Inference

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ April 27 2007,11:21)

WJ,

As I said, we disagree.
May GOD open your understanding to behold his magnificent and glorious presence and to know his beloved son as he would be known. I hope you have a Damascus experience. Amen.

Cubes

Thanks.

I am having a Damascas experience everyday as my Lord God opens his word, revealing more of his truth which he gives to the Comforter, the Holy Spirit who shows it unto me.

The Spirit of truth, the one Spirit I have been made to drink into, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ.

Yes we do disagree and I am afraid we serve different Jesus's.

My prayer for you though, is to also experience more of the truth bursting forth into your heart by his glorious Spirit of truth.

Blessings!

April 28, 2007 at 7:24 pm#50869

Participant

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The laws and commandments would seem to have been the creation of Moses, therefore Moses must be included in the ever expanding Trinity.

April 30, 2007 at 6:24 am#50973

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ April 29 2007,07:24)

The laws and commandments would seem to have been the creation of Moses, therefore Moses must be included in the ever expanding Trinity.

Cubes

Since we know *all things were created by Jesus and without him was not anything created that was made*, and Moses was one of the created.

I think its safe to say that Moses is not part of the Godhead.

Consider this…

Have you compared Eph 4:6 with…

Eph 1:
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (at the Fathers side, not above him nor beneath him),
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath *put all things under his feet*, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, *the fulness of him that filleth all in all*.

Notce Yeshau has “All power”. And not only is the Father filling “All in All”, in Eph 4:6, but Yeshau also is.

Jesus said…

Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, *All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth*.

Have you ever really pondered what that means?

“ALL Power”, “ALL Authority”.

If the Father gave him “All” power and authority.

Then how much does the Father have?

Of course the answer is the Father still has “ALL” power and authority because they are One God.

Jesus said…

Jn 16:15
All things that *the Father hath are mine*: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Huh? Imagine that.

Jesus says *the Father is taking from him and showing it unto us*.

Is there any Prophet of old or any Angel or being that has ever even come close to making a claim like that.

Could a mere man born after the flesh claim such?

Jn 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and *hath given all things into his hand*.

Truly this Jesus is one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit!

April 30, 2007 at 6:29 am#50974

Participant

Hi W,
Not the son of God then?

April 30, 2007 at 6:42 am#50978

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2007,18:29)

Hi W,
Not the son of God then?

Monogenes *Unique* Son of God!

He is the God/man!

April 30, 2007 at 10:15 am#50985

Participant

Hi W,
So quite unlike us.
WAs God with him or was he God?

April 30, 2007 at 2:52 pm#50994

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2007,23:24)

Quote (Cubes @ April 29 2007,07:24)

The laws and commandments would seem to have been the creation of Moses, therefore Moses must be included in the ever expanding Trinity.

Cubes

Since we know *all things were created by Jesus and without him was not anything created that was made*, and Moses was one of the created.

I think its safe to say that Moses is not part of the Godhead.

Consider this…

Have you compared Eph 4:6 with…

Notce Yeshau has “All power”. And not only is the Father filling “All in All”, in Eph 4:6, but Yeshau also is.

Greetings WJ,

What I'd hoped my post would do, was cause you to consider whether or not we are UNDERSTANDING as we ought, when it says all things were made BY Jesus.

Because I KNOW that the laws and commandments were not created/made/given by Moses, that he was the messenger of that covenant. God gave them to him to pass on.

Similarly, even in the opening remarks of Revelation 1, God gave Christ that Revelation to pass on.

If “A” must be amended in Moses' case (given the fact that we've been told it was YHWH GOD who gave him the law to begin with on Sinai), then similarly, “B” concerning Christ must be amended given the same framework… unless we could also say that Moses invented the law. If so which? We know he amended the Divorce thing by saying people could write a bill of divorce out of frustration, whereas GOD, Jesus said, made them one in the beginning not to be put asunder.

It therefore cannot mean that grace and truth are the creation of Jesus anymore than the law is the creation of Moses, particularly when we know that all things come from GOD [YHWH].

And when we understand that, then we cannot ignore the first covenant (OT) which tells us that it was YHWH who created all things. John 1 and other OT verses must therefore be seen in the context that YHWH created everything through Jesus as scripture is by no private interpretation (bearing in mind that YHWH none other but the Father).

That's my first point.

The second addresses Eph 4:6 which you cited: while I agree w/ your hilights, I do not agree w/ your conclusion. You seem to overlook the preceding message which says, “Which he WROUGHT in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places….

THAT WAS WHEN he came to be exalted far above all principality, and power, and might, etc. Notice that these things happened DURING the Roman Empire, in terms of time.

If his exaltation brings him to sit at the Father's right hand NOW and not above the Father, then we can safely conclude that prior, his glory was as that of any prince, not as exalting as what he currently has, whereby he PLEASED the Father and for this cause, the Father lifted him above all others and gave him power over all.

In the parable of the prodigal son, BOTH sons were heirs and had glory. One was more pleasing to his father and so on top of his natural birthright as a firstborn (which he might have lost had he not been pleasing, e.g. Reuben), his excellent spirit led to his father not begrudging him anything and all that the father had was his. The younger brother came to his senses and was embraced but does not have the preeminence.

To which of the angels did he say these four things?,

Hbr 1:5 ¶ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

He said these things about his son. So either the word is his son, or is not.

April 30, 2007 at 2:55 pm#50995

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2007,22:15)

Hi W,
So quite unlike us.
WAs God with him or was he God?

Matt 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, *God with us*.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and *the Word was with God, and the Word was God*.

10 He was in the world, and *the world was made by him*, and the world knew him not.

14 And *the Word was made flesh*, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Are these scriptures to hard for you to believe?

What if you would have been there when Jesus said…

Jn 6:
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

48 I am that bread of life.

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, *Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood*, ye have no life in you.

54 *Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life*; and I will raise him up at the last day.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, *This is an hard saying; who can hear it*?

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Would you have been one of those who walked back because it was a hard saying and who could understand it?

John 1:1 and John 20:28 and Acts 20:28 and Heb 1:8 , are these sayings to hard for you NH?

April 30, 2007 at 4:18 pm#50996

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,02:52)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2007,23:24)

Quote (Cubes @ April 29 2007,07:24)

The laws and commandments would seem to have been the creation of Moses, therefore Moses must be included in the ever expanding Trinity.

Cubes

Since we know *all things were created by Jesus and without him was not anything created that was made*, and Moses was one of the created.

I think its safe to say that Moses is not part of the Godhead.

Consider this…

Have you compared Eph 4:6 with…

Notce Yeshau has “All power”. And not only is the Father filling “All in All”, in Eph 4:6, but Yeshau also is.

Greetings WJ,

What I'd hoped my post would do, was cause you to consider whether or not we are UNDERSTANDING as we ought, when it says all things were made BY Jesus.

Because I KNOW that the laws and commandments were not created/made/given by Moses, that he was the messenger of that covenant. God gave them to him to pass on.

Similarly, even in the opening remarks of Revelation 1, God gave Christ that Revelation to pass on.

It therefore cannot mean that grace and truth are the creation of Jesus anymore than the law is the creation of Moses, particularly when we know that all things come from GOD.

That's my first point.

The second addresses Eph 4:6 which you cited: while I agree w/ your hilights, I do not agree w/ your conclusion. You seem to overlook the preceding message which says, “Which he [YHWH] WROUGHT in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places….

THAT WAS WHEN he came to be exalted far above all principality, and power, and might, etc. Notice that these things happened DURING the Roman Empire, in terms of time.

If his exaltation brings him to sit at the Father's right hand NOW and not above the Father, then we can safely conclude that prior, his glory was as that of any prince, not as exalting as what he currently has, whereby he pleased the Father and for this cause, the Father lifted him above all others and gave him power over all.

In the parable of the prodigal son, BOTH boys were heirs and had glory. One was more pleasing to his father and so on top of his natural birthright as a firstborn (which he might have lost had he not been pleasing, e.g. Reuben), his excellent spirit led to his father not begrudging him anything and all that the fathe had was his. The younger brother came to his senses and was embraced but does not have the preeminence.

To which of the angels did he say these four things?,

Hbr 1:5 ¶ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

He said these things about his son. So either the word is his son, or is not.

Cubes

What does “Lord of the Sabath” mean to you?

What it means to me is that Jesus is the creator of the Sabath

When the scriptures say that “God” created all things, the word “God is Plural” for he says “Let us” make man “in our” image.

The translators in the newer versions translated “Dia” as through. The Greek word “Dia” can be translated 'By' or 'Through'.

I have no problem with either, unless it is being said that Jesus is not the builder, but just an empty shell or vessel by which God poured all his power through. I reject that for a couple of reasons.

1. Paul and John and the writer of Hebrews would not have even mentioned Jesus as the one “through” which the the Father made all thimgs, (and John even says that nothing that was made was made without him) , if they didnt intend to convey that Yeshua was the creator.

2. Heb 12:3 says all things are upheld by the Word of his (Jesus) power, and Col 1:17 says “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

Jesus is the Word. He said let there be light and by the word of his power there was light.

Here is the relationship of the Son with the Father in the creation of all things.

Jn 5:
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, *and I work*.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, *making himself equal with God.*
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: *for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

What the Son sees the Father do, the Son does also. This is a claim to deity, and those who refuse to believe his words align themselves with the Jews that sought to kill him.

Check these words out…

Jn 16:15
*All things that the Father hath are mine*: therefore said I, *that he shall take of mine*, and shall shew it unto you.

God is taking from Jesus and giving it unto us?

This untiy that he has with the Father is sharing his very being.

So did Yeshau create all things? You bet ya.

Party 1 says
I am going to build a house. So party 1 has party 2 the contractor build the house.

Party 1 says I built a house. Party 1 did build a house “through” the contractor.

But by your logic party 2 didnt build the house.

So play with words if you want but Yeshua is before all things and by him all things consist.

You should check out Is 1:18 take on this in the debate thread. This will answer your comments about YHWH.

You say…

Quote

The second addresses Eph 4:6 which you cited: while I agree w/ your hilights, I do not agree w/ your conclusion. You seem to overlook the preceding message which says, “Which he [YHWH] WROUGHT in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places….

THAT WAS WHEN he came to be exalted far above all principality, and power, and might, etc. Notice that these things happened DURING the Roman Empire, in terms of time.

If his exaltation brings him to sit at the Father's right hand NOW and not above the Father, then we can safely conclude that prior, his glory was as that of any prince, not as exalting as what he currently has, whereby he pleased the Father and for this cause, the Father lifted him above all others and gave him power over all.

To which of the angels did he say these four things?,

Hbr 1:5 ¶ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

He said these things about his son. So either the word is his son, or is not.

I dont deny that Jesus is the Son, for he is the Word/God that took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and dwelt among us.

You forgot to mention Heb 1:8

But unto the Son he saith, *Thy throne, O God*, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

You mention YHWH raising him from the dead, well then we have a contradiction dont we…

Jn 2:
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days *I will raise it up*.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, *his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.*

No we dont have a contradiction. We have Jesus the Word/God with the Father raising himself from the dead.

Thomas when he saw him he also remembered his words and “Said unto him” *My Lord and My God*

Sorry cubes, there is only one way to harmonize all scriptures

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is One God.

One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

April 30, 2007 at 5:24 pm#51000

Participant

WJ,
I think it's time we focused on the first covenant to interpret the second covenant:
I like that you brought in the Genesis verse regarding “let us create man in our image…” It's a good place to begin and work our way forward. Please see my new thread: precept upon precept, line upon line…which I hope to create to address some of your points.

April 30, 2007 at 7:18 pm#51009

Participant

Hi W,
You said
“Sorry cubes, there is only one way to harmonize all scriptures

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is One God.

One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.”

Scripture interprets scripture.
Intellectual theological concepts cannot be added to scripture to resolve anything.

April 30, 2007 at 11:06 pm#51055

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,09:18)

So did Yeshau create all things? You bet ya.

Party 1 says I am going to build a house. So party 1 has party 2 the contractor build the house.

Party 1 says I built a house. Party 1 did build a house “through” the contractor.

But by your logic party 2 didnt build the house.

So play with words if you want but Yeshua is before all things and by him all things consist.

You should check out Is 1:18 take on this in the debate thread. This will answer your comments about YHWH.

Hi WJ,

My response to the link you posted is on page 7 of said link.

I honor Christ as the Father's chosen to be my Lord, but when push comes to shove, bottomline, the owner of the property is the owner of the property as he lives, and YHWH lives and is not Christ.

April 30, 2007 at 11:10 pm#51057

Participant

Hi W,
Mr Dow has done a lot of construction.
He owns the work and the buck stops with him.
Probably hasn't touched a shovel for years but so what?

May 1, 2007 at 8:33 pm#51155

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,11:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,09:18)

So did Yeshau create all things? You bet ya.

Party 1 says I am going to build a house. So party 1 has party 2 the contractor build the house.

Party 1 says I built a house. Party 1 did build a house “through” the contractor.

But by your logic party 2 didnt build the house.

So play with words if you want but Yeshua is before all things and by him all things consist.

You should check out Is 1:18 take on this in the debate thread. This will answer your comments about YHWH.

Hi WJ,

My response to the link you posted is on page 7 of said link.

I honor Christ as the Father's chosen to be my Lord, but when push comes to shove, bottomline, the owner of the property is the owner of the property as he lives, and YHWH lives and is not Christ.

Cubes

You are correct.

Yeshua, YHWH is not the Father!

May 1, 2007 at 8:35 pm#51157

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,11:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,09:18)

So did Yeshau create all things? You bet ya.

Party 1 says I am going to build a house. So party 1 has party 2 the contractor build the house.

Party 1 says I built a house. Party 1 did build a house “through” the contractor.

But by your logic party 2 didnt build the house.

So play with words if you want but Yeshua is before all things and by him all things consist.

You should check out Is 1:18 take on this in the debate thread. This will answer your comments about YHWH.

Hi WJ,

My response to the link you posted is on page 7 of said link.

I honor Christ as the Father's chosen to be my Lord, but when push comes to shove, bottomline, the owner of the property is the owner of the property as he lives, and YHWH lives and is not Christ.

Cubes

BTW

My response to your response is also on said link!

Blessings

May 1, 2007 at 8:42 pm#51161

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2007,08:33)

Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,11:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,09:18)

So did Yeshau create all things? You bet ya.

Party 1 says I am going to build a house. So party 1 has party 2 the contractor build the house.

Party 1 says I built a house. Party 1 did build a house “through” the contractor.

But by your logic party 2 didnt build the house.

So play with words if you want but Yeshua is before all things and by him all things consist.

You should check out Is 1:18 take on this in the debate thread. This will answer your comments about YHWH.

Hi WJ,

My response to the link you posted is on page 7 of said link.

I honor Christ as the Father's chosen to be my Lord, but when push comes to shove, bottomline, the owner of the property is the owner of the property as he lives, and YHWH lives and is not Christ.

Cubes

You are correct.

Yeshua, YHWH is not the Father!

Hi W,
God told us he was I AM WHO AM.

Somehow you seem to assume this also applies to the Son who also was in the beginning before Abraham.
He said before Abraham I AM.
But he never said he was I AM WHO AM.

So why do you confuse the Son with his Dad?

May 1, 2007 at 9:29 pm#51164

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ May 01 2007,11:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2007,09:18)

So did Yeshau create all things? You bet ya.

Party 1 says I am going to build a house. So party 1 has party 2 the contractor build the house.

Party 1 says I built a house. Party 1 did build a house “through” the contractor.

But by your logic party 2 didnt build the house.

So play with words if you want but Yeshua is before all things and by him all things consist.

You should check out Is 1:18 take on this in the debate thread. This will answer your comments about YHWH.

Hi WJ,

My response to the link you posted is on page 7 of said link.

I honor Christ as the Father's chosen to be my Lord, but when push comes to shove, bottomline, the owner of the property is the owner of the property as he lives, and YHWH lives and is not Christ.

Cubes

Also, the last time I checked Yeshua is the Owner of the property and was from the beginning.

“All things were made by him and *For him*“.

Proverbs 16:14
The LORD hath made *all things for himself*: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: *all things were created by him, and for him*:

Jn 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Jn 16:15
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that *(the Father*) he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What kind of being could manage all that belonged to the Father?

These are valid questions. A mere man or anointed prophet or an Angel?

Jn 1:1 tells us.

Another one of those contradictions huh?

Do you think maybe the writers of the NT new the Hebrew scriptures?

No contradictions. The Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost is found in scriptures as One God and three persons.

I am so glad that I am not on the other side trying to refute all the scriptural evidence.

I think I would end up like Thomas saying “My Lord and My God!”.

May 1, 2007 at 9:39 pm#51165

Participant

Hi W,
Do you think Thomas was following your line of inference?
Or did he understand God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself?

May 1, 2007 at 9:49 pm#51166

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,09:39)

Hi W,
Do you think Thomas was following your line of inference?
Or did he understand God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself?

Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.

I know you would like for it to be inference.

Because the only inference here is you saying…

Quote

Or did he understand God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself?

May 1, 2007 at 10:25 pm#51172