If you disagree with the apostle's creed

[Lightenup]

So Irene,
Is the OT Catholic also? What about the NT? The vast array of non-Catholic churches use the OT and the NT, is the Bible for all universal churches or just for the Catholics, should we discard the Bible, Irene? Should we discard the truths that are written in the Apostle's Creed because the Catholics believe it? See what you are saying…if it is in the Catholic church then we are to toss it out? There goes the New Testament then…out the window.

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,12:35)

So Irene, Is the OT Catholic also?  What about the NT?  The vast array of non-Catholic churches use the OT and the NT, is the Bible for all universal churches or just for the Catholics, should we discard the Bible, Irene?  Should we discard the truths that are written in the Apostle's Creed because the Catholics believe it?  See what you are saying…if it is in the Catholic church then we are to toss it out?  There goes the New Testament then…out the window.

Kathi! You don't seem to understand. The Bible has nothing to do with the creed. We are talking about the creed, which is a Catholic creed which we said many times. The Creed is not written necessarily for all Christians….Your Husband belongs to a Church do they say the creed? Our Son goes to the Baptist Church and they do not say the creed either….Why in the world would you even say that….You know darn well that I believe in the Bible. The Catholic Church used to use the Catechism only. We never even read the Bible then…. Now I have no idea…Wait, I checked out the Universal Catholic Church and they do still use the Catechism. .Why are you so upset, because I am telling you something that is true? Look did you belong to the Catholic Church, did you say the creed? If the creed would say what we believe today, I would have no objection to it. But it says the catholic church, whether small of large letters it is still the catholic Church…..and their creed…Irene.

[shimmer]

The true original church is the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Roman Catholic Church broke away from them.

[Lightenup]

Irene,
This is not about saying the Apostle's Creed in church necessarily, it is more about whether it is scriptural. You should understand the difference of capital and small letters. You preach that Lord and lord are different and even God and god indicate a difference but you do not acknowledge that here with Catholic and catholic. You say that the Bible has nothing to do with the creed but I say that everything in the creed comes from the Bible if you understand the word catholic in small letters pertains to the Christian church that Jesus is the head of. Btw, I am not upset with you, but I do think that your logic is inconsistent. Also, I did go to a Protestant church, non-Catholic, that said the creed. It was a church that recited liturgy. The Baptist church doesn't recite liturgy so that is probably why your son's church doesn't say it, that doesn't mean they don't agree with it…they do as far as I know and I attend a Baptist church.

[shimmer]

I have family who are Greek Orthodox, and Family who are Roman Catholic. Some of them pretty big in the church too. Priests and all. I know alot about Orthodox, I have studied it well. Theres a big difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,20:30)

Irene, This is not about saying the Apostle's Creed in church necessarily, it is more about whether it is scriptural.  You should understand the difference of capital and small letters.  You preach that Lord and lord are different and even God and god indicate a difference but you do not acknowledge that here with Catholic and catholic.  You say that the Bible has nothing to do with the creed but I say that everything in the creed comes from the Bible if you understand the word catholic in small letters pertains to the Christian church that Jesus is the head of.  Btw, I am not upset with you, but I do think that your logic is inconsistent.  Also, I did go to a Protestant church, non-Catholic, that said the creed.  It was a church that recited liturgy.  The Baptist church doesn't recite liturgy so that is probably why your son's church doesn't say it, that doesn't mean they don't agree with it…they do as far as I know and I attend a Baptist church.

Kathi

is the Baptist church not the one were Charles T Russel,the founder of today JW ?

now i would say that there is truth in any christian religion and so some of that creed would apply,but how could you justify all the abomination and abusive ,and discrimination that went on in all those churches,??

they all have the bible ,but it was only used to show the lip service the preachers were doing.

same thing is happen today,but with white gloves

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 14 2010,13:32)

I have family who are Greek Orthodox, and Family who are Roman Catholic. Some of them pretty big in the church too. Priests and all. I know alot about Orthodox, I have studied it well. Theres a big difference.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

shimmer! OK I did look it up, however their practices are very similar to the Catholic Church.  They too worship Maria and call Her still Virgin, which She is not.  She had other Children…They also believe in  the trinity…I don't believe that their claim that  their Orthodox Catholic Church is the first Church.  Why do I say that?  The first three centuries the first Christians died by the Millions, by the hands of the Romans.  All Christians went underground.  And after three brutal and bloody centuries, it was Constantine who set all free and ordered that the Universal Church was the Church of their Land….Also  the Catholic Church also claims that Peter was their first Pope, which is not true either.  All Apostles died a cruel dead, Except John.  He was exiled to the Island of Petmos, where He wrote Revelation.  I did read some of the information about the Orthodox Catholic, they are  very strict….I did not see if they have a Mass or not.  But what I did read is that the Roman Catholic Church they claim came out of their Church…Boy, Oh Boy….. I tell you I am glad I don;t belong to any of them….Its enough to give you more grey hairs….Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,14:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,20:30) Irene, This is not about saying the Apostle's Creed in church necessarily, it is more about whether it is scriptural.  You should understand the difference of capital and small letters.  You preach that Lord and lord are different and even God and god indicate a difference but you do not acknowledge that here with Catholic and catholic.  You say that the Bible has nothing to do with the creed but I say that everything in the creed comes from the Bible if you understand the word catholic in small letters pertains to the Christian church that Jesus is the head of.  Btw, I am not upset with you, but I do think that your logic is inconsistent.  Also, I did go to a Protestant church, non-Catholic, that said the creed.  It was a church that recited liturgy.  The Baptist church doesn't recite liturgy so that is probably why your son's church doesn't say it, that doesn't mean they don't agree with it…they do as far as I know and I attend a Baptist church. Kathi is the Baptist church not the one were Charles T Russel,the founder of today JW ? now i would say that there is truth in any christian religion and so some of that creed would apply,but how could you justify all the abomination and abusive ,and discrimination that went on in all those churches,?? they all have the bible ,but it was only used to show the lip service the preachers were doing. same thing is happen today,but with white gloves Pierre

Pierre, you are so right….the trinity itself is an abomination to God, and not to talk about the Mass…The trinity is a man made doctrine and not of God….. All said that before…..Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,13:30)

Irene, This is not about saying the Apostle's Creed in church necessarily, it is more about whether it is scriptural.  You should understand the difference of capital and small letters.  You preach that Lord and lord are different and even God and god indicate a difference but you do not acknowledge that here with Catholic and catholic.  You say that the Bible has nothing to do with the creed but I say that everything in the creed comes from the Bible if you understand the word catholic in small letters pertains to the Christian church that Jesus is the head of.  Btw, I am not upset with you, but I do think that your logic is inconsistent.  Also, I did go to a Protestant church, non-Catholic, that said the creed.  It was a church that recited liturgy.  The Baptist church doesn't recite liturgy so that is probably why your son's church doesn't say it, that doesn't mean they don't agree with it…they do as far as I know and I attend a Baptist church.

Kathi! It is the same Church….capital letters or small…Show me where it says that it is not… I said this before, if it would not say Catholic Church I would not have any objection. It is not whether it is otherwise scriptural or not. It is because it is Catholic that I object to it….I don't have to say a creed that originated from them, to even study the Bible or believe in it….I would like to know why you find it so important to want to say it? Is the written word of God the Bible not good enough for you? It is for me. We came out of that Church and I don't want to do anything that reminds me of them…. Take it or leave its up to you…. My feelings and I know what they are Period….Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 13 2010,22:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,20:30) Irene, This is not about saying the Apostle's Creed in church necessarily, it is more about whether it is scriptural.  You should understand the difference of capital and small letters.  You preach that Lord and lord are different and even God and god indicate a difference but you do not acknowledge that here with Catholic and catholic.  You say that the Bible has nothing to do with the creed but I say that everything in the creed comes from the Bible if you understand the word catholic in small letters pertains to the Christian church that Jesus is the head of.  Btw, I am not upset with you, but I do think that your logic is inconsistent.  Also, I did go to a Protestant church, non-Catholic, that said the creed.  It was a church that recited liturgy.  The Baptist church doesn't recite liturgy so that is probably why your son's church doesn't say it, that doesn't mean they don't agree with it…they do as far as I know and I attend a Baptist church. Kathi is the Baptist church not the one were Charles T Russel,the founder of today JW ? now i would say that there is truth in any christian religion and so some of that creed would apply,but how could you justify all the abomination and abusive ,and discrimination that went on in all those churches,?? they all have the bible ,but it was only used to show the lip service the preachers were doing. same thing is happen today,but with white gloves Pierre

Pierre,
I didn't find anything saying that Russell was a Baptist but what does that matter with the topic or with the Baptist church?

You want me to explain about the abomination, abuse, and discrimination that went on in “those” churches…how can I do that? I wasn't there. What I do see is the abuse and discrimination that goes on right here though…maybe you can explain why that is since that is mainly what I feel from you towards me. See, nothing has changed, in church or out of church. The church that I go to now has never shown me abuse, discrimination or abomination towards me or anyone else. They do stand up against obvious evil but are not abusive in so doing.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,22:44)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,13:30) Irene, This is not about saying the Apostle's Creed in church necessarily, it is more about whether it is scriptural.  You should understand the difference of capital and small letters.  You preach that Lord and lord are different and even God and god indicate a difference but you do not acknowledge that here with Catholic and catholic.  You say that the Bible has nothing to do with the creed but I say that everything in the creed comes from the Bible if you understand the word catholic in small letters pertains to the Christian church that Jesus is the head of.  Btw, I am not upset with you, but I do think that your logic is inconsistent.  Also, I did go to a Protestant church, non-Catholic, that said the creed.  It was a church that recited liturgy.  The Baptist church doesn't recite liturgy so that is probably why your son's church doesn't say it, that doesn't mean they don't agree with it…they do as far as I know and I attend a Baptist church. Kathi! It is the same Church….capital letters or small…Show me where it says that it is not… I said this before, if it would not say Catholic Church I would not have any objection.  It is not whether it is otherwise scriptural or not.  It is because it is Catholic that I object to it….I don't have to say a creed that originated from them, to even study the Bible or believe in it….I would like to know why you find it so important to want to say it?  Is the written word of God the Bible not good enough for you?  It is for me.  We came out of that Church and I don't want to do anything that reminds me of them…. Take it or leave its up to you…. My feelings and I know what they are Period….Irene

Again, Irene, it is not about 'saying' it but about explaining some beliefs that may bring some unity here. Take out the word 'catholic' and that is totally great with me.

I have explained to you that Protestant churches believe this creed and some recite it. Do you not believe that? At 16, I was my church's organist…I knew the liturgy and they absolutely did recite the Apostle's creed at times, I had to play music before and after it was recited. No one that was reciting it there was claiming they were Catholics by reciting it. Why don't you believe me?

[Baker]

Kathi! Do you believe that the trinity is wrong? I do. Do most Churches now believe in the trinity? I think yes….Go ahead if you want to do this, but leave me out of it….There is no unity here…Irene.

[Proclaimer]

I don't have a problem with any of these points.
I have a problem with later creeds and the enforcement of them.

[Lightenup]

Irene,
I think most of us can agree with this creed, not you, but I think you just can't get past the word catholic. Unity of faith is an important goal and I was hoping this creed could help define a unifying faith here.

Eph 4:10-17
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
The Christian's Walk 17 So this I say, and affirm together
NASU

[Lightenup]

Thanks t8 for your input and I agree with you.

I would like to examine some other creeds also. I think that semantics is one of the reasons people struggle with some of the creeds but maybe if some terms are better explained according to their original meaning there wouldn't be such a problem. For instance, the term 'eternally begotten' which we sometimes find in the more contemporary Nicene creed replacing 'begotten before the ages' is not the original term in the Greek and, imo should be not used in any way. Also statements such as “Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance,” which is found in the Athanasian creed. What the heck does that mean anyway. I would like to at least understand the original intent before I completely dismiss it or agree with it, ya know?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,23:04)

Kathi!  Do you believe that the trinity is wrong?  I do.  Do most Churches now believe in the trinity?  I think yes….Go ahead if you want to do this, but leave me out of it….There is no unity here…Irene.

Irene,
The term 'trinity' means different things to different people. Trinity can simply mean that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all recognized as relative to God. In that way, I would agree with the term 'trinity.' Now others, the majority I suppose, define it to say that the Holy Spirit is a person and I do not go past defining the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of the Father. So, in that way I do not agree with that particular trinity concept.

I wish that you would develop a heart for unity and hold onto and build that. Read through this thread and this time look for the agreement with the creed. See how many agree with it. The only clear problem is with the word 'catholic' and when understood, it is not such a problem after all except for you.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,21:45)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 13 2010,22:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,20:30) Irene, This is not about saying the Apostle's Creed in church necessarily, it is more about whether it is scriptural.  You should understand the difference of capital and small letters.  You preach that Lord and lord are different and even God and god indicate a difference but you do not acknowledge that here with Catholic and catholic.  You say that the Bible has nothing to do with the creed but I say that everything in the creed comes from the Bible if you understand the word catholic in small letters pertains to the Christian church that Jesus is the head of.  Btw, I am not upset with you, but I do think that your logic is inconsistent.  Also, I did go to a Protestant church, non-Catholic, that said the creed.  It was a church that recited liturgy.  The Baptist church doesn't recite liturgy so that is probably why your son's church doesn't say it, that doesn't mean they don't agree with it…they do as far as I know and I attend a Baptist church. Kathi is the Baptist church not the one were Charles T Russel,the founder of today JW ? now i would say that there is truth in any christian religion and so some of that creed would apply,but how could you justify all the abomination and abusive ,and discrimination that went on in all those churches,?? they all have the bible ,but it was only used to show the lip service the preachers were doing. same thing is happen today,but with white gloves Pierre Pierre, I didn't find anything saying that Russell was a Baptist but what does that matter with the topic or with the Baptist church? You want me to explain about the abomination, abuse, and discrimination that went on in “those” churches…how can I do that?  I wasn't there.  What I do see is the abuse and discrimination that goes on right here though…maybe you can explain why that is since that is mainly what I feel from you towards me.  See, nothing has changed, in church or out of church.  The church that I go to now has never shown me abuse, discrimination or abomination towards me or anyone else.  They do stand up against obvious evil but are not abusive in so doing.

kathi

it is not important ,it just got in my mind,

I do not do anything against you only towards what you show me to believe in and so teach,this i will stand for truth of scriptures,

i will not spare my sword even against me,for that i love king David.

you are happy camper with your church ,what i have to do with it,nothing.

but if you show that it is ok to worship the son of God equally,no .no.no

wen you try to have the creed from the catholic church approved in some way ,i do not share that view,

you know why they are so many saints in the catholic church,it is to please everyone,and it is also to show a illusion of righteousness,in front of all her crimes.

you know most of all gangsters bosses give much money to the catholic church,are the gangsters now good people,because if you would see what good for a moment in time they do,you may thing they are good people,but in reallity they are not.

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
2Pe 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

so i do not fight to destroy but to help you to live

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
If you think that I stumble, then you would have to assume that I think you stumble and teach something not in Bible, like Jesus was created. And I have charged against that teaching to help you. I don't think either of us are actually helping each other though so I have backed off discussing that with some on here. I desire now to discuss with those who agree on the worship of Jesus as the Son, not as the Father but as the Son and see Him as begotten from eternal essence and not created of different essence. May we all grow in truth and discard the old garment of false notions.

Peace to you

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,15:37)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,23:04) Kathi!  Do you believe that the trinity is wrong?  I do.  Do most Churches now believe in the trinity?  I think yes….Go ahead if you want to do this, but leave me out of it….There is no unity here…Irene. Irene, The term 'trinity' means different things to different people.  Trinity can simply mean that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all recognized as relative to God.  In that way, I would agree with the term 'trinity.'  Now others, the majority I suppose, define it to say that the Holy Spirit is a person and I do not go past defining the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of the Father.  So, in that way I do not agree with that particular trinity concept. I wish that you would develop a heart for unity and hold onto and build that.  Read through this thread and this time look for the agreement with the creed.  See how many agree with it.  The only clear problem is with the word 'catholic' and when understood, it is not such a problem after all except for you.

Kathi! Now you even want to make the trinity alright? Is that what you are saying? The meaning of the trinity is three in one and nothing else….and I for one will never agree to any thing that will jeopardize my way of living and worship of our God. Since the trinity is not of God and of a man by the name of Quintus Septimus Tertullian, it is a doctrine of men

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

This is why, I don't…..Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2010,23:12)

Pierre, If you think that I stumble, then you would have to assume that I think you stumble and teach something not in Bible, like Jesus was created.  And I have charged against that teaching to help you.  I don't think either of us are actually helping each other though so I have backed off discussing that with some on here.  I desire now to discuss with those who agree on the worship of Jesus as the Son, not as the Father but as the Son and see Him as begotten from eternal essence and not created of different essence.  May we all grow in truth and discard the old garment of false notions. Peace to you

Kathi

has you see your are in discussion on that subject with WJ, and i do not interfere in any way ,he is the right figure to be with in that argument.

it is still not true in scriptures

Pierre

[Author]

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