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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2005,02:47) Hi k,
Most will not be saved through repentance, faith, water and Spirit baptism. Far more will ignore the message than those who obey and enjoy the freedom from judgement of the first resurrection. But that is the best way.
Most will be saved through the second resurrection which, unlike the first does mean judgement and judgement of works. This is God's mercy towards the ignorant, but merciful. It is not the door of the sacrificial lamb, the way preached on how to enter the kingdom.
If you choose to gamble that your works will be sufficient to be found as a sheep among the goats then you have that choice. The safe way is to follow Jesus into his death.
“Whatever you did for the least of these my brothers you did for me”
Do you believe that once you've been baptized in water you are eternally saved?The only thing I can see within the water baptism is that it's an expression of our desire to seek God.
1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
When we make the choice to be water baptized we are appealing to God that we want to be saved.
This appeal is manifested in the fact the we actually get water baptized but the true repentence takes place within the heart in which God sees.
True,
The prodigal son recognised his sinful fate, turned back to the father and walked back.
But he was not allowed to bring his filth into the kingdom but clothed with the robes of righteousness to cover that offensive state. Such is what God requires.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2005,03:49) True,
The prodigal son recognised his sinful fate, turned back to the father and walked back.
But he was not allowed to bring his filth into the kingdom but clothed with the robes of righteousness to cover that offensive state. Such is what God requires.
The covering is not the water baptism but rather the righteousness of Christ. We are covered with the righteousness of Christ the momnet we truly repent and turn to God but cleansing is done daily as we continue to walk in the light of truth we place ourselves under the unbrella of Jesus' Sacrific.1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
The work Jesus did on the cross was for us but we have to apply it. Remember, the lamb of the OT was slain for sin but it was the sprinkling of its blood that cleansed the sinner.
We have to put on the new man.
Ephesians 4:23-24 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in righteousness and true holiness.
The robe was made through Jesus. The Father places the robe on us when we enter into the family. We have to keep the robe on or be found at the wedding feast without the right garment and be tost out.
Matthew 22:8-3 “Then he said to his servants, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' “So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. “So he said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. “Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Hi k4c,
Repentance alone is not enough. Faith alone is not enough. But both are essential.
But we have to come to the gate of the sheep and go through that gate.
We must die and be buried in his him though baptism in his name.
Efforts at self redemption are pointless.“Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies it remains but a single seed” Jn 12
“Whoever wants to save his own life will lose it”
Once one is reborn into Christ then we still need to wash our feet but we are clean in God's sight covered with the righteousness of Christ. Repentance and baptism cleans the inside of our cup, something the Pharisees were unable to achieve by their efforts at self righteousness,such that we are fit to contain the Spirit of Holiness. We need to walk through the dusty world and not judge and be refreshed daily maintaining our attitude of forgiveness of others to be kept clean and not judged in the eye of God.
Jn 13 10
“..He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean, and you are clean but not all of you”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2005,18:05) Hi k4c,
Repentance alone is not enough. Faith alone is not enough. But both are essential.
But we have to come to the gate of the sheep and go through that gate.
We must die and be buried in his him though baptism in his name.
Efforts at self redemption are pointless.“Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies it remains but a single seed” Jn 12
“Whoever wants to save his own life will lose it”
Once one is reborn into Christ then we still need to wash our feet but we are clean in God's sight covered with the righteousness of Christ. Repentance and baptism cleans the inside of our cup, something the Pharisees were unable to achieve by their efforts at self righteousness,such that we are fit to contain the Spirit of Holiness. We need to walk through the dusty world and not judge and be refreshed daily maintaining our attitude of forgiveness of others to be kept clean and not judged in the eye of God.
Jn 13 10
“..He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean, and you are clean but not all of you”
Very good points…I believe the same.How the inside of the cup gets clean is by the washing of he word of God.
The Bible speaks of the word of God being a lamp not to the mind but rather to the feet. Our mind receives the word of God so our walk will be right with the Lord.
Quote (k4c @ Nov. 17 2005,02:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2005,02:47) Hi k,
Most will not be saved through repentance, faith, water and Spirit baptism. Far more will ignore the message than those who obey and enjoy the freedom from judgement of the first resurrection. But that is the best way.
Most will be saved through the second resurrection which, unlike the first does mean judgement and judgement of works. This is God's mercy towards the ignorant, but merciful. It is not the door of the sacrificial lamb, the way preached on how to enter the kingdom.
If you choose to gamble that your works will be sufficient to be found as a sheep among the goats then you have that choice. The safe way is to follow Jesus into his death.
“Whatever you did for the least of these my brothers you did for me”
Do you believe that once you've been baptized in water you are eternally saved?
Hi,
That is the theory but it is possible to throw that salvation away.
2Tim 2.11
” It is a trustworthy statement;
For if we have died with him, we will also live with him
If we endure , we will also reign with him;
If we deny him, he also will deny us;
If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself”Quote (k4c @ Nov. 17 2005,20:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2005,18:05) Hi k4c,
Repentance alone is not enough. Faith alone is not enough. But both are essential.
But we have to come to the gate of the sheep and go through that gate.
We must die and be buried in his him though baptism in his name.
Efforts at self redemption are pointless.“Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies it remains but a single seed” Jn 12
“Whoever wants to save his own life will lose it”
Once one is reborn into Christ then we still need to wash our feet but we are clean in God's sight covered with the righteousness of Christ. Repentance and baptism cleans the inside of our cup, something the Pharisees were unable to achieve by their efforts at self righteousness,such that we are fit to contain the Spirit of Holiness. We need to walk through the dusty world and not judge and be refreshed daily maintaining our attitude of forgiveness of others to be kept clean and not judged in the eye of God.
Jn 13 10
“..He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean, and you are clean but not all of you”
Very good points…I believe the same.How the inside of the cup gets clean is by the washing of he word of God.
The Bible speaks of the word of God being a lamp not to the mind but rather to the feet. Our mind receives the word of God so our walk will be right with the Lord.
Hi,
The seed must fall to the ground and die. We die in water baptism.
Rom 6.3
” Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus have been baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death..”
Then we are watered with the word. We cannot not die but only grow.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2005,21:40) Hi,
The seed must fall to the ground and die. We die in water baptism.
Rom 6.3
” Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus have been baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death..”
Then we are watered with the word. We cannot not die but only grow.
Once again you make some very good Scriptual points.Praise the Lord for your insight…
Hi k4c,
Jesus said
“follow me”
If he had not made the way so easy then that would mean scourging and crucifixion for all of us.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2005,03:21) Hi k4c,
Jesus said
“follow me”
If he had not made the way so easy then that would mean scourging and crucifixion for all of us.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I think your saying the way is easy. Jesus never promissed an easy way. He said the way is narrow and few find it. He says we will suffer as He suffered. He says the Spirit wars against the flesh. He says unless we pick up our cross daily we can't be His disciple. The Bible teaches that we are as sheep going to the slaughter. We will loose all for the sake of knowing Jesus. Mothers will come against daughters, fathers against sons, wives against husbands. The way is nowhere mentioned in the Bible as easy. We die daily and this is not any easy thing.Many blessings
Hi k4c,
Point taken.Thank you.
But the entry through the gate is comparatively easy compared with what suffering the Lamb submitted to on our behalf-except for man's pride. And the yoke which is placed on us is easy and the burden light, compared with the yoke and burden he bore.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2005,15:28) Hi k4c,
Point taken.Thank you.
But the entry through the gate is comparatively easy compared with what suffering the Lamb submitted to on our behalf-except for man's pride. And the yoke which is placed on us is easy and the burden light, compared with the yoke and burden he bore.
Amen to that…Hi guys,
This has been an interesting discussion and I can see both sides to what is being said here, although I recognise that you also agree with each in many ways too. I will approach this subject with an open mind and a heart that is willing to learn.
Indeed if we are cups, then in our own effort we can only clean the outside and it is the work of Christ that enables the inside of the cup to be clean. Water baptism is a physical act that as said in this discussion is an appeal and declaration that we are laying our lives down in death and raising up a new man in Christ.
Of course it's not as if the water itself cleanses us from the sin, if that were the case then a shower every moring would wash away my sins. Surely when we are baptised in water that declaration is enacted by God and he fills us with his Spirit. Of course being filled with God's Spirit can only happen when the vessel is clean and we know that we are not saved by works, rather we are saved by our faith and belief in God who is the one who does/did the work.
I personally think that the one baptism is the baptism of the Spirit, but I also think that we can receive the Holy Spirit through water baptism.
Case in hand: If water baptism is the actual thing that saves us, then that opens the possibility that a man can live a sinful life and upon his death bed, be baptized in water and then be with the Lord. In fact I have read that this very thing is what Constantine did, (in case there was indeed a judgment). We also know that Constantine did many other dubious works in the name of Christ and his Roman Kingdom.
It does seem more scriptural to me that water baptism at the end of ones sinful life is not going to save you at all, because it is the baptism of the Spirit that counts. Or to put it another way, it is the work of God, the word of God as mentioned, and that relationship that ensures that you do indeed belong to God.
The way I see it is that baptism in water is the declaration and upon that declaration we are filled with the Spirit. As it is written: “Be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”. In another scripture it simply says “be baptized and you shall be saved”. But why are we saved through baptism? Surely it is the Spirit of God dwelling in us that gives us eternal life even though we are clothed in a mortal body?
Of course we see that both, men who were baptized in water and some who were not, received the Holy Spirit. We also see that those who received the Holy Spirit first were baptized in water later. In order to make a declaration toward men and God perhaps?
So is it that water baptism is the declaration, the way we ask God to save us, and is it baptism in the Spirit that is the actual process by which we are saved? I have also read that the context of being filled with the Spirit is a continual one. “Keep being filled with the Spirit”.
I would like to see this discussion continue and it is great to see that those who have spoken here have been patient and understanding toward each other.
I have moved this discussion from “General Questions” to “Biblical Discussions”, as this forum deals with doctrine and scripture.
Thanks for you patience.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2005,00:10) Hi guys, This has been an interesting discussion and I can see both sides to what is being said here, although I recognise that you also agree with each in many ways too. I will approach this subject with an open mind and a heart that is willing to learn.
Indeed if we are cups, then in our own effort we can only clean the outside and it is the work of Christ that enables the inside of the cup to be clean. Water baptism is a physical act that as said in this discussion is an appeal and declaration that we are laying our lives down in death and raising up a new man in Christ.
Of course it's not as if the water itself cleanses us from the sin, if that were the case then a shower every moring would wash away my sins. Surely when we are baptised in water that declaration is enacted by God and he fills us with his Spirit. Of course being filled with God's Spirit can only happen when the vessel is clean and we know that we are not saved by works, rather we are saved by our faith and belief in God who is the one who does/did the work.
I personally think that the one baptism is the baptism of the Spirit, but I also think that we can receive the Holy Spirit through water baptism.
Case in hand: If water baptism is the actual thing that saves us, then that opens the possibility that a man can live a sinful life and upon his death bed, be baptized in water and then be with the Lord. In fact I have read that this very scenario is what Constantine did, (in case there was indeed a judgment). We also know that Constantine did many other dubious works in the name of Christ and his Roman Kingdom.
It does seem more scriptural to me that water baptism at the end of ones sinful life is not going to save you at all, because it is the baptism of the Spirit that counts. Or to put it another way, it is the work of God, the word of God as mentioned, and that relationship that ensures that you do indeed belong to God.
The way I see it is that baptism in water is the declaration and upon that declaration we are filled with the Spirit. As it is written: “Be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”. In another scripture it simply says “be baptized and you shall be saved”. But why are we saved through baptism? Surely it is the Spirit of God dwelling in us that gives us eternal life even though we are clothed in a mortal body?
Of course we see that both, men who were baptized in water and some who were not, yet they received the Holy Spirit. We also see that those who received the Holy Spirit first were baptized in water later. In order to make a declaration toward men and God perhaps?
So is it that water baptism is the declaration, the way we ask God to save us, and is it baptism in the Spirit that is the actual process by which we are saved? I have also read that the context of being filled with the Spirit is a contual one. “Kepp being filled with the Spirit”.
I would like to see this discussion continue and it is great to see that those who have spoken here have been patient and understanding toward each other.
Very well put t8…Throughout the NT we see Jesus bringing us a heavenly understanding of the law and all the works of salvation within mankind.
John 3:12 “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Many of the things that Jesus ushered in through the NT have a earthly understanding with a heavenly application.
The literal water baptism had an earthy understanding with a heavenly affect behind it.
If we just look at the water in itself we can miss the spiritual application of it and miss out on understanding the cleansing work of the word through the Spirit.
Jesus asked this very question to people who represented God.
Mark 11:29-33 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me. And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.
The baptism of John is both of heaven and earth. God tells us that He uses the things we can see and understand in creation to help understand the things we can't see i.e. spiritual.
Romans 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
God has always used literal created things to help us understand spiritual truth.
Water baptism ushers us into the new covenant. Being dunked under water makes no earthy sense to those who are not seeking God but to those who are turning to God its a point of entrance into the new covenant relationship. These things seem foolish to the carnal mind but this is how God tests our true desire and willingness to die to the flesh and the pride that goes along with it. It's humbling and embarassing being publicly dunked under water. But what better way to test the true heart of those seeking God through a willingness to die to self in order that we may find Him.
1 Corinthians 1:20-21 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
These foolish things of God is how He is able to draw His people out of the world.
If God says be dunked under water and I will make your slate clean then your slate is clean whether we believe its clean or not, whether we have a spirit filled experience or not.
Praise God for the foolishness of His wisdom because in His foolishness we too can find our true brothers and sisters…
Many blessings
Hi k4c,
Good stuff.
The proof that baptism in water is insufficient by itself is the example of the magician Simon in Acts 813
” Even Simon himself believed ;and after being baptised, he continued on with Philip, as he observed signs and great miracles taking place he was constantly amazed”Yet Peter said to him in v 21
” You have no part or portion in this matter for your heart is not right before God. Therefore repent…”He had never repented though he had believed and been baptised in water though not the Spirit.
“Repent, and each of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins..”
“Unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
The Spirit of God in Peter recognised the problem and dealt with it. Out of Simon's mouth came what his heart was full of. But Philip had done no wrong to baptise him as he was being an obedient servant and it was not his role to judge the motives of those who came to him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2005,03:05) Hi k4c,
Good stuff.
The proof that baptism in water is insufficient by itself is the example of the magician Simon in Acts 813
” Even Simon himself believed ;and after being baptised, he continued on with Philip, as he observed signs and great miracles taking place he was constantly amazed”Yet Peter said to him in v 21
” You have no part or portion in this matter for your heart is not right before God. Therefore repent…”He had never repented though he had believed and been baptised in water though not the Spirit.
“Repent, and each of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins..”
“Unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
The Spirit of God in Peter recognised the problem and dealt with it. Out of Simon's mouth came what his heart was full of. But Philip had done no wrong to baptise him as he was being an obedient servant and it was not his role to judge the motives of those who came to him.
Very true..There is a certain heart that is need for baptism to blessed of God.
Outwardly keeping the law perfectly as the Pharisees did is not the heart needed and neither is fearing judgment only.
Luke 3:7-8 Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
The fruit of true repentence is a broken and contrite heart.
Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart These, O God, You will not despise.
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