 1 Corinthians ;

1Co 1:4 I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus.
1Co 1:5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—in all your speaking and in all your knowledge—
1Co 1:6 because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you.
1Co 1:7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.
1Co 1:8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1Co 1:11 My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
1Co 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas’”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
1Co 1:16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul does not talk about water baptism but about the knowledge that bring us to Jesus Christ and follow his example and our faith in his promise that God his father had given him for us ,

it appear to me that the baptism of John was change into the purpose of the name of Jesus and his sacrifice ;but religion took this over for greedy reasons and division ,

so we cannot rely on water baptism as being the true sign to recognized the true christians but on the fruits they produce ,this is what Jesus has always preached ,

I am not against baptism I do not trust those who baptize .and preach baptism for good reasons

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

I understood your point from Luke 12:50 and the wording that verse is also metaphysical with baptism being used to symbolize a concept. It does not negate the fact that being immersed in water is an early step in following the one gospel of Christ. Peter reveals this when he states “doers anyone forbid these water to be baptized” and then the next sentence of Acts informs us they were immersed in the name of Jesus Christ.

I know some believe they were immersed by the Holy Spirit when it came on all the Gentiles that heard Peter’s message but Scripture does not literally say that. They mystery is whether it is implied by those and equivalent words of Scripture. This question is resolved when it is considered that there are congruent cases in the old testament where the Spirit was put on the seventy elders and King Saul and yet they were not immersed in the Holy Spirit. In short it is neither literally stater or implied that the Gentiles that heard the message were baptized in the Holy Spirit when they heard the words of the gospel. It thus follows that those that believe that the Gentiles were immersed in the Spirit when the Holy Spirit was poured on them are presumptuous.

In the book of acts the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ or the equivalent is mentioned in Acts 2:38-41, Acts 8:12-16, Acts 10:47-48, and Acts 19:5.

John’s baptism is mentioned in Acts 1:5, 1:22, 10:37, 18:25, and 19:3-4.

With only a one exceptions the rest are generically phrased so the particular baptism must be determined by the context.

That exception is Acts 1:5 which is also the strongest evidence that when the Spirit came to rest on them they were immersed in the Spirit. The weakness is that conclusion it only infers (hints) that and they may have been immersed in the Spirit at a different time.

So from this those baptisms not specified are baptisms of the new covenant and so baptisms in the name of Jesus Christ. It also inconclusive whether or not having the Holy Spirit poured out means being baptized in the Spirit.

[terraricca]

Kerwin

the point I make here in Luke 12;50 ,is that the word Baptism is used ,but not for dip in water and so this would also reflect that the true baptism in Christ is not of water but of a live long ,until death to serve God and his son that he has send with all our soul /mind/strength/heart

this is also why Paul says to look in his way of life how he serve his lord his God in truth ,

the holy spirit was only given at the will of God not of man ,

serving God and his son does not start with a dip of water but with pure reflection from the heart and mind by hearing the gospel (understand that in those days not many could read and write ) so today it would include all that read the scriptures and are drawn toward the believe in the good news of Jesus and his father ,this would be the true faith when they produce the fruits thereof, disregarding if they find someone out of the blue sky that baptize in water dip,

your conclusion does not make sense for you have to ignore what I said what can well stand its ground ; the questions i ask is can a faith without water dip be a true faith in the truth of God ? yes or no

would your faith with water dip be the only true faith in God and his son ? yes or no

let understand that in both cases they produce the fruits of that faith .

you seem to follow and interpreting the movements of some disciples while i tend to follow Jesus Christ and the spirit of his teachings ,

[NickHassan]

hi KW,

The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God,

The Spirit does not mislead.

 

Flesh contributes nothing.

• This reply was modified 9 years ago by Admin.

[Proclaimer]

Hi kerwin.

The only baptism literally mentioned in Acts 8 and 19 is baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and Peter asked who would deny water to those that were to baptized in the name of Christ.

You do not have to be baptized to be filled with the Holy Spirit according to scripture itself. To prove this all we have to do is look in the Bible and pick out the verses that have the following text: “filled with the Holy Spirit”.

• Luke 1:41, “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.”
• Luke 1:67, “And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying . . . “

Here we see that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she had not been baptized. The same is true with Zacharias.

• Acts 2:4, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.”

In Acts 2:4, people were filled with the Holy Spirit and were not baptized until later on (2:38).

• Acts 10:44–48 “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentilesalso. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days,”

It is obvious from the above that before water baptism, some had already received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were speaking in tongues as evidence of that. Therefore, it is not always necessary to be baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit. But it is a command, and we will be baptized in water if we have the opportunity because those that love God are obedient to God. If we have the opportunity and we choose NOT to be baptized in water, then that shows the extent of our commitment to follow God.

 

[Proclaimer]

To kerwin.

The only baptism literally mentioned in Acts 8 and 19 is baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and Peter asked who would deny water to those that were to baptized in the name of Christ.

First off it says repent. If you do not do that and you are baptized in water, then you cannot expect that water baptism to save you, can you?

Secondly, the result of true repentance and water baptism is the sealing of your salvation with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now think about this for a minute. If God’s spirit can live in a man who was a sinner and God cannot tolerate sin, then it is clear that the Holy Spirit can only come inside a person who has his sins forgiven. And this has happened to people before water baptism as demonstrated in my previous post.

Water baptism on its own will not save you.

John 20:31
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name”.

I John 5:1
“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God…”

I John 5:13
“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God”.

Know the scriptures. They will teach you true doctrine. Consider the full counsel of scripture. Taking a single verse or a few verses here and there often removes the overarching context. Look at them all.

[terraricca]

can anyone here tell me how to go about a baptism in the name of Jesus

I know the one of John the baptist he just says repent and dip you in water ;the fact that the Jews went to him to be dipped in water was clear of wanting to repent ,

[terraricca]

N

that is true but satan was not listening I guess

[Proclaimer]

The baptism would be the same as John’s except it is in the name of Jesus Christ.

But the important thing to remember is that John baptized with water, but Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:4-5
Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

So repentance followed by baptism in water in the name of Jesus Christ, leads to receiving the Holy Spirit.

[terraricca]

t8

your last sentence does it not contradict your previous statement in your quotes ? I think so

and one more thing it is repentance and water baptism that lead to the holy spirit for the holy spirit is given according to the will of God ;and that no man controls ;

RO 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

HEB 2:4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

so in my understanding it will not be wise to attach the holy spirit to the baptism for the first is by God’s will the second is by the will of man ,

but you did not answer my question about baptism I would like to know what it is said ? and how to proceed ?

and again was baptism not only for Jews until Cornelius ?

the point I make here in Luke 12;50 ,is that the word Baptism is used ,but not for dip in water and so this would also reflect that the true baptism in Christ is not of water but of a live long ,until death to serve God and his son that he has send with all our soul /mind/strength/heart

being faithful in our faith in Christ is life given

[kerwin]

t8,

Here we see that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she had not been baptized. The same is true with Zacharias.

She was under the Old Testament which is different from the new testament just as the words of Jeremiah testify.

Jeremiah 31:31-33Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So the Spirit she was filled with did not write the Laws on her heart not did it put the Law into her as that was promised for a later time. Instead, as a prophet of old she spoke as she was carried along by the Spirit as she manifested a gift of the Spirit.

Hebrews quotes from that passage twice but the second time makes my point with these words

Hebrews 10:12-18Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

So not all appearances of the Holy Spirit and baptism in the Holy Spirit or there would be no need for the new covenant that Jesus sealed with his blood.

The only times I know of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is those words expressed by John and similar words by Jesus in Acts that Peter quoted later in the same book. Sadly, none of them give us any details about what baptism in the Holy Spirit means. It therefore has to be a derived doctrine.

[kerwin]

t8,

So repentance followed by baptism in water in the name of Jesus Christ, leads to receiving the Holy Spirit.

Yes, that is what Peter’s words in Acts 2:38 say with the word ” and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The thing is the King Saul received the Holy Spirit without being immersed in the name of Jesus. How can that be if writing the Law on the hearts of believers and putting it in them is a new thing with the establishment of the new covenant?

[NickHassan]

hi KW,

All in authority have an anointing from God.

Why would you confuse this with the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

[kerwin]

Nick,

I am not sure what your words mean.

I assume you are saying Elizabeth has an anointing from God to speak his word and so was filled by the Holy Spirit. If so then you are also saying that anointing is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If I am correct then I have no disagreement with you.

[terraricca]

kerwin ?

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,

Do you not understand baptism in the Spirit?

You confuse it with other anointings?

[kerwin]

Terrarica,

I will need to read through our conversation to determine where we were in it.

[kerwin]

Nick,

I am not sure baptism in the Spirit is called an anointing in Scripture.

I do know we are told that Spirit gives birth to spirit and that is done when the Law is put in and written on the heart of a student-follower of Jesus. That occurs when a believer has has been immersed in water and is coming out of it. If you want to call this anointing then fine.

The other instance of the Spirit being received is when it gives gifts and that occurs both to those in and out of the new covenant.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,

Jesus promised that his followers would be baptised in the Spirit.

What did this mean to you and when did it happen and what changes were manifested?

[Author]

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