- This topic is empty.
- Posts
There seem to be a lot of threads that ask if something is implied. The Dictionary defines “implied” as
: to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement
: to contain potentially
: to express indirectly
Why is it that every mystery religion I encounter has parts that are implied or need to be revealed to me. Isn’t the Bible sufficient to express itself clearly without implication or revealing? I guess I should at least applaud their honesty in admitting that there are no direct statements about their mystery but only implications. Well I for one prefer very clear cut scripture over implication any time.
For example this verse –
For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Man in both cases in this verse is anthropos and can only mean one thing. Completely human. There is no implication about it.
Now some on here want to tell me that Jesus is not like us. They want to say that he is dual natured man/God or that he has some prior life because they believe other verse “imply” such a thing. It is always something that is out there on the fringe and not clearly spoken of in scripture. I do not need to imply anything in the above verses. I do not need to imply anything in the 93 times Jesus is called the son of man.
Hundreds of verses clearly call Christ man. Those on the implication fringe try to sell you some fantasy about him being man but also being not man. A man that is also God is not a man. A man that preexists is not a man. Jesus is a man. No matter how much they want to spout and shake, they cannot have it both ways. Get over it and deal with it.martian
Mat 16:13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
No implications here, understanding comes from God, period.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
No implications here, God could not have “send” his son, had he not been with him in heaven.
Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
No implications here, he came as a “man” (human being), not as an angel (spirit being).
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Sep. 26 2010,19:39) martian Mat 16:13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
No implications here, understanding comes from God, period.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
No implications here, God could not have “send” his son, had he not been with him in heaven.
Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
No implications here, he came as a “man” (human being), not as an angel (spirit being).
Georg
Mat 16:13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
No implications here, understanding comes from God, period.
Reply-
Ok I can agree with that part.You say-
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.No implications here, God could not have “send” his son, had he not been with him in heaven.
Reply-
So the fact that God sent him means without doubt that he came from heaven?
Were all of these also in heaven?
Genesis 45:5 ”Now do not be grieved or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life.
Genesis 45:8 ”Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.
Exodus 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?”
Judges 6:8 that the LORD sent a prophet to the sons of Israel, and he said to them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'It was I who brought you up from Egypt and brought you out from the house of slavery.
Judges 13:8 Then Manoah entreated the LORD and said, “O Lord, please let the man of God whom You have sent come to us again that he may teach us what to do for the boy who is to be born.”
1 Samuel 25:32 Then David said to Abigail, ” Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, who sent you this day to meet me,
Jeremiah 43:1 [ In Egypt Jeremiah Warns of Judgment ] But as soon as Jeremiah, whom the LORD their God had sent, had finished telling all the people all the words of the LORD their God–that is, all these words—
Zechariah 6:15 ” Those who are far off will come and build the temple of the LORD ” Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you And it will take place if you completely obey the LORD your God.By using your strategy I can say all these above came from heaven. You are doing exactly what I said. You imply that Jesus being sent from God means he was sent from heaven via some preexistence.
Was John in Heaven before coming to the Earth?
John 1:6 [ The Witness John ] There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.How about this one. —
John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, ” Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME – FROM HEAVEN? – I SEND YOU
Did Jesus send them from heaven?George,
Those human beings who live by the Spirit of God are sons of God and the Messiah is their archetype or primary and thus a Son of God.
God has no deities as children as he clearly states he is the first and the last.
He does have angelic beings of several types in his hosts and they too are called sons of God but Jesus was put over them as well as over us.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2010,05:37) God has no deities as children as he clearly states he is the first and the last.
Hi Kerwin,Then what do you make of John 1:18 that says Jesus is the “only begotten god”?
What do you make of the other scriptures where Jesus is referred to as a “god”? Like Is 9:6 for example?
ps, God doesn't say He is the only “god”, or “mighty one” in existence, only that none came before Him and there will be none who will be in existence after Him.
Scripture DOES say however, that He is the God of gods and the only Almighty God. He is the “mightiest of the mighty ones”, but not the only “mighty one”.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 27 2010,06:25) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2010,05:37) God has no deities as children as he clearly states he is the first and the last.
Hi Kerwin,Then what do you make of John 1:18 that says Jesus is the “only begotten god”?
What do you make of the other scriptures where Jesus is referred to as a “god”? Like Is 9:6 for example?
ps, God doesn't say He is the only “god”, or “mighty one” in existence, only that none came before Him and there will be none who will be in existence after Him.
Scripture DOES say however, that He is the God of gods and the only Almighty God. He is the “mightiest of the mighty ones”, but not the only “mighty one”.
mike
Let me give a partial answer – Isa 9:6
Unto you a child is born a son is given and his name shall be called wonderful councelor ect.
The word name in this verse is the hebrew word shem and means character. this verse is not identifying Christ as the mighty God but that his character will be like him.
As to only begotten God that is already a thread on the boardQuote (martian @ Sep. 26 2010,09:42) There seem to be a lot of threads that ask if something is implied. The Dictionary defines “implied” as : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement
: to contain potentially
: to express indirectly
Why is it that every mystery religion I encounter has parts that are implied or need to be revealed to me. Isn’t the Bible sufficient to express itself clearly without implication or revealing? I guess I should at least applaud their honesty in admitting that there are no direct statements about their mystery but only implications. Well I for one prefer very clear cut scripture over implication any time.
For example this verse –
For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Man in both cases in this verse is anthropos and can only mean one thing. Completely human. There is no implication about it.
Now some on here want to tell me that Jesus is not like us. They want to say that he is dual natured man/God or that he has some prior life because they believe other verse “imply” such a thing. It is always something that is out there on the fringe and not clearly spoken of in scripture. I do not need to imply anything in the above verses. I do not need to imply anything in the 93 times Jesus is called the son of man.
Hundreds of verses clearly call Christ man. Those on the implication fringe try to sell you some fantasy about him being man but also being not man. A man that is also God is not a man. A man that preexists is not a man. Jesus is a man. No matter how much they want to spout and shake, they cannot have it both ways. Get over it and deal with it.
Hi Martian,Show us all the clear cut verse that says none of us pre-existed?
I look forward to you showing us all this clear cut verse!Mike Boll,
In the Law God declares the people are his children if they believe him and so do all he commands even though he also knew they were enslaved to sin. Later he states in a few places that they are gods even though he also states he is the only God.
Since they who are still in bondage to sin are called gods so much more should the one who is free of such bondage and sets others free be called God.
Hi Kerwin,
I concur. We agree that Jesus is a “mighty one”, or “god”……..but not THE God.
Now what do we do with those scriptures that say Jesus is the “exact representation of God”, and is in the “nature of God” and “God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in him”?
Can we go a little further and assume from statements like the above that Jesus is “divine”?
Trust me, I know Jesus is NOT Jehovah, or even equal to Him.
peace and love,
mikeMike Boll,
The first is also a case of mis-defining words as is done by those who do not speak fluently in a language. In this case the languages is spiritual and the speaker is not being so. “Nature” simply means God's righteous and holy nature which we also instructed to emulate.
“Fullness” though is a vague term when used by itself as it is describing something. Since the something is about the relationship between Jesus and God the writer was assuming his hearers knew already. His assumption is called an implication. We know that it could be God's nature he is implying.
“Representation” is also a vague term used as “Fullness” and the same argument applies to it even to it's likely describing God's nature.
You simply must learn the language that God teaches before you understand what he teaches.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 27 2010,07:04) Quote (martian @ Sep. 26 2010,09:42) There seem to be a lot of threads that ask if something is implied. The Dictionary defines “implied” as : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement
: to contain potentially
: to express indirectly
Why is it that every mystery religion I encounter has parts that are implied or need to be revealed to me. Isn’t the Bible sufficient to express itself clearly without implication or revealing? I guess I should at least applaud their honesty in admitting that there are no direct statements about their mystery but only implications. Well I for one prefer very clear cut scripture over implication any time.
For example this verse –
For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Man in both cases in this verse is anthropos and can only mean one thing. Completely human. There is no implication about it.
Now some on here want to tell me that Jesus is not like us. They want to say that he is dual natured man/God or that he has some prior life because they believe other verse “imply” such a thing. It is always something that is out there on the fringe and not clearly spoken of in scripture. I do not need to imply anything in the above verses. I do not need to imply anything in the 93 times Jesus is called the son of man.
Hundreds of verses clearly call Christ man. Those on the implication fringe try to sell you some fantasy about him being man but also being not man. A man that is also God is not a man. A man that preexists is not a man. Jesus is a man. No matter how much they want to spout and shake, they cannot have it both ways. Get over it and deal with it.
Hi Martian,Show us all the clear cut verse that says none of us pre-existed?
I look forward to you showing us all this clear cut verse!
What kind of silliness is this? You want me to show you a verse where something did not happen? Why do I not show you a verse that says that elephants don't fly. If I can't that must mean they can?Mike……….You so-called “clear cut scriptures” are text you force the context to meet your personal dogmas of preexistences , I have ask you for a “clear cut scripture” before that says “JESUS PREEXISTED HIS EARTH EXISTENCE AS A BEING OF SOME KIND”. You don't even have to tell us what (KIND) of being he was, Just a “clear cut scripture that says that is good enough. Taking Pli 2 and others out of the context that was being talked about is hardly what I or anyone else should call a “CLEAR CUT SCRIPTURE”, it is what MYSTERY RELIGION does it alters our perception of Jesus and who he is and deny his humanity and our likeness to him.
peace and love……………………………..gene
Quote (martian @ Sep. 28 2010,00:25) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 27 2010,07:04) Quote (martian @ Sep. 26 2010,09:42) There seem to be a lot of threads that ask if something is implied. The Dictionary defines “implied” as : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement
: to contain potentially
: to express indirectly
Why is it that every mystery religion I encounter has parts that are implied or need to be revealed to me. Isn’t the Bible sufficient to express itself clearly without implication or revealing? I guess I should at least applaud their honesty in admitting that there are no direct statements about their mystery but only implications. Well I for one prefer very clear cut scripture over implication any time.
For example this verse –
For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Man in both cases in this verse is anthropos and can only mean one thing. Completely human. There is no implication about it.
Now some on here want to tell me that Jesus is not like us. They want to say that he is dual natured man/God or that he has some prior life because they believe other verse “imply” such a thing. It is always something that is out there on the fringe and not clearly spoken of in scripture. I do not need to imply anything in the above verses. I do not need to imply anything in the 93 times Jesus is called the son of man.
Hundreds of verses clearly call Christ man. Those on the implication fringe try to sell you some fantasy about him being man but also being not man. A man that is also God is not a man. A man that preexists is not a man. Jesus is a man. No matter how much they want to spout and shake, they cannot have it both ways. Get over it and deal with it.
Hi Martian,Show us all the clear cut verse that says none of us pre-existed?
I look forward to you showing us all this clear cut verse!
What kind of silliness is this? You want me to show you a verse where something did not happen? Why do I not show you a verse that says that elephants don't fly. If I can't that must mean they can?
Hi Martian,You can't produce a verse to corroborate your assertion of no pre-existance, yet you still believe it?
Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth
out of the womb I sanctified thee, I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you
from the Father, the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,
he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because
ye have been with me from the beginning.Ed J.
My mother has been with me from the beginning therefore according to you it follows that she pre-exists. I fail to understand how that is so.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2010,14:07) Ed J. My mother has been with me from the beginning therefore according to you it follows that she pre-exists. I fail to understand how that is so.
Hi Kerwin,What does your mother have to do with what I said?
'Ed J,
The word beginning is vague as it is a descriptive word. The something that is being described is simply not mentioned in John 15:26-27 and therefore is implied. John's First Century readers most likely knew what Jesus was speaking of but you seemed to have missed it. Have you ever considered the possibility Jesus was speaking of his ministry and not creation?
I did not mention Jeremiah 1:5 but will now. Do you believe in prophecy? Can one prophesy of an individual existing before they do? If the answer to the later question yes and one must know about someone to foretell about them then it follows one can know about someone before they exist.
Neither verse you chose to use backed up your point.
The word “conceive” can mean “form” as in “I conceived an idea”. A number of scripture speak of Jesus being conceived in Mary's reproductive system.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2010,15:43) 'Ed J, The word beginning is vague as it is a descriptive word. The something that is being described is simply not mentioned in John 15:26-27 and therefore is implied. John's First Century readers most likely knew what Jesus was speaking of but you seemed to have missed it. Have you ever considered the possibility Jesus was speaking of his ministry and not creation?
I did not mention Jeremiah 1:5 but will now. Do you believe in prophecy? Can one prophesy of an individual existing before they do? If the answer to the later question yes and one must know about someone to foretell about them then it follows one can know about someone before they exist.
Neither verse you chose to use backed up your point.
The word “conceive” can mean “form” as in “I conceived an idea”. A number of scripture speak of Jesus being conceived in Mary's reproductive system.
Hi Kerwin,I'm not trying to change your mind as you might think, this
all started because Martian says he goes by clear-cut Scriptures.You helped me to illustrate that even John 15:26-27 is not so clear-cut!
And Martian agrees there is no Scripture that says we did not pre-exist!So you all can continue to argue over irrelevant things if you wish.
I will only persist if you or others seek agreement with me!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd J,
You fail to understand my tactics. First, I was pointing out the flaws in your arguments irrelevant of whether I agree or disagree with your conclusions. Second, I pointed out that according to the meaning of conceived and the exact wording of Jeremiah 1:5 Jesus and thus other human beings are formed in their mother’s womb. In that way I am striving for consensus. I am not at this point saying what part of a human being is formed in their mother’s womb as the breath of God that gives us life comes from above and can be seen to pre-exist our existence in our mother’s womb. I have still left much unanswered as we do not know what the breath of God is. Is it a human soul, a spirit, or something else?
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,13:55) Quote (martian @ Sep. 28 2010,00:25) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 27 2010,07:04) Quote (martian @ Sep. 26 2010,09:42) There seem to be a lot of threads that ask if something is implied. The Dictionary defines “implied” as : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement
: to contain potentially
: to express indirectly
Why is it that every mystery religion I encounter has parts that are implied or need to be revealed to me. Isn’t the Bible sufficient to express itself clearly without implication or revealing? I guess I should at least applaud their honesty in admitting that there are no direct statements about their mystery but only implications. Well I for one prefer very clear cut scripture over implication any time.
For example this verse –
For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Man in both cases in this verse is anthropos and can only mean one thing. Completely human. There is no implication about it.
Now some on here want to tell me that Jesus is not like us. They want to say that he is dual natured man/God or that he has some prior life because they believe other verse “imply” such a thing. It is always something that is out there on the fringe and not clearly spoken of in scripture. I do not need to imply anything in the above verses. I do not need to imply anything in the 93 times Jesus is called the son of man.
Hundreds of verses clearly call Christ man. Those on the implication fringe try to sell you some fantasy about him being man but also being not man. A man that is also God is not a man. A man that preexists is not a man. Jesus is a man. No matter how much they want to spout and shake, they cannot have it both ways. Get over it and deal with it.
Hi Martian,Show us all the clear cut verse that says none of us pre-existed?
I look forward to you showing us all this clear cut verse!
What kind of silliness is this? You want me to show you a verse where something did not happen? Why do I not show you a verse that says that elephants don't fly. If I can't that must mean they can?
Hi Martian,You can't produce a verse to corroborate your assertion of no pre-existance, yet you still believe it?
Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth
out of the womb I sanctified thee, I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you
from the Father, the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,
he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because
ye have been with me from the beginning.
Scripture says all over the place that Jesus is a man. Men do not preexist. End of story.
I cannot find a scripture that says elephants do not fly so of couse they must be able to fly.Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 28 2010,15:55) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2010,15:43) 'Ed J, The word beginning is vague as it is a descriptive word. The something that is being described is simply not mentioned in John 15:26-27 and therefore is implied. John's First Century readers most likely knew what Jesus was speaking of but you seemed to have missed it. Have you ever considered the possibility Jesus was speaking of his ministry and not creation?
I did not mention Jeremiah 1:5 but will now. Do you believe in prophecy? Can one prophesy of an individual existing before they do? If the answer to the later question yes and one must know about someone to foretell about them then it follows one can know about someone before they exist.
Neither verse you chose to use backed up your point.
The word “conceive” can mean “form” as in “I conceived an idea”. A number of scripture speak of Jesus being conceived in Mary's reproductive system.
Hi Kerwin,I'm not trying to change your mind as you might think, this
all started because Martian says he goes by clear-cut Scriptures.You helped me to illustrate that even John 15:26-27 is not so clear-cut!
And Martian agrees there is no Scripture that says we did not pre-exist!So you all can continue to argue over irrelevant things if you wish.
I will only persist if you or others seek agreement with me!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I do follow clear cut scriptures. Jesus is called human being many many times in scripture. Do human beings preexist? Yes or no?
If humanity does not preexist then Christ does not.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
