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There are 5 things that need identifying but people seem to differ on what and who. e.g., Some say the Pope is the Antichrist and some say he is the false prophet.
1) Beast
2) Antichrist
3) False prophet
4) Image of the Beast
5) BabylonHow about taking the list above and giving the answer next to each in the list (you don't have to answer all of them). We can then discuss why and what we chose.
e.g.,
1) Beast = EU
2) Antichrist = Pope
3) False prophet = Yet to come
4) Image of the Beast = Created intelligence AI
5) Babylon = RCCBeast = First World countries
Antichrist = Atheist
False Prophet = So called Christian Churches
Image of the Beast = Created Intelligence [the imagination]
Babylon = American common market1) Beast————–Ruler/government
2) Antichrist———-the Pope
3) False prophet——the pope
4) Image of the Beast-the pope
5) Babylon————the Catholic church, and all false religion.beast / deciever/adversary
anit christ / unclean spirit/no truth
false prophets / amoung us now
image / anything that is placed before Yah.
babylon / a world ran by man's desireTake the “image of the beast” for instance.
Every body has an opinion who the “image” is, does any one know who the beast was?
If you don't know the beast, how can you know the image?
After all, you do know what an image is, don't you?Beast = NATO
Antichrist = All the peoples who do not believe in our Lord
False prophet = All the churches who bow down to NATO
Image of the beast = advertising
Babylon = Europe/N. AmericaQuote (Cindy @ May 07 2009,21:34) Take the “image of the beast” for instance.
Every body has an opinion who the “image” is, does any one know who the beast was?
If you don't know the beast, how can you know the image?
After all, you do know what an image is, don't you?
live by faith not by sightmuch love
reneQuote (Cindy @ May 06 2009,17:13) 1) Beast————–Ruler/government
2) Antichrist———-the Pope
3) False prophet——the pope
4) Image of the Beast-the pope
5) Babylon————the Catholic church, and all false religion.
Hi Georg.Revelation 13:11-17
11Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. 12He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. 14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.So another beast (often called the false prophet) actually ordered the people to set up the image and he then gave life to that image.
So according to what you have said in your post, the pope got the people to setup the pope so that the pope then gave life to the pope.
Sorry I am not understanding what you are saying here.
t8
“Then I saw “”another”” beast, coming out of the earth”.
That is in reference to Rev. 13:1 being the first beast. Who is this beast?
Daniel saw four beast rise up, this beast is made up of all four of those beasts. We know that beast stands for kingdom/empire, one world government, Dan. 7:17.
The forth beast was supposed to be the worst of all, the Roman beast/empire; that is who this beast in Rev. 13:1 is, the Roman empire, showing that it was as bad as the other tree put together.
The reason these kings were given beastly names was, that's how they ruled, beastly, savagely, unmercifully.
The beast coming out of the earth was no different, that is why he is categorized as a beast too.
Rising up out of the sea means, rising up from all the other nation, rising up out of the earth means, coming up from among all the people.
This beast did not start out as a beast, it was a religious group/organization that grew and became what we know today as the “ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH”.
It was their leader, the Pope, that tried to appear as the lamb (Christ), the reason he is also called “the impostor, and the false prophet).
He spoke as the dragon, meaning, his doctrines were from the devil, he is the Antichrist.
Once the emperor was out of the way, 565 AD, he began to rule, exercise all the authority of the first beast, Rome.
He did not have the people set him up as the ruler, through deceit and threats he forced his way to the top, any one that dared to oppose him was killed. (like a dictator)
He is referred to as the image of the first beast, because he structured his organization after the Roman government.
The Pope was the emperor.
The Cardinals were the senators.
The Bishops were the governors.
And the Priests and Monks were the mayors.Do you fallow me so far?
Georg
Yes I follow what you are saying.
But how does the other beast who replaced the original one set up an image which is himself and give life to it?
According to your thinking, wouldn't the false church itself be more like the image?I mean as Jesus is the image of God and not God, then why is the image of the beast (pope as you say) also the pope? Wouldn't that be like saying that Jesus is the image of God and God as well?
t8
The Roman government was the first beast; the reason the bible calls the “other beast” the image of the beast is, because the Pope imitated the Roman government in the way he ruled. The pope ruled only over what used to be the western leg of Rome, but eventually influenced the whole world, with the exception of the Muslim nations.
The pope and his church is the “other beast”, he is the “image” of the Roman/beast, he is the impostor that looked like a “lamb”, he made himself, set up himself, as the “other” beast, gave life to it meaning, gave power to it so that all had to obey him or die.
The catholic church is the mother of all Christian churches, beginning with the great Reformation in 1517 AD, led by the German Monk Martin Luther.Georg
OK, so the Pope is the image of the first beast Rome according to what you are saying.
Revelation 13:11-17
11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
(Georg interpretation = The Pope looked like a lamb but spoke like a dragon.)12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
(Georg interpretation = The Pope made all inhabitants worship the Roman Empire.)13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
(Georg interpretation = The Pope did miraculous signs in full view of men.)14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth.
(Georg interpretation = By reason of these false signs, the pope decieved the inhabitants of the earth.)He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
(Georg interpretation = The Pope ordered the inhabitants of the earth to set up a church.)15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
(Georg interpretation = The Pope gave life/breath to this church so that the Pope could kill all who refused to worship the him.)16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
(Georg interpretation = The Pope forced everyone to have a mark placed on their right hand or forehead.)17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
(Georg interpretation = So that without the mark, no commerce was possible. This mark was the name of Rome or the number of Rome.)So lets compile this interpetation into a text:
The Pope looked like a lamb but spoke like a dragon.
The Pope made all inhabitants worship the Roman Empire.
The Pope did miraculous signs in full view of men.
By reason of these false signs, the pope decieved the inhabitants of the earth.
The Pope ordered the inhabitants of the earth to set up a church.
The Pope gave life/breath to this church so that the Pope could kill all who refused to worship the him.
The Pope forced everyone to have a mark placed on their right hand or forehead.
So that without the mark, no commerce was possible. This mark was the name of the Roman Empire or the number of the Roman Empire.Have I correctly made the interpretation based on your belief?
t8
Rev. 13:11, No, the pope tried to “appear” as Christ, he claimed to be the “Vicar” of Christ, but his doctrines (what he spoke) were false.
v. 12, as long as there was a Roman emperor around, he made sure all, including him, paid there respect to the Emperor.
The deadly wound Rome received was in 476 AD when the barbarian tribe, the Heruli, deposed the western emperor Romulus Augustulus, and made Rome and Italy their kingdom.
The eastern emperor Justinian healed the deadly wound in 553 AD by defeating the Heruli.
I have not yet said anything about v. 13, but I will.
The miracles the pope performed were no magic tricks.
When something is accomplished that no one thought was possible, people will say, its a miracle; like the invasion of Normandy, like a child buried in ruble for days after an earthquake, etc.
For a religious leader to take over, and rule, half of what used to be the Roman empire, that was a miracle.
Made fire come down from heaven? What is heaven? Jesus said, heaven is God's throne, or better put, God's throne is in heaven. What is a throne? It is a symbol of power and authority. We have thrones on earth occupied by kings, they have power to rule their nation. But we also have places that have power over the minds of people, churches; heavens on earth.Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
Notice, “to the heavens, from above”.
So the fire the pope made come down on the people from his heaven (the Vatican) was no real fire.1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
It was the popes severe persecution of true Christians (on the earth); in the sight of men? public torture and execution.
I will stop hear with my explanation, because, as I read on I notice a similarity between you and Nick; I get to dizzy watching you spin.
When you get serious, let me know.Georg
Georg, I am just making a fair and deep look at your interpretation of Revelation 13:11-17 based on what it is saying to see if that is what you are saying. I have no other motive but to see if what you are saying is written. I am not judging anything but by the very scripture itself and it is written to give an answer for what you believe and I am giving you that opportunity not just for me, but for all who read here.
You and I both know that what we teach must line up with that which is written. That is all that is happening here. There is no motive to discredit anyone or to put anyone on a pedestal. It is just plain and simple looking at what you are saying to see if it is written.
You wrote the following:
1) Beast————–Ruler/government
2) Antichrist———-the Pope
3) False prophet——the pope
4) Image of the Beast-the pope
5) Babylon————the Catholic church, and all false religion.Then I tried to fit that into Revelation 13:11-17 and using your key I got the following:
The Pope looked like a lamb but spoke like a dragon.
The Pope made all inhabitants worship the Roman Empire.
The Pope did miraculous signs in full view of men.
By reason of these false signs, the pope decieved the inhabitants of the earth.
The Pope ordered the inhabitants of the earth to set up a church.
The Pope gave life/breath to this church so that the Pope could kill all who refused to worship the him.
The Pope forced everyone to have a mark placed on their right hand or forehead.
So that without the mark, no commerce was possible. This mark was the name of the Roman Empire or the number of the Roman Empire.As you can see, all I did was retell the same story with your version of these identities. I don't think that I was unfair or misrepresented anything, but just told it as it is. So rather than be left spinning, you could correct what part of that text needs changing in order to fit with your teaching. This will help me understand your teaching and it might even show you the need for a change in something to make it come out the way it should.
I see this as being beneficial for both of and something that an honest person would eagerly like to have challenged or analysed using scripture in order to test it's validity.
Quote (t8 @ May 12 2009,22:25) The Pope looked like a lamb but spoke like a dragon.
The Pope made all inhabitants worship the Roman Empire.
The Pope did miraculous signs in full view of men.
By reason of these false signs, the pope decieved the inhabitants of the earth.
The Pope ordered the inhabitants of the earth to set up a church.
The Pope gave life/breath to this church so that the Pope could kill all who refused to worship the him.
The Pope forced everyone to have a mark placed on their right hand or forehead.
So that without the mark, no commerce was possible. This mark was the name of the Roman Empire or the number of the Roman Empire.
Or how about aligning history with these points, so I can see you reasoning or see it how you understand it. Feel free to also point out any mistake in the sentences I formed. e.g., the last sentence may be the other beast and not the original one. I assumed it was the original one.t8
I have my doubts about your sincerity, because you twisted my words.
I did not say, “the pope looked like a lamb”, I said, “he tried to appear as the lamb” (Christ).(((“””The Pope ordered the inhabitants of the earth to set up a church.
The Pope gave life/breath to this church so that the Pope could kill all who refused to worship the him.
The Pope forced everyone to have a mark placed on their right hand or forehead.
So that without the mark, no commerce was possible. This mark was the name of the Roman Empire or the number of the Roman Empire.”””)))Where did I say any of these, your remarks? they are not my interpretations, they are yours.
When you reply like that, I have a hard time believing you're serious.
I believe my explanation are clear enough, if you have any questions, be specific in what you're referring too, and I would be more than willing to clarify what I said.Since I already explained who and what the “image” is, I will go on from there.
v. 15, it was through the fear and superstition of the people, that the pope was able to succeed in making himself the new ruler; that is what is meant by “give life to the image”, “and speak” simply means he commanded, and any one that opposed the image, “would not worship the image”, would be killed.
v. 16 his mark was his doctrines; notice that it says “a mark”. If you did not except his doctrines (right hand), or believe them (forehead), you would be killed.
v. 17 during the dark and middle ages it was forbidden to own or read the bible under penalty of death. The only once that were allowed to “by” or “sell” a bible were the once who had the “mark”. This “mark” is referring to the mark of the beast/Rome, which is the “cross”. All the clergy were waring the cross/mark, and still do, or the name of the beast, “Roman” Catholic. Or the number of his (the popes) “name”. His name is what the pope calls himself, “VICARIVUS FILII DEI”, vicar of the son of God.
v. 18 tells us that the number of the beast (the image) is the number of “a man”, the pope.
When you take the Latin letters of his name that have a numerical value, they add up to 666.Georg
Thanks Georg, I will read what you have said. But I just noticed your first comment about twisting words. I tried to put your symbols into the text and then gave you an opportunity to correct anything that I may have got wrong. How is that twisting the words?
The words I used was the scripture substituted with your symbols.
i.e.,”He had two horns like a lamb“.So I will change the first sentence to say:
“The Pope had two horns like a lamb but spoke like a dragon.”
Are you happy with that?
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