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Quote Hey guess what David, for the first time in living memory members of your church knocked on my door. It happaned yesterday morning. I instantly feel unimaginably sorry for them. (just kidding) But really. (half kidding)
I take it you're often not home.Quote They said they would do some research and get back to me on some of my questions. They also said they would bring with them someone with some expertise in the biblical languages. I sincerely hope they do. I'm still waiting for someone from your religion (and I actually have no idea what that it, but it doesn't matter) to come to my door.
I really believe we must have visited you several times. Maybe we've spoken to your wife, or maybe neither of you aren't home often and we've left tracts or magazines or invitations in your mail box.
Where did you say you lived? Sweden, ..I should say, if you actually do want them to come back and see you, try not to use false logic or tell them that you know more than they do because you've read all the books on the shelf behind you or because you speak Greek or Aramaic. Understand that they are primarily to share the good news with you. When we find someone who spends every day looking up theological words, we will find it interesting and fun, but often completely utterly pointless. We're not there to change your religion convince you the trinity is a big fat lie, but rather to share the good news with you that Jesus fortold we would come to you with. (Mat 24:14) And at the same time, it's somewhat of a warning work, a wake up call. Many out there don't ever consider these things or consider the time we are living in.
Anyway, I'm looking forword to someone from your group who thinks it's important enough information to come and see me.
I truly can't remember, who are you affiliated with? Anyone?
Quote (Tim2 @ April 22 2007,17:16) Nick, Saying that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God are three different statements. Each one is explicitly taught in Scripture. This isn't putting anything together. It's just saying what Scripture says.
By your own standards you can only believe one statement in the Bible, because if you believe more than one Scriptural statement, then you're putting different Scriptures together.
Tim
Really Tim2,
Have you found the vital verse that says it all or are we still into patchwork quilts?Quote (david @ April 22 2007,17:33) I instantly feel unimaginably sorry for them. (just kidding) But really. (half kidding)
I take it you're often not home.
Like I said, it was the first time I remember getting a knock on the door from a WT. A couple of years ago a couple of woman accosted me in my driveway as I was leaving in the car. An the only othet time I have had a physical meeting is when I was on holiday in another town. Although I think they must be doing a shoddy job of prostylizing my area, I told them I thought, in principal, that it was a brave and commendable thing to door knock and speak to people about the Bible (at least that's the exterior premise of the activity), but if they are preaching falsely then there is nothing to commend that…..and there isn't.Quote I'm still waiting for someone from your religion (and I actually have no idea what that it, but it doesn't matter) to come to my door.
My religion? If anything I am areligious David. Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Christianity, as it is defined in the NT, is antithetical to this. I am a christian David, that's it.Blessings
Quote (david @ April 22 2007,17:39) I should say, if you actually do want them to come back and see you, try not to use false logic or tell them that you know more than they do because you've read all the books on the shelf behind you or because you speak Greek or Aramaic. Understand that they are primarily to share the good news with you. When we find someone who spends every day looking up theological words, we will find it interesting and fun, but often completely utterly pointless. We're not there to change your religion convince you the trinity is a big fat lie, but rather to share the good news with you that Jesus fortold we would come to you with. (Mat 24:14) And at the same time, it's somewhat of a warning work, a wake up call. Many out there don't ever consider these things or consider the time we are living in. Anyway, I'm looking forword to someone from your group who thinks it's important enough information to come and see me.
It's true, I haven't been pshycologically coerced into door knocking by an organisation, but nevertheless I am frequently here discussing biblical matters with you, telling you about the real Yeshua, the One Who can save your soul (as I told your contemporaries who visited me yesterday). Will you recieve Him David? I hope one day you will.Quote I truly can't remember, who are you affiliated with? Anyone?
He he….who am I affiliated with?Jesus Christ.
Hi Is 1.18,
You said in another post.
” If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?”
Pure inference.
Is it possible to show you believe God is a trinity without INFERENCE?Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2007,22:04) Quote (Cubes @ April 22 2007,06:33) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 21 2007,22:12) Do you suppose it means that God is “one” individual [person]?
Greetings Is,
(From Pg 3) Yes it does mean “one” individual as NH states.
Quote Well that would be inference, wouldn't it?
It wouldn't be when you have the facts to support the conclusion.Only one individual makes a Father of any given person(s).
I think that's proof enough. Don't you?
Hiya Cubes,
It's proof that the Father of Yeshua, an individual personage, is “God”, yes. But that's not contested by either side here.
Hi Is.,I am glad we agree.
The question that awaits us is whether the Father IS YHWH.
And also, as you said, where it is explicitly stated that YHWH is an INDIVIDUAL personality or UNIpersonalQuote Where in scripture is it explicitly stated that YHWH is unipersonal? If I say that “2” represents 1+1, and is also 4-2, and 2X1, and 100-98, etc would that change the value or quantity of 2?
And how do I know what “2” is except I see it in relationship to other values?
I would not call that inference. It's factual and interpretive.
The trouble with the doctrine of Trinity is is that quite often, “2” does not have the same value given the scriptural data available. Yes, the data is saying 100-98, and your doctrine is coming up with 3 (not sure if pun is intended! LOL), or 1.And our question is, how do you account for the extra one or missing 1?
And we find that given the scriptural data, the numbers add up and we are confident of the truth because tested in various ways, it checks out…. speaking of basics.
——————
YHWH is One.
He is GOD.- Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God [is] one YHWH:
2. GOD is YHWH, He is the Father that both Yeshua and the Jews acknowledge and claim.
- Jhn 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.
3. Jesus identifies GOD to be YHWH and The Father.
- Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
I believe that there is abundant scriptural proof to test the Claim that (and to show that Jesus is not him):
a. YHWH is one.
b. YHWH is the Father, so an individual (single being)
c. YHWH is the Only Most High GOD.
d. YHWH is the GOD and Father of our Lord Yeshua and of all.If you need more explicit scriptures, to substantiate, I'd be happy to supply them given some time to put them together.
Shalom.
Hi Cubes, sorry time is short so I'll have to be brief and to the point.
Quote (Cubes @ April 23 2007,06:53) Hi Is., I am glad we agree.
The question that awaits us is whether the Father IS YHWH.
And also, as you said, where it is explicitly stated that YHWH is an INDIVIDUAL personality or UNIpersonal
Is the Father YHWH – Yes. We've established that I believe. No one is arguing it.Quote If I say that “2” represents 1+1, and is also 4-2, and 2X1, and 100-98, etc would that change the value or quantity of 2? And how do I know what “2” is except I see it in relationship to other values?
Yes Cubes, I can confirm that 2 is a real number and the trinitarians haven't overlooked the discrete mathmatics involved here…modalists? yes. Bitheists? yes. But not trinitarians.
Quote I would not call that inference. It's factual and interpretive.
1 person + 1 Person = 2 people.We agree it seems, the Father and Son are two distinct persons.
Quote The trouble with the doctrine of Trinity is is that quite often, “2” does not have the same value given the scriptural data available. Yes, the data is saying 100-98, and your doctrine is coming up with 3 (not sure if pun is intended! LOL), or 1.
It's trouble for the modalist, but not the trinitarian. Cubes, I wonder if I could ask you to do something for me? Can you encapsulate what you believe to be my understanding of the trinity doctrine in one concise statement? I think we are talking at cross purposes….quite often happans here.Quote And our question is, how do you account for the extra one or missing 1?
Who is “our”? Exactly who are you writing on behalf of here Cubes? If by “extra one” you mean the Holy Spirit, “He” hasn't been discounted by me….Quote And we find that given the scriptural data, the numbers add up and we are confident of the truth because tested in various ways, it checks out…. speaking of basics. ——————
YHWH is One.
He is GOD.
Yes but “One” what? Where is the predicate in the statement “YHWH is One”?Quote - Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God [is] one YHWH:
2. GOD is YHWH, He is the Father that both Yeshua and the Jews acknowledge and claim.
- Jhn 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.
3. Jesus identifies GOD to be YHWH and The Father.
- Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Yes very good proof for The Father being YHWH. We both agree on that one, right?Quote I believe that there is abundant scriptural proof to test the Claim that (and to show that Jesus is not him): a. YHWH is one.
b. YHWH is the Father, so an individual (single being)
c. YHWH is the Only Most High GOD.
d. YHWH is the GOD and Father of our Lord Yeshua and of all.
Cubes, you would have an excellent argument here if the affirmation “YHWH is one” instead read “YHWH is one person”. It doesn't. That's the missing piece. Back to square one.The other problem with this approach is that it conveniently ignores other scriptural data in which:
- Yeshua is explicitly ascribed the divine name YHWH (as well as “theos” in a context that clearly denotes deity)
- Yeshua is ascribed the divine privileges/prerogatives
- Yeshua is said to have fulfilled prophecies made of YHWH
- Yeshua has applied to Him OT quotations that exclusively reference YHWH.
etc etc…
Quote If you need more explicit scriptures, to substantiate, I'd be happy to supply them given some time to put them together.
What I need was specified in my last post to you, i.e. a statement in the Bible that explicitly shows that YHWH is one person. I still haven't been given that.Blessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2007,22:35) Hi Cubes, sorry time is short so I'll have to be brief and to the point. Quote (Cubes @ April 23 2007,06:53) Hi Is., I am glad we agree.
The question that awaits us is whether the Father IS YHWH.
And also, as you said, where it is explicitly stated that YHWH is an INDIVIDUAL personality or UNIpersonal
Is the Father YHWH – Yes. We've established that I believe. No one is arguing it.Quote If I say that “2” represents 1+1, and is also 4-2, and 2X1, and 100-98, etc would that change the value or quantity of 2? And how do I know what “2” is except I see it in relationship to other values?
Yes Cubes, I can confirm that 2 is a real number and the trinitarians haven't overlooked the discrete mathmatics involved here…modalists? yes. Bitheists? yes. But not trinitarians.Quote I would not call that inference. It's factual and interpretive.
1 person + 1 Person = 2 people.We agree it seems, the Father and Son are two distinct persons.
Quote The trouble with the doctrine of Trinity is is that quite often, “2” does not have the same value given the scriptural data available. Yes, the data is saying 100-98, and your doctrine is coming up with 3 (not sure if pun is intended! LOL), or 1.
It's trouble for the modalist, but not the trinitarian. Cubes, I wonder if I could ask you to do something for me? Can you encapsulate what you believe to be my understanding of the trinity doctrine in one concise statement? I think we are talking at cross purposes….quite often happans here.Quote And our question is, how do you account for the extra one or missing 1?
Who is “our”? Exactly who are you writing on behalf of here Cubes? If by “extra one” you mean the Holy Spirit, “He” hasn't been discounted by me….Quote And we find that given the scriptural data, the numbers add up and we are confident of the truth because tested in various ways, it checks out…. speaking of basics. ——————
YHWH is One.
He is GOD.
Yes but “One” what? Where is the predicate in the statement “YHWH is One”?Quote - Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God [is] one YHWH:
2. GOD is YHWH, He is the Father that both Yeshua and the Jews acknowledge and claim.
- Jhn 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.
3. Jesus identifies GOD to be YHWH and The Father.
- Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Yes very good proof for The Father being YHWH. We both agree on that one, right?Quote I believe that there is abundant scriptural proof to test the Claim that (and to show that Jesus is not him): a. YHWH is one.
b. YHWH is the Father, so an individual (single being)
c. YHWH is the Only Most High GOD.
d. YHWH is the GOD and Father of our Lord Yeshua and of all.
Cubes, you would have an excellent argument here if the affirmation “YHWH is one” instead read “YHWH is one person”. It doesn't. That's the missing piece. Back to square one.The other problem with this approach is that it conveniently ignores other scriptural data in which:
- Yeshua is explicitly ascribed the divine name YHWH (as well as “theos” in a context that clearly denotes deity)
- Yeshua is ascribed the divine privileges/prerogatives
- Yeshua is said to have fulfilled prophecies made of YHWH
- Yeshua has applied to Him OT quotations that exclusively reference YHWH.
etc etc…
Quote If you need more explicit scriptures, to substantiate, I'd be happy to supply them given some time to put them together.
What I need was specified in my last post to you, i.e. a statement in the Bible that explicitly shows that YHWH is one person. I still haven't been given that.Blessings
Hi Is,My understanding of the Trinity is… three INDIVIDUALS (distinct persons) who ARE and IS, essentially the SAME substance (single or group) of life and being; therefore having the same sovereignty, authority, splendor, worship and dominion.
For me, of course, there is only one being who rules and reigns above all in and out of the universe, from eternity to eternity, who made, sustains and gives life to all (including the Christ), he is the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus and of me.
“Our” to me represents anyone who believes this; and also that Jesus/Yeshua is the Messiah and son of [that] GOD who worships GOD.
All I can do at this point is establish that the Father IS who is meant by scripture as YHWH GOD. Since we've already agreed that:
- YHWH is One GOD. (But for us, there is one GOD).
- He/GOD/YHWH is the Father (of the Lord Yeshua).
- The Father is an individual.
That is explicit enough…nontheless, perhaps the Lord would show an even more explicit verse in the coming days. Something for me to consider.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 23 2007,22:35) What I need was specified in my last post to you, i.e. a statement in the Bible that explicitly shows that YHWH is one person. I still haven't been given that. Hi Is,
One GOD and Father who is Spirit, yes…
Not one “person.”Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Praise God.
That is explicit.
It bears repeating, and to have scripture interpret scripture:
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our GOD [is] one YHWH:
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
By these scriptures we see that YHWH is One, GOD and Father of all. We already know that it is written, he is the God and Father of Jesus too. No inferences.Heb. 9:24: “Christ entered . . . into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”
Hi,
We hear so often that things could not be understood outside of a trinity framework.
No excuse.
You cannot add to the word of God to try to prove anything.
Anathema.
So what if we have to admit we do not understand, as Peter did?
Abide.Quote (Cubes @ April 24 2007,12:22) It bears repeating, and to have scripture interpret scripture: Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our GOD [is] one YHWH:
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
By these scriptures we see that YHWH is One, GOD and Father of all. We already know that it is written, he is the God and Father of Jesus too. No inferences.
Hi Cubes,
There is more than meets the eye with Ephesians 4:6, aside from the very many verses attesting to Yeshua indwelling us by His Spirit, there is this verse:John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.Hmmm, looks like the “One God” indwelling us is a “we” and an “our”…
How do you explain this Cubes?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 24 2007,16:37) Quote (Cubes @ April 24 2007,12:22) It bears repeating, and to have scripture interpret scripture: Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YHWH our GOD [is] one YHWH:
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
By these scriptures we see that YHWH is One, GOD and Father of all. We already know that it is written, he is the God and Father of Jesus too. No inferences.
Hi Cubes,
There is more than meets the eye with Ephesians 4:6, aside from the very many verses attesting to Yeshua indwelling us by His Spirit, there is this verse:John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.Hmmm, looks like the “One God” indwelling us is a “we” and an “our”…
How do you explain this Cubes?
Is 1:18Excellent point.
Of course there is no answer for the Arian view.
For as we know there is only One Spirit that we have been made to drink into, and scriptures teach that that Spirit is God.
Yet we read it is Christ.
Yet we read it is the comforter.
Arianistic and Unitarians and Henotheist have a Bible with 66 books but use a lot of white out.
Exactly WJ. There is really only one view that accounts for all the biblical data, and daylight is second.
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