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Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 17 2008,00:20) the only thing that won't be tolerated is intolerance! Of course tolerance used to mean respecting another's rights despite different beliefs, now many want it to mean you must respect their belief and hold it as equal to your own.
Wm
So you don't have an issue with Muslims believing your faith is inferior to theirs?Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 19 2008,06:48) Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 17 2008,00:20) the only thing that won't be tolerated is intolerance! Of course tolerance used to mean respecting another's rights despite different beliefs, now many want it to mean you must respect their belief and hold it as equal to your own.
Wm
So you don't have an issue with Muslims believing your faith is inferior to theirs?
No I don't.Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 19 2008,11:45) What is truth? Truth to you may be fallacy to another.
The earth is a globe.
No the earth is a flat plain.One is true and the other is fallacy.
Nothing changes because someone believes that the earth is a flat plain. The earth doesn't suddenly become a flat plain because someone believes it is.Here are the options.
There is truth
There is the lack of truth otherwise known as ignorance or a lie.Ignorance can be excused, but a lie should be repented of.
Judge and Jury
Who really IS THE JUDGE?
And WHO GETS A DAY OFF WORK TO Judge
Who judges THE JUDGES?
While the mob rules?“An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and the world will be blind and toothless.” (M. Gandhi)
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,18:17) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 11 2008,10:53) Quote (david @ Aug. 10 2008,16:02) Quote What of the question which I have posed all too often, getting no reply at all, about what it is that you know that I cannot possibly know as a non-believer? “the peace of God that excels all thought….” Phil 4:7
From the evidence I see of Christians around me, their “peace” does not exceed my own. Next?
Yes, I think I know the 'peace of god' all too well, in fact better than many christians.Deu 32:39-42 I kill … I wound … I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh.
Stuart
Stuart,Are you willing to imagine that these words were written by men? Perhaps they were written by men who loved dark poetry and were filled with vengence….. Are you willing to try and reconcile this beautiful planet with all it's gifts with a God who possibly could have given us these gifts and never wrote those words that offend you so? If not, you trust the bible more than I do!
I do not believe that God's character can be that drastic (killing, raping, wounding one minute and then loving and saving another minute). There must be an explaination? Benefit of the doubt would work nicely here, don't you think?
Love,
MandyQuote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2008,03:44) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 19 2008,11:45) What is truth? Truth to you may be fallacy to another.
The earth is a globe.
No the earth is a flat plain.One is true and the other is fallacy.
Nothing changes because someone believes that the earth is a flat plain. The earth doesn't suddenly become a flat plain because someone believes it is.Here are the options.
There is truth
There is the lack of truth otherwise known as ignorance or a lie.Ignorance can be excused, but a lie should be repented of.
In the context of discussion, you know what I refer to. What you say about the nature of any god may or may not be true but the same can be said of another god. So while there may be “truth”, we have no way of discerning which version is really the “truth”. All you are left with is belief (call it “faith” if you like).While we do not have absolute proof and some faith is required, I disagree that God doesn't offer some proof.
Quote
because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen,Quote
“the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness”Quote
23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.24″The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29″Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
None of us will ever have all truth in this life and I believe to whom much is given much is expected. I further believe that all men at some point choose to either accept or reject some level of truth (which may not even include the knowledge of Jesus) by which they determine their adhering to the law of love by which they can gain entry into the kingdom (the sheep in Matthew 25) and (1 John 4:7-8″…love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” ).
Just to be clear it is only through the sacrifice of Jesus that any of us has access to salvation and I believe there is great benefit to being a Christian. But, I believe the scriptures are clear that the Kingdom will include those surprised at their entrance
Quote 37`Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink? 38and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40`And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren — the least — to me ye did [it].
However I am concerned for those who would twist the truth or stand in the way of those seeking it. It's one thing to argue a point and another to ridicule those of faith.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,03:29) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 11 2008,18:17) Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 11 2008,10:53) Quote (david @ Aug. 10 2008,16:02) Quote What of the question which I have posed all too often, getting no reply at all, about what it is that you know that I cannot possibly know as a non-believer? “the peace of God that excels all thought….” Phil 4:7
From the evidence I see of Christians around me, their “peace” does not exceed my own. Next?
Yes, I think I know the 'peace of god' all too well, in fact better than many christians.Deu 32:39-42 I kill … I wound … I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh.
Stuart
Stuart,Are you willing to imagine that these words were written by men? Perhaps they were written by men who loved dark poetry and were filled with vengence….. Are you willing to try and reconcile this beautiful planet with all it's gifts with a God who possibly could have given us these gifts and never wrote those words that offend you so? If not, you trust the bible more than I do!
I do not believe that God's character can be that drastic (killing, raping, wounding one minute and then loving and saving another minute). There must be an explaination? Benefit of the doubt would work nicely here, don't you think?
Love,
Mandy
I do not use the word gifts in this context, because I do not believe there is a 'giver'.I am merely quoting the book that others say was inspired by their god. I do indeed think it was actually written by humans, solely from their own imaginations, for their own political ends.
I remain far from convinced that there is any need to invoke a god. What explanation does that give of anything?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 21 2008,22:19) I remain far from convinced that there is any need to invoke a god. What explanation does that give of anything?
Maybe you have a few ideas on why certain Atheist, when they have lost all hope, turn to God in the end? I've known a few of these – not many – but a few.For instance, their kid is lost to drugs and they turn to God and begin praying. OR their partner has AIDS and they turn to God and begin attending church. Why would an Atheist do these things?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 22 2008,04:45) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 21 2008,22:19) I remain far from convinced that there is any need to invoke a god. What explanation does that give of anything?
Maybe you have a few ideas on why certain Atheist, when they have lost all hope, turn to God in the end? I've known a few of these – not many – but a few.For instance, their kid is lost to drugs and they turn to God and begin praying. OR their partner has AIDS and they turn to God and begin attending church. Why would an Atheist do these things?
I have no idea. Delusion? It may not be true in the US and developing countries (I was going to write and other developing countries
) but in the West people are turning away from calling themselves christian at a huge rate. Mainstream denominations are closing churches by the week. Why do you think that is? Is it the influence of satan or can we use your positive argument and say that people find a better way to live outside their old doctrines?Stuart
I do believe that people are finding ways to reconcile the errors of Christianity and leaving Churchianity behind…… But like Kevin shared from the heart, it's difficult to leave those long-time relationships.
Even a lack of definition isn't a lack of truth.
In the end, you either believe that bananas popped out of nothing, i.e., singularity to bananas and other stuff, or you believe it was created perhaps from a singularity but by a creator.
You believe the one that basically says that nothing became something and everything, all on it's own and with an IQ less than 1.0. You have to admit that this belief is right up there with Santa Claus. I mean statistically speaking a frog turning into a prince has more chance of happening, i.e., a farytale has more chance of happening than that.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 23 2008,21:01) Even a lack of definition isn't a lack of truth. In the end, you either believe that bananas popped out of nothing, i.e., singularity to bananas and other stuff, or you believe it was created perhaps from a singularity but by a creator.
You believe the one that basically says that nothing became something and everything, all on it's own and with an IQ less than 1.0. You have to admit that this belief is right up there with Santa Claus. I mean statistically speaking a frog turning into a prince has more chance of happening, i.e., a farytale has more chance of happening than that.
I think you should try and stay on topic. otherwise a moderator might use that as an excuse to ban you from this section.Stuart
Aplologies for the delay in replying, I've been travelling a lot for work.
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 09 2008,23:29) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 08 2008,17:39) Can I have your scripturally-based definition for “perfect” Kejonn?, and a citation of passage in Mark where Yeshua is shown to contravene it?
They give definitions in the bible? And here I thought it was just a set of religious writings. Anywho…
Uh-ha, haven't you read Hebrews 11:1? It explicitly defines what faith is. I wasn't really looking for a verse pulled straight from the scriptures by the way. I was just a working definition of your's based on what the Bible reports on the theme of perfection, that would have satisfied me. Anywho….I'll make it easier for you….
In terms of how YHWH would expect someone to conduct themselves, how would Kejonn define perfection?
Quote Mar 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Mar 1:5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mar 1:6 Now John was clothed with camel's hair and wore a leather belt around his waist and ate locusts and wild honey.
Mar 1:7 And he preached, saying, “After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.
Mar 1:8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Mar 1:9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mar 1:10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
Mar 1:11 And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”
A couple of things should be pointed out to you here. Yeshua is our example (1 Peter 2:18-21). What He did, we should also. So it's reasonable to assume He was baptised to model this to us. Of course he didn't need to be baptised if the objective was to have his sins removed – in His whole life He had commited not one sin (1 Peter 2:22, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Peter 1:19, Hebrews 4:15). Secondly, His baptism was also requisite for his ministry in the Melchizedekan priesthood. He could not have been a legitimate High Priest and offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins unless he was first baptised. I though you would have known that Kejonn.Quote Now before you run off to the other gospels for “clarification”, recall that Mark was the first gospel written. Given that your inference above had a false premise, this point, whether true or not, is redundant.
Whoever wrote it had no reason whatsoever to convey a sinless Jesus. Those who based their works off of GMark (the writers of GMatthew and GLuke) were reflecting the evolving view of Jesus that was being developed among the various fledgling churches of the 1st century.
This assertion would carry a lot more weight if you could actually appeal to a verse reporting on an actual sin that Yeshua committed.Can you do that?
Quote Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. As much as apologetic writers want to spin this verse, it is quite plain the GMark did not see Jesus as a sinless person, and thus not perfect. But is Jesus was not perfect then he was not a spotless sacrifice, and Christianity is based on a lie. So writers after Jesus — those who likely net even met the historical figure — said he was without sin with no justification.
It's so true that people generally see what they want to see. There is nothing in the context of the Mark passage to suggest that Yehsua was giving the rich young ruler a rebuke. To my mind He was simply enquiring of him why he addressed him as “good” when that attribute belongs solely to God. There is actually no hint of a denial that He is God, and the antithesis is enforced when you look at the data pertaining to His own goodness. He is described as “good” many times in the NT (e.g. “good shepherd”) and it was said of Him that He was “without sin (Heb 4:15), “commited no sin” (1 Pet 2:22) and “knew no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21), that looks like a pretty sound CV for objective good-ness. He is also described with the terms “unblemished”, “spotless” and “Holy and righteous One”. Could anyone not-good be ascribed these terms? By any standard of measure Yeshua was good.You'll never prove Yeshua was a sinner from the Bible texts Kejonn. It's foolish to even try. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
“For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens” (Hebrews 7:26)
Quote You'll never prove Yeshua was a sinner from the Bible texts Kejonn. It's foolish to even try. The evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
The evidence that Jesus existed is not overhelming. How do you know so much about the details of what he did?Stuart
Is 1:18, before I even try, can you show me one time where Jesus himself claimed to be without sin? Just once please.
All you will find is that this claim was made by others after him because such was necessary to build up the false idea of Jesus being a “spotless” lamb.
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 31 2008,23:23) Is 1:18, before I even try, can you show me one time where Jesus himself claimed to be without sin? Just once please. All you will find is that this claim was made by others after him because such was necessary to build up the false idea of Jesus being a “spotless” lamb.
kejonn How would you even know that. Are you forgetting that He was taught by our Heavenly Father long before any Human ever existed, at least I believe so. Knowing what was at stake here, Jesus did not sin.
By my personal experience I can say that some of my sin's I will hopefully never do again. He had God's Holy Spirit full strength in Him, that's another thing.
You just want to feel negative with everything, and that is not of God.
Pray and ask God for His wisdom and show a little respect.
Good luck to you
Peace and Love Irene
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