Is baptism needed for salvation?

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 09 2009,16:42)

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In other words, to walk in the flesh is to serve the law according to the letter. But to walk in the Spirit is to serve the law according to the spirit.

SCRIPTURE DEFINES WHAT THE WALK IS AND THE FRUITS OF WALKING IN THE FLESH VS. WALKING IN THE SPIRIT.

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Seeking

March 16, 2009 at 7:01 pm#124963

GeneBalthrop

Participant

seeking…………….Gal 5:18………..> is the key verse ……….> but if your are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (should read under LAW, with the definite article (the ) there. So paraphrased, it means a person lead by the Spirit to keep the LORDS Commandment is not Keeping them by the way Law works, (through forced compliance working through the medium of fear), But he is Keeping GOD”S commandments by the LOVE of GOD IN HIM> The issue of should we Keep the commandments is Not what Paul was talking about is was the way we keep them is what he was addressing , not if we should or not. IMO

love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………gene

March 16, 2009 at 8:51 pm#124965

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Mar. 17 2009,07:01)

love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………gene

Gene,

Amen bro!! I am happy that you and I agree on this one. We serve the law according to the spirit now. But's it's like beating your head against a brick wall to get people to understand this.

thinker

March 16, 2009 at 9:06 pm#124967

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Mar. 16 2009,12:01)

love and peace to you and yours…………………………………………gene

I see Paul clearly defining the fruits of a flesh walk and the fruits of a Spirit led walk. He is careful to list attributes consistent with both walks.

To walk in the flesh is not, as Thinker attributed it, to serve the law according to the letter.

To walk in the flesh, according to Paul, is to manifest these
fruits –

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

To walk Spirit led is to manifest these fruits, Paul said –

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

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The issue of should we Keep the commandments is Not what Paul was talking about is was the way we keep them is what he was addressing , not if we should or not. IMO

I am not that certain Paul is discussing “the way we keep the law” at all. He said simply, live a Spirit led life, against such things there is no law.

I am confident that if we valued being Christlike rather than
achieving one upsmanship in debates, these forums would take on a completely different tone.

Seeking

March 16, 2009 at 11:46 pm#124972

Participant

Seeking said:

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To walk in the flesh is not, as Thinker attributed it, to serve the law according to the letter.

But Paul said,

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For when we [Jews] were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:5-6)

Walking in the flesh for a Jew like Paul meant to walk according to the letter of the law. I exhort Seeking to cast off the baggage he brings in to his interpretation of the Scriptures.

thinker

March 17, 2009 at 12:25 am#124974

Participant

thethinker,Mar. wrote:

[/quote]

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Walking in the flesh for a Jew like Paul meant to walk according to the letter of the law.

Mere conjecture on your part with a total ignoring of the text
while clinging to your opinion.

He compares a flesh walk and a Spirit walk
right in the text. Deny it, but it will not go away.

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I exhort Seeking to cast off the baggage he brings in to his interpretation of the Scriptures.

thinker

Your baggage, what was it you outlined for us, correcting of
professors – Pastors – Elders – other Trinitarians, that need,
does nothing to help your interpretation of the scriptures.

I am sure they were no more influenced nor persuaded to change their minds because of your rhetoric than we are.

Seeking

March 17, 2009 at 2:29 am#124978

Participant

thethinker,Mar. wrote:

[/quote]

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Walking in the flesh for a Jew like Paul meant to walk according to the letter of the law.

How does this work out adding Thinkers definition of, “walking in the flesh” for a Jew like Paul.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, (according to the letter of the law.) we are not waging war according to the flesh. 2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.
2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

Just perhaps, “walk in the flesh” does not consistently mean
“according to the letter of the law.” Why would Paul walk
according to the letter of the law if he had other weapons at his disposal that he intended to use? Perhaps the definition
walk in the flesh = walk according to the letter of the law is
not applicable as a blanket statement.

Seeking

March 17, 2009 at 3:01 am#124980

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Seeking …………remember it says the love of God fulfills (the) Law or(ten commandments), “For Love fullfilleth the law” Now this love of God is also said to be shed around in our Hearts. While we are not under obligation to keep the commandments by works of Law, but we through the working of the Spirit of GOD do fulfill the required intent of the Law or commandments. If we understand that the LORD was only expressing His love through the ten commandments it should be something we desire to be like. Seeking brother, it Just how we keeping the Fathers comandments , not an issue if we should, we keep the comandments through a new and living way, from the love in our hearts, placed there by the Father, we are (created unto good works) Brother

love and peace to you and yours………………………………………….gene

March 17, 2009 at 3:33 am#124982

Participant

G,
So who are those whom God has placed his commands in?
All the heathen?
Nonsense.

March 17, 2009 at 4:02 am#124984

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Nick………..good to see your back, brother, was getting worried about you…………..Sorry i am not following your questions could you clarify please. We are not talking about Heathens brother , but the (way) we keep Gods commandments. IS It it through the works of (LAW) or the SPIRIT of GOD, Shedding His love around in our Hearts.

love and peace to you and yours brother………………………………..gene

March 17, 2009 at 4:46 am#124987

Participant

G,
Only those alive in the vine will enjoy fellowship with God.

March 17, 2009 at 2:24 pm#125015

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Mar. 16 2009,20:01)

Seeking brother, it Just how we keeping the Fathers comandments , not an issue if we should, we keep the comandments through a new and living way, from the love in our hearts, placed there by the Father, we are (created unto good works) Brother

Exactly brother, have I been saying something else. So there is no confusion in my mind about the Galatian passages as they list a flesh walk producing fruits contrary to a Spirit filled walk and Paul describes plainly what fruits a Spirit led walk will produce in contrast.

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we keep the comandments through a new and living way,

Absolutely! But we do keep them!! In fact, only the Spirit
filled followers will be able – through the power of the Spirit –
to keep the intent of the law. Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Jesus taught the intent of the law and what a Spiritual view and fulfillment of it would be – Mat 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Taking folks down rabbit trails of whether or not those thoughts of Jesus were old covenant or new, written to Jews
and prostelytes and not us etc. only keeps us from fulfilling
the righteous requirements of the law as Paul taught we could
and should.

God's goal should be our goal and that goal should be to conform to the likeness of Christ:

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

In these forums I have seen foul language posted, snide remarks made, and character assination abound. I have seen
a devisive spirit pitting of opinions against each other, pride and the 'I am right you are wrong” attitude abound.

I hasten to add I have taken the bait and done like things
and I say here and now, I REPENT! Much of what I have seen here is of Satan and has nothing to do with producing Christlikeness in others. That is ungodly!!

Tit 3:10-11 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Someone will say, “but the truth must be defended.” Who's
version of the truth? There is a proper way to defend and when it is deviated from, it is sin.

Eph 4:232 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

2Ti 2:23-25 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome
but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

I'll jump down off my soap box and conclude by saying I will no longer run down the rabbit trails of controversy, I plan to be busy being transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Blessings in your walk with our Savior,

Seeking

March 17, 2009 at 5:10 pm#125022

Participant

Gene said:

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Seeking brother, it Just how we keeping the Fathers comandments , not an issue if we should,

Gene,
Seeking knows this. He knows that we are not saying that Chtistians should not serve the law. But in his mind the discarding of the letter amounts to not serving the law.

Gene said:

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we keep the comandments through a new and living way, from the love in our hearts, placed there by the Father, we are (created unto good works)

Seeking replied:

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Exactly brother, have I been saying something else.

Then why do you insist on the external ordinance of baptism as applying to our day?

thinker

March 17, 2009 at 5:52 pm#125027

Participant

Hi tt,
The command to be reborn of water and the Spirit is a command of Jesus.
But some just call him LORD LORD.

March 17, 2009 at 6:25 pm#125036

Participant

Seeking said:

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Your baggage, what was it you outlined for us, correcting of
professors – Pastors – Elders – other Trinitarians, that need,
does nothing to help your interpretation of the scriptures.

I am sure they were no more influenced nor persuaded to change their minds because of your rhetoric than we are.

I meant to say that I exhort you to cast off your old covenant baggage.

And yes, they were not influenced. The professors said that if you don't believe in their rapture doctrine you're a “liberal.” I challenged them and they were not influenced. The elders required new members of the church to give no less than ten percent of their incomes to the church. I challenge them and they were not influenced. And the pastor this past Sunday said from the pulpit that he and the board of elders have the authority to excommunicate a sinning member apart from congregational approval. Jesus said that this power belongs to the church (Matt. 18). I challenged the pastor after the service and he was not influenced.

I engage you so those who just follow reading these threads can be influenced.

thinker

March 17, 2009 at 6:31 pm#125039

Participant

Hi tt,
So you have nobody to follow.

Jesus was baptised in water.
His disciples baptised in water.

but you have a new way?

March 17, 2009 at 7:13 pm#125046

Participant

thethinker,Mar. wrote:

[/quote]

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Then why do you insist on the external ordinance of baptism as applying to our day?

I have said in the past to you, on several occassions, I do not “insist” that anyone be baptised – nor did Jesus.

Jesus did say this:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Luk 6:46 “Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments

I love Him and choose to keep His commandments as His indwelling Spirit enables me. I do not need to spend my time sorting out whether or not I need to keep the law. I seek to keep the righteous requirements of the law because it pleases my Lord and He encourages me that I can –

Rom 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

It is not only from the “letter” that we learn what is pleasing and displeasing to God.

2Ti 2:23-25 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome
but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth

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But in his mind the discarding of the letter amounts to not serving the law.

You “think” much more highly of yourself than you ought!
Believe me, you do not know my mind or anyone elses.

1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Jn 2:4-5 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected.

It is Jesus that I serve, He is my master and He will make all to stand who serve Him. This is His promise too you and to me.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Blessings in your walk with the Lord,

Seeking

March 17, 2009 at 7:13 pm#125047

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2009,06:31)

Hi tt,
So you have nobody to follow.

Jesus was baptised in water.
His disciples baptised in water.

but you have a new way?

Jesus and the apostles spoke in anticipation of the “new and living way.” Baptism was necessary only during the interim period between the two covenants.

thinker

March 17, 2009 at 7:20 pm#125048

Participant

Seeking said:

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I have said in the past to you, on several occassions, I do not “insist” that anyone be baptised – nor did Jesus.

Seeking,
Now I am confused. Are you saying that baptism is not required? Again you said

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I do not “insist” that anyone be baptized-nor did Jesus

You've lost me now. I don't understand!

thinker

March 17, 2009 at 7:24 pm#125049