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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,10:25) Hi W,
How can God IN JESUS be addressed?
NHBecause Jesus is God in the flesh NH.
He Is God.
Scriptures are clear.
But you dont believe them.
He is in the Father and the Father is in him.
Explain how this can be and you will have your answer.
Hi W,
Is he both the Son of God and the God of whom he is a son?
If he is not you have two deities, two gods and polytheism rears it's ugly head again.
He is in the will of God and filled with God's Spirit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,15:56) Hi W,
Is he both the Son of God and the God of whom he is a son?
If he is not you have two deities, two gods and polytheism rears it's ugly head again.
He is in the will of God and filled with God's Spirit.
NHHe is the Son of the Father.
What says that God has to be compared to us?
Is Not God a diferent being than humans?
Isnt his nature infinitely more complex than ours?
Do you think that you or I can totally understand the full nature of an infinite God?
Does his relationship with the Son have to be paterned after mans?
You always try to bring him down to your image.
Why dont you open your eyes to see he wants you to see his image and so be changed.
Hi W,
No just following the teaching of scripture.
Gen 1
” 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,17:06) Hi W,
No just following the teaching of scripture.
Gen 1
” 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
NHYes and the first Adam lost his image when he fell.
We are new creations to be made after the Image of the Second Adam which is the Lord from heaven.
Jesus had the “Likeness of sinfull flesh”, but he did not have infell flesh.
Hi W,
You say.
“Yes and the first Adam lost his image when he fell.”but after the fall scripture says this about man.
Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,08:57) Hi W,
You say.
“Yes and the first Adam lost his image when he fell.”but after the fall scripture says this about man.
Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
NHAre you still following after Adam?
Is Adam to be our image?
Fallen man is only in the image of God because he still has dominion over all the earth and he has power to create and has a will.
But the pattern for the Sons of God is Yeshua, the Lord from heaven.
Be ye perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect!
Hi W,
If you would not follow Adam and his god, the god of this world, then you must repent and be born again. Then we follow Christ into his death that we may share in his resurrection being given a downpayment of that Spirit life now. He loved the word of truth and abided in it. So should those who say they follow him.Hi Bib,
In another thread you said“***Jesus being Michael is not explicitly taught in scripture. What i mean is there is no scripture which says: “Jesus is Michael the archangel.” However, I do believe it is strongly implied. (1Thess. 4:16) I am not dogmatic about it but it is what I believe. If scripture is implicit in this I don't believe we have a choice. “
Men could offer you many implications but would you accept them all?
Inference is not truth by any standard.
That is the sort of thinking that led to trinity in the first place.Hi Nick,
I agree that “Inference is not truth by any standard.” Inference and implicity are not interchangeable words. According to the Webster's online dictionary:
1-Inference is making a logical judgement on the basis of circumstantial and prior conclusions rather than on the basis of direct observation.
2-Implicit is capable of being understood from something else though unexpressed.
Simply stated inference is based on prior conclusions. Implicit involves the understanding of something though not explicitly expressed.
There is a subtle but rather large difference in meaning.
That same dictionary says this: “The difference between implying and inferring is this: an author who writes that all men are mortal and Socrates is a man implies that Socrates is mortal; a reader who is so subtle as to notice that the author implies that and to consciously think “Therefore Socrates is mortal” infers that Socrates is mortal.”
That is why I chose my words carefully when speaking of the Bible implying that Jesus is the Archangel. Hope this helps!
In Christ
Hi BI,
That is why we rely on what IS WRITTEN.Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.Romans 2:24
For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:Romans 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.Romans 4:23
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;Romans 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.Romans 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!Romans 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.Romans 15:3
For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.Romans 15:9
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.Romans 15:15
Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,Romans 15:21
But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.That is from only one of Paul's letters.
You have to face the fact that JWs teachings are only partly based on what is written and to follow them is not to follw Christ who loved and relied on what was written and said in Lk 4.21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
And Jn 10
” 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Hi Nick,
Thanks for your reply. You are absolutely correct that as Christ's followers we must rely on scritpure alone which, as you already quoted Jesus saying, cannot be broken. As one of JW's I teach only Scripture. Not sure what you mean by partly based on the Bible? Saying that something is implied in scripture is still believing and teaching what is written. For example: Wisdom personified from Proverbs 8:22-31 implies this to be Jesus Christ. Yet there is no scripture which explicitly says “Jesus is wisdom personified.” Is this teaching only partly based on the Bible? Please believe me when I say to you that I believe that all of scripture is from God. We are not to go beyond it. Implying that Jesus is Michael does not go beyond scripture. Saying that the Bible explicitly teaches Jesus to be Michael would be going beyond what is written.
Respectfully In Christ
Quote (Bibliophile @ July 18 2007,17:33) Saying that the Bible explicitly teaches Jesus to be Michael would be going beyond what is written.
Yes, but is it even implied? I don't see it.Quote (Bibliophile @ July 18 2007,17:33) Hi Nick, Thanks for your reply. You are absolutely correct that as Christ's followers we must rely on scritpure alone which, as you already quoted Jesus saying, cannot be broken. As one of JW's I teach only Scripture. Not sure what you mean by partly based on the Bible? Saying that something is implied in scripture is still believing and teaching what is written. For example: Wisdom personified from Proverbs 8:22-31 implies this to be Jesus Christ. Yet there is no scripture which explicitly says “Jesus is wisdom personified.” Is this teaching only partly based on the Bible? Please believe me when I say to you that I believe that all of scripture is from God. We are not to go beyond it. Implying that Jesus is Michael does not go beyond scripture. Saying that the Bible explicitly teaches Jesus to be Michael would be going beyond what is written.
Respectfully In Christ
In my experience, BF, JWs will generally shy away from exegetical discussions about this doctrine. I was visited by some members a few months back and they almost seemed embarrassed when I brought it up. They basically concurred with me when I said it was unbiblical, and metaphorically shrugged their shoulders as if to suggest that they had inherited a doctrine that they knew was impossible to defend…Hi BIB,
Thanks.
So is anyone ever brave enough to say openly that such things should not be taught if they cannot be proven or is everyone so intent on maintaining their unity that it cannot happen?Quote n Christ In my experience, BF, JWs will generally shy away from exegetical discussions about this doctrine.
Wouldn't your experience be me leaving 20 pages of responses, replies and answers to repeated arguments against it, in 2 or 3 different threads on this subject?
If others you have talked to do shy away from it, it is because they realize that the conversation cannot be “proved” to you either way. It is only implied, strongly, I would say. So, after the 10th person has brought up this argument against them, there isn't a lot of motivation to engage in this conversation.
I really don't understand this. It must be pasted on the thousands of anti-JW websites–that of asking JW's about Michael.
It's something we don't sit around thinking about. It's not a major teaching, or even something that is hardly ever discussed. Yet, with those who want to question JW's, it is their prime thing.It's my “prime thing” with the JW's that come to visit me because it was a prime concern of Jesus'. That is, “Who do you say that I am?”
Some say John the Baptist, some say Michael the Archangel……but what did the Father reveal to Peter explicitly? That Jesus was not those other people, but he was the Son of the Living God.
I'm not up for a conversation tonight, David. But I can tell you that it is of the utmost importance to me to get who Jesus is right. If it wasn't for the JW's thinking that Jesus was Michael, and a few other points, I'd be tempted to join them. I think there is a lot of good within the JW church. But I cannot follow a different Jesus other than the Jesus that Paul preached. Paul did not preach that Jesus was the preexistent Micheal.
Hi not3,
Why do you need to join a denomination?
Why especially one that is based on such weak foundations?Hi Nick,
I didn't say I was going to join, I just said that the “prime thing” of importance to me was who Jesus was/is. The JW's idea of who Jesus is seems based on implicit teaching, at best. Otherwise, they are great folks!
The two ladies that visit me every now and then are wonderful. They seem to really have the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. I guess I am compassionate towards them because they were the ones who gave me the truth about the Trinity.
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