Human sacrifice?

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May 20, 2010 at 11:31 am#191343

Participant

The author of Hebrews in the *King James Version* (KJV) of the Christian
Bible once again had to alter Hebrew scripture in an attempt to show that a
Psalm of David refers to Jesus.

*The subject Psalm in the KJV*:

*Psalm 40*
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou
opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is *written of me*
,
8 I *delight* to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law *is within* my heart.
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not
refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.

Hebrews 10:4 (KJV) says *”for it is not possible that the blood of bulls and
of goats should take away sins.”*

Then it refers to a misquoted Psalm 40:6-9 when saying:

*”Wherefore, when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering
thou would not, but a body have you prepared me: in burnt offerings and
sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo I come (in the
volume of the book it is written of me) to do your will, O God”* (Hebrews
10:5-7).

*The Living Bible *interprets these same verses as:

*”That is why Christ said, as he came into the world, 'O God, the blood of
bulls and goats cannot satisfy you, so have made ready this body of mine for
me to lay as a sacrifice upon your altar. You were not satisfied with the
animal sacrifices, slain and burnt before you as offerings for
sin”*(Hebrews 10:5-7).

The *New International Version (**NIV) Study Bible* says:

*”Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: Sacrifice and
offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt
offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased*” (Hebrews 10:5-6).

It explains when Christ came into the world he said the words of this psalm
of David (40:6-8).

*The Christian Jerusalem Bible* says;

*”You, who wanted no sacrifice or oblation, opened my ear, you asked no
holocaust or sacrifice for sin; then I said, Here I am! I am coming! In the
scroll of the book am I not commanded to obey your will? My God, I have
always loved your Law from the depths of by being”. *

All four Christian bibles are supposedly quoting Psalm 40:6-8.

Three of the four bibles tied Hebrews 10:5 and Psalm 40 very neatly into
Christian theology, but, according to the original source, the Hebrew Bible,
what did David actually say? The Tanakh reads:

“Neither feast-offerings nor meal-offering did You desire, but you opened my
ears for me; burnt-offering and sin-offering You did not request. Then I
said, Behold, I have come with the Scroll of the Book that is written for
me. To fulfill Your will, my God, do I desire, and Your Torah is in my
innards.”

The Sages explain David was saying to God; “I show my gratitude not with
offerings, but I present myself holding the Torah, resolved to obey
everything in it.”

Do you think the writers of the New Testament had to change the Hebrew Bible
once again in order to make Jesus fit?

Why did Christianity change G-d's original Judaism, in a brazen attempt to
validate its new religion

Source: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg25162.html

May 20, 2010 at 10:57 pm#191383

942767

Participant

Hi Adam:

This is what God has said:

Quote

1 John 5: 9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The New Testament writers did not have to change anything to make Jesus fit into the OT scriptures. These scriptures testify of the coming Messiah who without a doubt was and is Jesus, and I am hoping and praying that God will reveal this to you before it is too late.

Did David obey the scriptures without sinning?

The sacrifice of Jesus was on the following order:

Quote

Phil 2:8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 21, 2010 at 4:00 am#191407

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 21 2010,09:57)

Hi Adam:

This is what God has said:

Quote

1 John 5: 9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Did David obey the scriptures without sinning?

The sacrifice of Jesus was on the following order:

Quote

Phil 2:8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi brother Marty,
I appreciate your post above. Infact I am also honestly searching the scriptures to find what you say is correct. But I find our New Testament is fully of forgeries and contradictions. They differ drastically from the religion of O.T. I can agree that Jesus was a prophetlike figure but not as Messiah or savior of this world. Unless Christianity is biased we can not make Jesus as Jewish Messiah. We should be honest in our interpretations. New Testament writers like Matthew, Hebrews etc. applied Hebrew scriptures left and right to prove their Christology as I had shown above an example.

Hope you will also see truth in my words.

Peace and love
Adam

May 21, 2010 at 5:08 am#191413

kerwin

Participant

Adam,

You get too tied up in debates over words when the ideas those words express are more important. I freely admit that both translators and scribes whom are not moved by the Spirit of God can and do make errors. In the case of Psalms 40:6 there are discrepancies over the exact words used even in the earliest manuscripts we have. I do not claim to know which are accurate and which are not.

I do know that there is no evidence to support the idea that the Hebrew language translation of scripture you refer to as the Tanakh is the most reliable manuscript. In fact going by age the Septuagint would be older by at least two centuries and therefore more likely to be the more accurate as fewer inconsistencies could have crept in over a shorter period of time.

As I pointed out it does not really care since that verse is not required to prove anything and either version goes well with the interpretation of Hebrews that I put forward as being more likely to be accurate.

I, unlike Marty, am not going to argue that Psalms 40 is a Messianic passage though I do believe it is a scripture useful for making the point about Jesus the writer of Hebrew chose it to make. Verse 40 is why I have my doubts being as Jesus did not sin. The writer of Hebrews argued that Jesus did not sin and for him to claim that was specific to Jesus seems doubtful.’

May 21, 2010 at 5:37 am#191417

gollamudi

Participant

That is an honest confession brother Kerwin, that's why I always like your posts here in this forum. Infact I also have doubts about Jesus' sinlessness. Paul says in Rom 8:3 “For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man”. If Jesus never tasted any sin then there is no meaning of saying Jesus had experience all our weaknesses and informities. I feel Paul was talking like a docetist to say God sent His son in the likeness of sinful man without really becoming one. Even what brother Marty quoted above from Phil 2:6-9 is also docetism claiming Jesus appeared as human like us. This is where I get frustrated of Paul's Christology. He also talks about Jesus some how involved in creation of this universe along with God the Father as he claimed in Col 1:16 and 1 Cori 8:6.

Don't you think this is deviation from the religion of Hebrew scriptures?
This is the reason why there are many sects in Christianity and that's why we are here to waste our time to claim and couter claim our personal biased views.

Hope you will understand my agony.
Peace to you
Adam

May 21, 2010 at 6:31 am#191421

kerwin

Participant

Adam,

Many people seem to believe that Peter’s warning to Christians about how hard to understand Paul’s writing are does not apply to them. Peter clearly stated that ignorance as well as corruption can get in the way of truly understanding them. You have plenty of proof this is so in the many heresies that have sprung up. Do not believe for a minute that it is only Paul’s writing as even among the Jews who deny that Jesus is the Anointed there are many sects, though they refer to them as traditions. I believe we can conclude from this evidence that it is within the sinful nature of mankind to form groups or associations that segregate them from others.

Actually Paul speaks of Jesus in regards to a new creation and not the old. If you realize that we are brought to God through Jesus then you should realize that Paul was not speaking of the old creation. I state this because if we already in Jesus then why would we need to be immersed in his name once more. We are even warned not to be immersed in him twice.

I understand Paul speaks in ways that can confuse those who are ignorant and it is obvious that if one thinks he was speaking of the old creation that one is ignorant of the correct understanding of the message of salvation for the reasons I gave above. Either that or one knows better and are lying for their own reasons and so are corrupt.

Jesus was sent in the likeness of sinful man because sinful man is in the likeness of sinful man and Jesus was sinful in that he was tempted to sin even as we are even though he did not sin. The reason he did not sin is because his faith was always mature while ours is often immature at best. We have but to grow to be like him in true righteousness and holiness but even when fully mature we will be sinful by nature.

The Jews also believe that the Anointed One does not sin.

May 21, 2010 at 9:44 am#191442

gollamudi

Participant

You know brother Kerwin the warning of Peter you quoted itself is from a forged letter written by allegedly using Peter's name. That was the letter written many years after Peter's death and even it was the last book written in the N.T as per many Biblical scholars. So what genuity you can find in such book to quote Paul.

I can't accept your logic of new creation that was attached to Jesus by Paul. Infact there is so much ambiguity in the words of Col 1:12-17. Whether this letter is the genuine letter of Paul we don't know. Many scholars disagree on this. Here the writer talks about 'all creation' Jesus is firstborn of 'all creation'. So what do you mean by that? Some Unitarians say that it talks about new creation but how can you interpret it that way when it talks about 'all creation'?

I don't think that Paul's words are so difficult understand when he clearly talks about a religion entirely different from the Original religion (monotheism) of the Hebrew scriptures. Infact his words are favourable to Trinitarianism or binitarianism than monotheism. Therefore so much havoc it caused in the early Christianity to dispute over the nature of Jesus.

May 22, 2010 at 1:24 am#191500

942767

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ May 21 2010,16:37)

Hope you will understand my agony.
Peace to you
Adam

Hi Adam:

Jesus did not create. God created every thing that he created with Jesus in mind.

And if Jesus sinned, there is no resurrection from the dead because the wages of sin is death, and all of humanity who have been born of the sperm of man have sinned and fallen and fallen short of the glory of God.

Jesus was not born of the sperm of man, but was born of the Spirit of God, and is God's gift of love to humanity.

I have a personal testimony that Jesus did not sin because I have been raised from the dead (spiritual separation from God) by the Spirit of God who dwells within me.

But the scripture also states:

Quote

1 Co. 15:12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 22, 2010 at 5:04 am#191540

kerwin

Participant

Adam,

I am not going to debate with you whether the second letter of Peter is a forgery or not because it is irrelevant to the issue we are discussing. I will point out that what I quoted from it is true and that is some scripture is hard to understand and ignorant and corrupt people misinterpret it to their own ill fortune.

I have heard the logical arguments that attempt to use Colossians 1 as evidence to support the preexistence of Jesus. In logic that passage is useless for that purpose because language use allows it to be interpreted in ways that do not support the preexistence of Jesus. I merely presented you with one of those ways.

You question is how can I say it speaks of the new creation when it talks about “all creation”. I believe Paul answers that question in Romans 8:19-21.

Romans 8:19-21(NIV) reads:

Quote

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

This passage goes on to say Christians are the first fruits of the Spirit. Jesus was the very first one to have the Spirit.

I have to disagree about Paul’s or any other of the New Testament writers words being more favorable to any doctrine that teaches Jesus is God because that is an illogical tenet which cause scriptures to conflict with one another. One prime example is that God cannot be tempted to sin while Jesus was. In other words either the scripture that states God can be tempted is false or the scripture that states Jesus was tempted to sin is false in order for Jesus to be God.

May 24, 2010 at 11:41 am#191747

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 22 2010,12:24)

Quote (gollamudi @ May 21 2010,16:37)

Hope you will understand my agony.
Peace to you
Adam

Hi Adam:

Jesus did not create. God created every thing that he created with Jesus in mind.

Jesus was not born of the sperm of man, but was born of the Spirit of God, and is God's gift of love to humanity.

I have a personal testimony that Jesus did not sin because I have been raised from the dead (spiritual separation from God) by the Spirit of God who dwells within me.

But the scripture also states:

Quote

1 Co. 15:12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Hi brother Marty,
I appreciate your post above. I also believe that Jesus never sinned but how does it fit into saying that Jesus experienced sin or infirmities like us without tasting them once.

Your logic of saying human sperm causes for transmission of sin can not be supproted by any scriptures unless you also believe that sex is an act of sin.

Jews never intended that their Messiah would be other than an ordinary human like you and me. Read for your self about the Messianic prophesies they never intended for a person who never experienced sin. Please see the the following scripture which says that Messiah is liable to sin and he can be corrected by God.
2 Sam 7:12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

Christianity invented all these logic and made Jesus fit into their logic stating that he fulfilled all of them.

Don't you think Christianity deviated from its true origins that is Judaism?

May 24, 2010 at 11:54 am#191748

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2010,16:04)

Adam,

You question is how can I say it speaks of the new creation when it talks about “all creation”. I believe Paul answers that question in Romans 8:19-21.

Romans 8:19-21(NIV) reads:

Quote

This passage goes on to say Christians are the first fruits of the Spirit. Jesus was the very first one to have the Spirit.

Hi brother Kerwin,
I also agree with you that many here quote Col 1:15 for Jesus' preexistence. But I can't agree with your arguments on Paul's view of new creation to be the “all creation” mentioned in Col 1:15. Many scholars claim that Colossians and Ephesians are not written directly by Paul himself but by his followers after his death. This you can find in their developed Christology of fitting Jesus into God's creation. They claim Jesus was preexisting with God when He(God) created this universe. I know unitarianism often argue on the lines you quoted above but that is not preoved so far to the extent of satisfaction all here in this forum.

Therefore I blame Paul or his followers for deviating from the Monotheist religion of Hebrew scriptures by involving Jesus a man into God's lone creation. That was unnessary on part of earliest Christians to invent a new path of religion than to follow what Jesus preached and followed.

Peace to you
Adam

May 24, 2010 at 3:28 pm#191759

Arnold

Participant

To whom it may concern

When you ignore scripture, you ignore truth, what you end up with is lies.

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Who is the true and faithful witness? Jesus.
How much clearer can the Bible be? Jesus is the “BEGINNING” of God's creation; the first born.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

What does born mean? it means brought forth, brought into existence; of “every creature”, is that really so hard to understand?

The reason Jesus was tempted was, he is not God; God can not be tempted, but everyone else can, and has been, even the angels were, that's why we have Satan and his devils.

God created all things “THROUGH” Jesus.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Again, what is so difficult to understand that? only if you don't WANT to believe the truth, will you not believe.
It seems to me that you put more trust into “scholars” then the Bible; who are scholars, who says they have all the answers? do they not rely on “their” own understanding? are we to believe them because they call them selves “scholars? I don't.

Georg

May 25, 2010 at 12:06 am#191826

942767

Participant

Hi Adam:

I did not say that human sperm causes the transmission of sin. I said that all men born of the sperm of man have sinned. Sin is defined as the transgression of the law. Jesus was tempted in every way humanly possible but he did not sin. Could he have sinned? Yes, most definitely, but he did not.

2 Sam 7:12 the immediate reference is to Solomon. David wanted to build a house for God but God would not let him. Here are the scriptures in context:

Quote

2 Sam 7:5Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

6Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.

7In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

8Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

9And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

10Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

11And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

But in verse 11 God tells David that He will make a house for him (that is for David).

Quote

7:11And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

There were many kings from the David line that followed prior to Jesus being born into this world. The scripture states that “if his son does wrong he will punish him”, but that his mercy would not depart from him as it did in the case of Saul. Jesus did not sin, but actually, the scripture states the following:

Quote

Isaiah 53

1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Love in Christ,
Marty

May 25, 2010 at 4:33 am#192100

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (Arnold @ May 25 2010,02:28)

To whom it may concern

When you ignore scripture, you ignore truth, what you end up with is lies.

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Who is the true and faithful witness? Jesus.
How much clearer can the Bible be? Jesus is the “BEGINNING” of God's creation; the first born.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

What does born mean? it means brought forth, brought into existence; of “every creature”, is that really so hard to understand?

The reason Jesus was tempted was, he is not God; God can not be tempted, but everyone else can, and has been, even the angels were, that's why we have Satan and his devils.

God created all things “THROUGH” Jesus.

Georg

Hi brother Georg,
I appreciate your post on this thread. Infact I am now constrained to accept that our N.T talks about the alleged preexistence of Jesus prior to his birth on this earth. But the problem is that Christianity drastically deviated from its true origins that is Judaism and invented a new religion in the name Jesus which Jesus himself never believed or preached. The early Christians like Paul and others incorporated such Christology into N.T material. No orthodox Jew believes that their Messiah will be other than human being like you and me born to human parents. The preexistence or Virgin birth of Jesus makes him far from human origins.

This is where I started seeing the difference with true religion of Hebrew Bible. Hope you will also understand my agony in searching the truth.

Peace to you
Adam

May 25, 2010 at 4:36 am#192103

gollamudi

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2010,11:06)