Is baptism needed for salvation?

[Arnold]

Quote (Laurel @ May 25 2010,02:08)

Quote (Arnold @ May 22 2010,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2010,18:53) Hi L, Jesus fulfilled Torah. Have you not been joined with his victory yet? Now the sons of God are led by the Spirit.[Rom8] Yes, Nick you are so right, but will Laurel believe you?  I have been gone and I am Arnold now which is my Grandfathers name.  You know how funny this was?  First it told me that they could not find an account with that members name.  Then when I registered sgain it told me that they already had a member by that name…..funny….. Irene   Till Heaven and earth pass not one yood nor one flourish will pass from the Torah till ALL is fulfilled. Has heaven and earth passed? I guess i missed it! Fulfilled does not mean to put an end to else there would be no need for a Savior. Understand? You need the Torah to define sin, else how can you repent of what you know not of? Try keeping the commands and see for yourself why you need a Savior, or you can just sit back and watch like it like a TV and you are just an observer. I prefer to put on my sandals, pick up my execution stake and follow my Master Yahushua the True Messiah. Try to follow in His footsteps, like you are supposed to do if you are a genuine believer. Or you can continue pretending like everyone else! The word fulfill means to give full meaning, so get over it!

Laurel, Laurel the Torah is the first five Books of the Old Testament, and Old covenant, which we are not under.  We are under the New Covenant in Luke 22:20…”This cup is the new covenant in My blood which is shed for you.”
Then Jesus gave us the great Commandment in
Math. 22:37 Jesus said to him:” You shall Love Your God with all of your heart and all of your Soul, and with all of your mind.”
verse 38 This is the first and great commandment.
verse 39 “And the second is like it”You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
verse 40 On these two commandments hang all of the Law and the Prophets.”
As I said before, it is Jesus Words and I am not going to deny them.  
Then Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount magnified the Law and made it Spiritual, now we not keep the great Commandment in the lettter of the Law but also in the Spirit in our hearts.  Thinking and lusting after a woman now is already committing Adultery.  If you hate your Brother, you have commited murder in  your heart, That is why Jesus said that the road is narrow and few will find it….I will stand on this until the cow's come Home no matter what you want to belief, I do what I think is right.  If you want to keep the Torah be my guest, but it is not right of you to constantly telling me that I should……
Peace and Love Irene

[Laurel]

Quote (Arnold @ May 25 2010,03:29)

Quote (Laurel @ May 25 2010,02:08) Quote (Arnold @ May 22 2010,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2010,18:53) Hi L, Jesus fulfilled Torah. Have you not been joined with his victory yet? Now the sons of God are led by the Spirit.[Rom8] Yes, Nick you are so right, but will Laurel believe you?  I have been gone and I am Arnold now which is my Grandfathers name.  You know how funny this was?  First it told me that they could not find an account with that members name.  Then when I registered sgain it told me that they already had a member by that name…..funny….. Irene   Till Heaven and earth pass not one yood nor one flourish will pass from the Torah till ALL is fulfilled. Has heaven and earth passed? I guess i missed it! Fulfilled does not mean to put an end to else there would be no need for a Savior. Understand? You need the Torah to define sin, else how can you repent of what you know not of? Try keeping the commands and see for yourself why you need a Savior, or you can just sit back and watch like it like a TV and you are just an observer. I prefer to put on my sandals, pick up my execution stake and follow my Master Yahushua the True Messiah. Try to follow in His footsteps, like you are supposed to do if you are a genuine believer. Or you can continue pretending like everyone else! The word fulfill means to give full meaning, so get over it! Laurel, Laurel the Torah is the first five Books of the Old Testament, and Old covenant, which we are not under.  We are under the New Covenant in Luke 22:20…”This cup is the new covenant in My blood which is shed for you.” Then Jesus gave us the great Commandment in Math. 22:37 Jesus said to him:” You shall Love Your God with all of your heart and all of your Soul, and with all of your mind.” verse 38 This is the first and great commandment. verse 39 “And the second is like it”You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” verse 40 On these two commandments hang all of the Law and the Prophets.” As I said before, it is Jesus Words and I am not going to deny them.   Then Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount magnified the Law and made it Spiritual, now we not keep the great Commandment in the lettter of the Law but also in the Spirit in our hearts.  Thinking and lusting after a woman now is already committing Adultery.  If you hate your Brother, you have commited murder in  your heart, That is why Jesus said that the road is narrow and few will find it….I will stand on this until the cow's come Home no matter what you want to belief, I do what I think is right.  If you want to keep the Torah be my guest, but it is not right of you to constantly telling me that I should…… Peace and Love Irene

Dear Arnold, and by the way i love your new name, very cute to be named after your grandfather;

I'll try to explain in simple word pictures what it means to be “under the law.” Hopefully you will grow a little today because of it.

Have you ever been arrested for “breaking the law?”
Did you know that breaking YHWH's law is punishable by death, actually breaking YHWH's Torah means that you choose not to do His will, it means you are anti-messiah, anti-YHWH, and anti-salvation. It means that you do not care to follow YHWH and live in His kingdom.

By the time we learn, because we have been so wrapped up in “religion” and what “they” teach, we have sinned repeatedly. We are worthy of death. Most of us Christians said we we made Yahushua our Lord, our Master, BUT we were taught falsely that that was all we had to do. So we went on our normal lives waiting for YAH's SPirit to change us, when in fact we only continued to live in sin. And for the sake of shalom, i will say that MANY sin in ignorance and not in rebellion, thankfully.

But there will come a point in every mislead Christian believer's life where we just know something is missing. I have heard even pastor's say they are still searching, and wanting to “know the LORD.”

It is quite common among Christians to say, “I'd like a better relationship with the LORD, or i long to “know the LORD” more intimately.

These people “know” there is something missing, but do not know where to start to have that emptiness filled. This filling up of that empty place can only be done by the Set-apart Spirit, but how and when, and why not me?

The problem is not that these Christians are not filled, the problem is they do not know how to get shalom because by the teachings of their religions they do not get to hear the TRUTH. Religions do not teach the truth. Religions teach how to be religious, which is vanity. Religion separates us from YHWH Elohim. Every denomination of which there of over 30,000 just so called Christian religions, and every one is different. How shall a person who is truely searching, find shalom when all their brothers and sisters in Messiah have all gone their own separate directions? It is an impossible task, as long as you stay in religion. The only shalom you will find is “temporary” because it means “compromising your belief to match someone elses, even though you know in your heart it is not real.

While each religion has it's own beliefs, they can not all be right. I hope you agree at least with this, or you will have more troubles than i can help to explain.

Knowing that all are not right, we need to “establish what is right.” I hope you can agree with this as well, or you will have bigger problems than i can help to explain.

So with Scripture, let me show you where you will find THE TRUTH and the ONLY TRUTH, that you can build your whole belief on, and “know” it is right in your heart.

Neh 9:13 “And You came down on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from the heavens, and gave them straight right-rulings and Torah of truth, good laws and commands.

Psa 119:142 Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth.

Dan 9:13 “As it is written in the Torah of Mosheh, all this evil has come upon us, and we have not entreated the face of יהוה our Elohim, to turn back from our crookednesses, and to study Your truth.

Joh 1:17 for the Torah was given through Mosheh – the favour and the truth came through יהושע Messiah. (they were both given to us for the same purpose.)

Rom 2:24 For “The Name of Elohim is blasphemed among the gentiles because of you,” as it has been written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision indeed profits if you practise the Torah, but if you are a transgressor of the Torah,
your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 So, if an uncircumcised one watches over the righteousnesses of the Torah, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned as circumcision?
(In this we see that one must practice what they preach. Walking in YAH's will is our utmost goal, which is to “follow the Messiah in truth.)

Circumcision of the heart means that we obey the Torah of Mosheh.

When we are obedient to the law, we will nevere be arrested. We are guiltless, we are free from the consequences of sin, walking in uprightness of heart, doing the will of YHWH, following Yahushua, keeping Torah, and not walking in another direstion away from YHWH.

Enmity is when we refuse to do Torah, love is when we vow to follow Torah no matter what, because we love the Messiah.

For I, יהוה your Elohim am a jealous Ěl, visiting the crookedness of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exo 20:6 but showing kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and guard My commands.

Joh 14:15 “If you love Me, you shall guard My commands.

Joh 14:21 “He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and manifest Myself to him.” (This is THE ONLY WAY to have a closer relationship with YHWH, and be filled with shalom/completeness.)

It does not mean that we must be perfect already, that is was Yahushua came for! We can walk like little children who are learning, we will make mistakes from time to time out of our own ignorance of the Torah, but we have a Good Teacher, and a Good Leader to follow, as we grwo in the Spirit.

I hope you see now what it means to be “under” the law. It means we are condemned to death for not walking in Torah. and to be free from the law means that we do everything possible, even if it means going aginst the world, to guard the commands, and follow the Messiah to our ABBA!

As long as we are walking in Torah and learning, and repenting along the way, as long as we cling to the Messiah's tzitzit (hem of His garment) we will never be “under the law” but we are free!

As for my own experience, first being a Christian of several different religions, keeping sun-day and the pagan holidays ea_ter and x-mass, until now, being graffed in to Yisra'el through the blood og th Perfect Lamb, Yahushua Messiah, and learning to walk in the Torah, i can say with authority of my Elohim YHWH, it is good to do Torah, and it bring shalom to those who will do it. It bring oneness, and understanding, but mostly it teaches love.

The Torah is a love letter for our ABBA in heaven.

[Laurel]

Arnold,
One more thing i did not address, is yes the Torah is written on my heart to do it. I know that if i look at a man in lust of the flesh it is sin. Yahushua clarified the meaning of the commands, if anything He showed us to be more strict with ourselves, and not to be more lienent. He did not change the Torah, He explained it with crystal clarity, that was not understood at that time by many, nor is is understood by Gentiles who think He did away with it.

Yahushua put the Torah where it belongs, in our hearts, to do it, and to understand why we are doing it, and why He did it, and why YHWH gave it to us.

[Arnold]

Laurel!   Some people are just unbelievable, you know darn well my name is Irene…….I am done with you….good luck to you … you need it…I R E N E

[NickHassan]

Hi KM,
You asked in another thread
“Hi Nick.

So what if your baptised at a younger age (say 14) then become lost and sin (not badly just things like anger worldliness), then return to God, age 30 say, what is your opinion, do you think the person should be rebaptised? “

Water baptism in the name of Jesus is necessary but is not magic. Simon Majus in Acts 8 was baptised but remained in his sin.

It is only useful when folk become aware they are sinners in need of salvation and they repent. Read 1 Peter 3 [in several versions] All must repent.[Acts 17, Lk13]. Jesus said not to stop little children coming to him so when they can understand they can be.

[karmarie]

Hi Nick, I was thinking about this and I think that if someone was Baptised then went away they would be like the prodigal son, lost, but then welcomed back and so long as they stay on track they would be ok. So no re-baptism would be needed because they are already a child of God, only they were lost for a while (I hope that makes sense).

Thankyou.

[NickHassan]

Hi KM,
There is one baptism-in the name of Yeshua.
Yeshua is our advocate if we fall away.[1jn1]

Never forget 2 tim2.11-13

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Nothing has changed since Peter preached at pentecost.
Repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins.

Do not die in your sins.

[chosenone]

1Cor.12:13… For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and all are made to imbibe one spirit.

Ro.6:3… Or are you ignorant that whoever are baptized into Christ Jesus, are baptized into His death?

1Cor.1:17-18… For Christ does not commission me to be baptizing, but to be bringing the evangel, not in wisdom of word, lest the cross of Christ may be made void.
18 For the word of the cross is stupidity, indeed, to those who are perishing, yet to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

[chosenone]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2010,09:03)

Hi, Nothing has changed since Peter preached at pentecost. Repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins. Do not die in your sins.

NH.

Did not Jesus take care of that for us?

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

TO ALL:

On another thread Mikeboll is shooting off his mouth denying the veracity of the use of the tri-une name in Matthew 28:19. Jesus allegedly commanded His disciples to baptize (verb) in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. But the apostles baptized (verb) in the name of Jesus alone. So Mike claims that the use of the tri-une name in Matthew 28:19 must not be authentic.

Well, Mike makes the same mistake that the church has made throughout history. Mike as the church assumes that Matthew 28:19 is about water baptism. But if Jesus did not command His disciples to baptize with water, then Mike cannot cast doubt on the authenticity of the tri-une name in Matthew 28:19.

MY ASSERTION:

Jesus did NOT command His disciples to baptize (verb) with water. Jesus commanded them to make disciples baptizing (participle). Note what Jesus actually said:

Quote

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Note that Jesus did NOT say, “make disciples AND baptize (verb) them.” Jesus did not use a verb! He said, “make disciples …baptizing them.” The word “baptizing” is a predicative participle. A participle is a verbal adjective. An adjective modifies a noun. The predicative participle “baptizing” modifies the noun “disciples. In other words, the very act of making disciples is “baptizing” them.

Suppose a minister of the gospel made his rounds in the hospital and came across a dying man in the bed and he gave that man the message of salvation and that man believed. The man then immediately died. The minister baptized that man in the sense that he made him a convert.

So why did the disciples baptize with water in the book of Acts if Jesus had not commanded them? They baptized with water because the law of Moses commanded it. Jesus NEVER commanded His disciples to baptize with water.

So Mike loses because the word “baptizing” is a participle and a participle is an adjective and and adjective MODIFIES a noun. The word “baptizing” modifies the noun “disciples.” When we teach the Trinity doctrine we are making disciples of men baptizing them into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Put what Jesus actually said together with the fact that Mike has no manuscript inwhich the tri-une name is absent and we see that Mike is just feeding you his usual garbage.

Kangaroo Jack Jr.

[terraricca]

KJ

could tell me what that scripture by itself means ?? do not connect it with any other scripture.

Pierre

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,23:54)

KJ could tell me what that scripture by itself means ?? do not connect it with any other scripture. Pierre

Pierre,

I have already explained the meaning. I said,

Quote

So Mike loses because the word “baptizing” is a participle and a participle is an adjective and and adjective MODIFIES a noun. The word “baptizing” modifies the noun “disciples.” When we teach the Trinity doctrine we are making disciples of men baptizing them into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did not command the disciples to baptize with water. Moses had already commanded it. Note in Acts 8 the Ethiopan Eunuch was reading from the prophet Isaiah and had asked Philip who the prophecy was about. Philip told the Eunuch that the prophecy was about Jesus. Then the Eunuch asked Philip to baptize him.

Where did the Eunuch get the idea that he was supposed to be baptized? He was reading the portion of of Isaiah's prophecy which talked about the Suffering Servant in chapters 52-53. The last verse of chapter 52 says that He shall sprinkle (baptize) many peoples.

So baptism by water had already been a practice in the old testament as it was instituted by Moses. Jesus did not institute water baptism and He NEVER commanded it.

KJ

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 07 2011,07:58)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,23:54) KJ could tell me what that scripture by itself means ?? do not connect it with any other scripture. Pierre Pierre, I have already explained the meaning. I said, Quote So Mike loses because the word “baptizing” is a participle and a participle is an adjective and and adjective MODIFIES a noun. The word “baptizing” modifies the noun “disciples.” When we teach the Trinity doctrine we are making disciples of men baptizing them into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not command the disciples to baptize with water. Moses had already commanded it. Note in Acts 8 the Ethiopan Eunuch was reading from the prophet Isaiah and had asked Philip who the prophecy was about. Philip told the Eunuch that the prophecy was about Jesus. Then the Eunuch asked Philip to baptize him. Where did the Eunuch get the idea that he was supposed to be baptized? He was reading the portion of of Isaiah's prophecy which talked about the Suffering Servant in chapters 52-53. The last verse of chapter 52 says that He shall sprinkle (baptize) many peoples. So baptism by water had already been a practice in the old testament as it was instituted by Moses. Jesus did not institute water baptism and He NEVER commanded it. KJ

KJ

yes you right ,the way i understand it ,is that the water baptizing was only for Jews,because John baptism was about repentance of the sins by breaking the law ,
a law that the gentiles did not have.

the baptism of the holy spirit is to my understanding only for the chosen one (144k)
God does not give of his holy spirit to anybody,need a plan ,reason.

some are call upon,some come because they have heard about the gospel those are of the other pen.but all end up in one godly spirit.

now why baptize in the name of the father ??
Jesus says to be baptized in his name ,because he is the way to the father,right

and how can someone be baptize in the holy spirit ??this is not a acquired thing,but a given thing,no??

so this verse Math 28;19 is at least ambiguous.
there is no other ,in this way.

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 07 2011,04:11)

TO ALL: On another thread Mikeboll is shooting off his mouth denying the veracity of the use of the tri-une name in Matthew 28:19. Jesus allegedly commanded His disciples to baptize (verb) in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. But the apostles baptized (verb) in the name of Jesus alone. So Mike claims that the use of the tri-une name in Matthew 28:19 must not be authentic. Well, Mike makes the same mistake that the church has made throughout history. Mike as the church assumes that Matthew 28:19 is about water baptism. But if Jesus did not command His disciples to baptize with water, then Mike cannot cast doubt on the authenticity of the tri-une name in Matthew 28:19. MY ASSERTION: Jesus did NOT command His disciples to baptize (verb) with water. Jesus commanded them to make disciples baptizing (participle). Note what Jesus actually said: Quote 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Note that Jesus did NOT say, “make disciples AND baptize (verb) them.” Jesus did not use a verb! He said, “make disciples …baptizing them.” The word “baptizing” is a predicative participle. A participle is a verbal adjective. An adjective modifies a noun. The predicative participle “baptizing” modifies the noun “disciples. In other words, the very act of making disciples is “baptizing” them. Suppose a minister of the gospel made his rounds in the hospital and came across a dying man in the bed and he gave that man the message of salvation and that man believed. The man then immediately died. The minister baptized that man in the sense that he made him a convert. So why did the disciples baptize with water in the book of Acts if Jesus had not commanded them? They baptized with water because the law of Moses commanded it. Jesus NEVER commanded His disciples to baptize with water. So Mike loses because the word “baptizing” is a participle and a participle is an adjective and and adjective MODIFIES a noun. The word “baptizing” modifies the noun “disciples.” When we teach the Trinity doctrine we are making disciples of men baptizing them into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Put what Jesus actually said together with the fact that Mike has no manuscript inwhich the tri-une name is absent and we see that Mike is just feeding you his usual garbage. Kangaroo Jack Jr.

KJ

if the only way to become a Israelite is to be circumcised,?
then being baptized is also true to become a Christian.

but Paul tells us that the circumcision does not mean anything unless you produce the fruit there of(obey the law)

so if the circumcision becomes useless by not obeying ,then the baptism is also useless for those who do not obey Christ teachings,this is why Christ mention that the ones who love him obey him.

so the obedience to God and his will over run any other.

this is were the two commandment are figurative and true.

Pierre

[terraricca]

KJ

also you can not have a disciple just by baptizing them ,this believe is false.(this believe is sectarian in believe )
born again is not being baptized ,it is the profound change inside our hearth and soul with all our strength and will and producing the fruits of the spirit ,to be acceptable to God.and reach out for godliness

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 06 2011,04:11)

MY ASSERTION: Jesus did NOT command His disciples to baptize (verb) with water. Jesus commanded them to make disciples baptizing (participle). Note what Jesus actually said:

Words games that are unworthy of a response from me.  Even the best TRINITARIAN scholars and Popes have posed the question of why Jesus gave orders that were followed by no Apostle.

And why did you need another thread for this? Oh, that's right. Multiple threads is another one of your diversion tactics!

Bye bye Jack.

mike

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2011,03:23)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 06 2011,04:11) MY ASSERTION: Jesus did NOT command His disciples to baptize (verb) with water. Jesus commanded them to make disciples baptizing (participle). Note what Jesus actually said: Words games that are unworthy of a response from me.  Even the best TRINITARIAN scholars and Popes have posed the question of why Jesus gave orders that were followed by no Apostle. And why did you need another thread for this?  Oh, that's right.  Multiple threads is another one of your diversion tactics!   Bye bye Jack. mike

Mike,

You cannot respond because you are afraid to face the truth. It is YOU who has been employing the diversion tactics by citing Catholic scholars when we have asked you a million times to PRODUCE THE MANUSCRIPT inwhich the tri-une name is absent from Matthew 28:19. Every time I ask you to produce the manuscript you just reply with quotes from Catholics. I AM NOT A CATHOLIC SIR! I HAVE NON-CATHOLIC SCHOLARS WHO THINK THAT BAPTISM DOES NOT NECESSARILY INVOLVE WATER.

SO PRODUCE THE MANUSCRIPT MIKE OR PROVE THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING ABOUT WATER BAPTISM!

Prove that Jesus was speaking about water baptism Mike! Baptism in the classical sense has nothing at all to do with water. Note the definition of classical baptism given by Presbyterian SCHOLAR James W. Dale:

Quote

Whatever is capable of thoroughly changing the character, state or condition of any object, is capable of baptizing that object; and by such change of character, state, or condition does, in fact baptize it. Classic Baptism, James W. Dale, p. 353-354

Anytime a man underwent a change in his character, state or condition he was BAPTIZED by means of that which produced that change.

1. The disciples were “baptized” BY MEANS OF THE WORD that Jesus spoke to them.

Quote

Now you are already clean (baptized) through the word which I have spoken to you. John 15:3

The disciples were NOT baptized with water Mike! They are “ALREADY CLEAN” through the word that Jesus spoke to them. The word that Jesus spoke to them wrought the change in their character, state or condition.

2.Paul said that the Israelites were “baptized” BY MEANS OF THE CLOUD that went before them and by means of their passage through the Red Sea ON DRY LAND ( 1 Corinthians 10:1-2; Ex. 13:21; 14:21).

In none of these example was water applied Mike. The disciples were baptized by means of the word which Jesus spoke and the Israelites were baptized by means of the cloud that went before them and by means of their passage through the Red sea ON DRY LAND.

3. Isaiah was baptized by BY FEAR.

Quote

4Wandered hath my heart, trembling hath terrified me, The twilight of my desire He hath made a fear to me, Young's Literal Translation

The word “terrified” is “baptizo” in the Septuagint: η καρδια μου πλαναται και η ανομια με βαπτιζει η ψυχη μου εφεστηκεν εις φοβον

Did you get that Mike? Isaiah was “baptized” BY FEAR

4. Ishmael “baptized” Gedaliah into sleep BY DRUNKENNESS. http://books.google.com/books?i….f=false

5. One may have been “baptized by” BY A DRUG INDUCED HIGH.

Quote

Drug-Induced High 3. Then, mersing powerfully (baptizing potently -> making high), he set me free. [(Conant's translation) “Then WHELMING (BAPTIZING) potently, he set me free. ex. 150, p 72. Aristophon (Athenaeus, Philosopher's Banquet, IX. 44.)] P 319-20; (In this example a slave-girl was given a drug, which she imbibed and was powerfully drugged, she was baptized potently.) Dr. Conant, in making baptizo express an “effect” becomes exposed to the charge of treason to the (Baptist) cause, as brought by Dr. Carson. “Potently” is not a proper qualifying term for dipping; nor for whelming, or mersing, or baptizing in primary use. The agency may be potent, but not the condition. (But) it is entirely proper as characterizing the secondary use, expressive of controlling influence. A specific translation here is more than justified (of being powerfully drugged).

Note that the word “baptize” refers to the EFFECT of the drug on the girl. http://www.benkeshet.com/webhelp….upefied by Drugs

6. One may have been “baptized” BY INTOXICATION FROM WINE.

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Intoxicated 4. Having mersed (baptized -> intoxicated) Alexander by much wine. [(Conant's translation) “And Thebe, learning the purpose [of Alexander], gave daggers to the brothers and urged them to be ready for the slaughter; and having WHELMED (BAPTIZED) Alexander with much wine and put him to sleep, she sends out the guards of the bed-chamber, under the pretense of taking a bath, and called the brothers to the deed. ex. 149, p 71. Conon, Narration L.] P 320; “Having immersed Alexander in wine – that is, having made him drunk with wine” (Carson). This translation (of Carson) shows the intenseness of (Baptist) theory while exposing its error. 1. “Immersed.”…is professedly used as synonymous with dip. This profession is never carried out in practice, nor can it ever be. Here, as in unnumbered other pl aces dip is slipped out and immerse is slipped in because the former would not answer the purpose. To “dip anyone in wine” for the purpose of representing a state of drunkenness is figure which no thoughtful person ever employed. (1.) Because of inconsistency. Dipping causes but a trivial effect while drunkenness is one of power. (2.) Because of want of adaptation. Nothing is made drunk by being put into wine. But “immerse” is as unsuitable for other reasons as dip. No one insists more strongly than Carson that the whole person, in baptism, must go within the element, consequently, Alexander must go, head and ears, within the wine; and when there he must stay there long enough to imbibe the intoxicating qualities of the element. How long this will take I cannot say, but quite probably before he gets drunk he will have got drowned. Such a case shows the Baptist error of confounding a dipping with a baptism. The qualities of wine cannot be extracted by a dipping, though they may by a baptism. It shows also the essential error of a figure which represents drunkenness by immersing a living being in wine, a condition which has no tendency to make drunk, but which must drown. 2. “Much wine.” Much is, significantly, omitted in (Carson's) translation. It has no fitness in announcing a physical mersion. What matters it whether Alexander were physically mersed in “much wine” or not?…Dr. Carson felt this, and throws it out. But this word is eminently significant if the writer means to express a state if intoxication. “Much wine” gives emphasis to the influence exerted. 3. “In wine.” The introduction of “in” localizing the tyrant of Pherae (Alexander) within the wine is an error resulting from the previous error in the form of the act attributed to the verb. If dip (or its claimed equivalent, immerse) be associated with a fluid, that fluid necessarily becomes the element and if no appropriate preposition is furnished one must be supplied. This Dr. Carson has found necessary to do. Error begets error. This construction with its translation is important to notice… We thus see what vital issues depend on the right determination of the value of baptizo. Has it “but one meaning through all Greek literature – mode and nothing but mode – to dip? (so Dr. Carson). Or is it devoid of all modal action – demanding a condition of intusposition? And does it, with parallelism to bapto, lay aside this primary demand for intusposition, and substitute for it a demand, only, for controlling influence, which attends some phases of intusposition, as dyeing in some cases of dipping?…Carson dips, plunges, immerses Alexander in wine, instead of allowing him to be “influenced (made drunk) by wine.”…(Now we come to the) Interpretation (by Carson). – After he…paid tribute to (his Baptist) theory and system by introducing modal act and figure into his translation Carson adds – “that is having made him drunk with wine.” With this admission of the meaning, and with the admission of Conant (in his translation, “whelmed with wine”), that there was no dipping, even in figure, we may be satisfied that we do not greatly err in the position that influence is directly expressed, and as that influence can take but one form the translation is faithful which says, “having made Alexander drunk by much wine.”…

http://www.benkeshet.com/webhelp….upefied by Drugs

I HAVE GIVEN SEVERAL BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL EXAMPLES THAT BAPTISM OCCURRED WITHOUT WATER. NOW PROVE THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING ABOUT WATER BAPTISM IN MATTHEW 28:19 MIKE!

YOUR ARGUMENT AGAINST THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE TRI-UNE NAME IN MATTHEW 28:19 IS LAME AND UNSCHOLARLY MIKE. YOUR ARGUMENT IS TOTALLY STUPID. NOT ALL AGREE WITH THE CATHOLICS THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING ABOUT WATER BAPTISM.

YOU LOSE MIKE! THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE TRI-UNE NAME IN THE HOLY WORD OF GOD STANDS!

Jack

[KangarooJack]

Pierre said:

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yes you right ,the way i understand it ,is that the water baptizing was only for Jews,because John baptism was about repentance of the sins by breaking the law , a law that the gentiles did not have.

Pierre,

It is good that you see that Matthew 28:19 is NOT about water baptism. See my post immediately above inwhich I give biblical and historical examples of the use of the word “baptize.” You can see from those examples that baptism had to do with a change of character or of state or condition by the thing which produced the change.

For instance, Isaiah was “baptized” by fear meaning that fear overwhelmed him. When a person's behavior was altered by drugs of wine it was called a “baptism.”

Jesus did not command water baptism in Matthew 28:19. This goes contrary to everything else Jesus taught. He commanded His disciples to “make disciples baptizing them.” The participle “baptizing” is a verbal adjective which modifies the statement “make disciples” and therefore describes what occurs in the making of disciples. When we are making disciples we are “baptizing” them into the Christian religion.

blessings,

KJ

[Tim Kraft]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 06 2011,21:11)

TO ALL: On another thread Mikeboll is shooting off his mouth denying the veracity of the use of the tri-une name in Matthew 28:19. Jesus allegedly commanded His disciples to baptize (verb) in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. But the apostles baptized (verb) in the name of Jesus alone. So Mike claims that the use of the tri-une name in Matthew 28:19 must not be authentic. Well, Mike makes the same mistake that the church has made throughout history. Mike as the church assumes that Matthew 28:19 is about water baptism. But if Jesus did not command His disciples to baptize with water, then Mike cannot cast doubt on the authenticity of the tri-une name in Matthew 28:19. MY ASSERTION: Jesus did NOT command His disciples to baptize (verb) with water. Jesus commanded them to make disciples baptizing (participle). Note what Jesus actually said: Quote 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Note that Jesus did NOT say, “make disciples AND baptize (verb) them.” Jesus did not use a verb! He said, “make disciples …baptizing them.” The word “baptizing” is a predicative participle. A participle is a verbal adjective. An adjective modifies a noun. The predicative participle “baptizing” modifies the noun “disciples. In other words, the very act of making disciples is “baptizing” them. Suppose a minister of the gospel made his rounds in the hospital and came across a dying man in the bed and he gave that man the message of salvation and that man believed. The man then immediately died. The minister baptized that man in the sense that he made him a convert. So why did the disciples baptize with water in the book of Acts if Jesus had not commanded them? They baptized with water because the law of Moses commanded it. Jesus NEVER commanded His disciples to baptize with water. So Mike loses because the word “baptizing” is a participle and a participle is an adjective and and adjective MODIFIES a noun. The word “baptizing” modifies the noun “disciples.” When we teach the Trinity doctrine we are making disciples of men baptizing them into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Put what Jesus actually said together with the fact that Mike has no manuscript inwhich the tri-une name is absent and we see that Mike is just feeding you his usual garbage. Kangaroo Jack Jr.

Kangaroo Jack Jr.: What a great, wonderful, powerful, accurate post.

I knew this truth in my heart but was until now unable to properly present it with clear explanation.

To receive one accurate confirmation of revelation truth to me is worth picking through much man made doctrinal garbage.

Thanks again for your truth, it confirmed mine! IMO, TK

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