- This topic is empty.
- Posts
YOU HAVE TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS.
Adam started religion?
more so…
How dose the bible say religion shall end?
From the prophet Jesus own mouth…?
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.
as written in another form by prophesier Paul… prophecy shall fail…cease ..when that which is perfect comes…waiting waiting!!!! until?…………………………………………………………………………
……………
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
… mean while then… I can prophecy…..smile…..men will have to for fill… carrying on with the tall tales… till a pretty scary female rises to make em all look like stupid cherubs gargling laws… for white teeth.
To KJ.
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2009,11:24) Are you open to the possibility that you are wrong?
Of course. I was obviously open when I first believed because before that I didn't believe. Since then however, God has done countless miracles in my life, given me visions, answered prayer, and provided in the most miraculous ways.It would take quite a big explanation to count my experience with God as not legitimate. I would have to become blind because I have seen.
To be honest at first I didn't want to become a believer but I figured that if God was real, it was the only real thing to do. So I opened my heart and mind to the possibility. What followed is miracle after miracle that all said that God loved me and was real.
So I made the sacrifice of believing in him (that is how I saw it at first). That meant that I gave up my past life and associated habits that I was quite fond of. I also gave up on the social group I hung out with. Believe me none of this was easy. But for my so-called pain, God truly did amazing things in my life. He spoke to me in a way that was not just imagination, but circumstance backed up everything he spoke to me about. He even spoke to me so clearly that had I not heeded his words right there on that spot, I would have been injured or died.
Even during the time I was wondering if God existed, he did things that were just incredible and beyond belief. Once I was convinced he existed, I was seeing with my own eyes, the other side. I saw spirits, prayers were answered, miracles witnessed with my own eyes. I was living the very things that we read about in the New Testament. I am not talking about meetings where people are supposedly healed etc, I am talking about going about my every day life with such occurrences. During this time, I was even tempted of the devil to give up my quest for a great worldly prize which to be honest was very hard to turn down as a young man. But I persevered.
KJ, my faith has been very real. So real that if I spoke even some of it to even believers, many wouldn't believe my words.
I have seen the other side. I have tasted of both the darkness, and the light. I have seen the river of life. I have received a heavenly communication that had no earthly words can describe or come close to in glory, words of pure vision, the language of God.
I even had a brother who was a believer like me. He turned away, even with such a great witness in his own life, and God spoke to him in dreams and showed him his fate if he continued down the path of darkness that he was traveling. He didn't repent and he died in the exact fashion he was told.
I admit that now I don't have as many experiences as I once had. I am not sure if it because I haven't fulfilled that which he has shown me or if it is because I am too busy with my family and paying off a mortgage. But in all this, I cannot deny the reality of God. I cannot deny the power of God. I cannot deny the Kingdom of God and the next eon.
I have spoken to doubters before, and they try and have a go at making me doubt like them. But I am afraid that it is impossible for me to doubt. I have tasted of the age to come and what sacrifice would be left if I fell away after receiving such a great light.
God didn't spare the angels that sinned because they had great light. Why would I be so foolish as to follow their footsteps?
So going back to your question KJ, I ask you, what great evidence do you have that will nullify all that I have seen and experienced with a faith in God that is real?
You ask am I open to being wrong? My answer to you is that I think I am open. How else did I come to the conclusions and rightly so that the Trinity Doctrine is false. How did I know that denominations were not the Church and why did God give me so much? Well I believe that part of the answer is that I was open to the truth more than tradition and the approval of men. I was willing to become lowly in the eyes of men when truly following God made me unpopular.
When we are open to the truth, it is then that God reveals truth. When we only want to tickle our own ears, then all we do is surround ourselves with like minded people to soothe each others consciences into thinking that we are alright.
So am I open to being wrong? Absolutely. I have a great deal more to travel and I am by no means at the destination. I have heaps more to learn and heaps more to experience. If I closed myself off now, how will I obtain such things?
But I say to you that it would be a shame for me to give up now. Just as it is a shame that you have given up.
So what is it KJ that you have that can explain my faith in God, away? Why should I leave behind all that God has done for me and be like you? I haven't heard anything you say even challenge me in the slightest. I haven't heard anything new from you that I already don't know. But if you wish, go right ahead and convince me that YHWH is not real. I don't think you have any chance at all, but I will listen and I am open.
Surprise me.
Quote (charity @ Jan. 26 2009,18:01) what on earth posses one to become a christian at twenty years old…is twenty years old an age you can be secure of your own wisdom and understanding…to enter a contract for the rest of life in return for eternal life?
How come you would pursue something that was once not been true, or real…but now is?
if something is true it will true from the start…this should be how we understand where the men are creators?….why would God wait twenty years to do his thing and reveal himself in your Life….why would he be happy to leave us in a state of danger…even to die eternally unless there truthfully was no real danger?. this is pored and pasted on our own very young souls….even twenty…..how many suddenly become Christians in their forty's….smile….or stop going to church…I had so much forced on me as a child I was terrified of Life.
why did they do that to me?: for the same reason they convince a twenty year old.
I have evidence of being very little….my initials are carved in the back of a pew seat… using a coin while waiting out the first part of sermon..and the passing offering plate to come.many have done something wrong in life and with that they have sin as an entry to bribe the soul….sin is the lock…emotions are the key…..we all have experienced the same way of early first communication…..before a child understand the volume of words they are stirred and controlled by a parents pouring all the emotions of fear.. Love.. hate….making all vulnerable…..this is the way religion has its hold or grip on anyone for or against it….by cashing in on the earliest life control skills…. we need some waking up…too…many are purchased for some period of life.
the Jesus experience is all based on emotional…which has been the “first” and past way of communication….we are well trained to react to parents and others emotional estate..smile…yet small children learn and even able in understanding words they are still rely on the emotional to control their moods….the subconscious… call it the left side of the brain!
-charity
What a strange post, charity. It appears to be written by a non-believer, although I am not sure what you even believe, so I am not calling you one.If what is true is true from the start of my life is that God didn't exist and for another it was that God did exist, then your logic falls down charity.
Why would God wait 20 years? God didn't wait 20 years. I waited 20 years. When a man reaches the end of himself, at that point he might reach out beyond himself to experience something outside of himself.
My faith is real, if I am surrounded by doubters then all I can say is you are free to doubt, just as I am free to believe.
Quote (Cindy @ Jan. 27 2009,12:42) kejonn The Bible has been proven by past prophecies that have happend and had been fortold by the Apostels. You can take the time table, Prophecy that you might want to look up, you can prove that the Bible is the word of God. There are several articles on prophecy here, so start proving.
Kejonn I wonder why you come back if you don't believe anymore?
Irene
That is true Cindy.Israel is a great witness. God made Israel a nation again. He took them back from the nations of the world and he preserved their language. He helped to make their nation a nation that produces crops and fruit trees, and he gave them strength beyond all their innumerable enemies that surround them. YHWH is still God today, just as he was in the OT times.
But men a free to doubt. Men are free to deny YHWH. But men are also free to believe. Each to their own.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 27 2009,02:57) …… So what is it KJ that you have that can explain my faith in God, away? Why should I leave behind all that GOd has done for me and be like you? I haven't heard anything you say even challenge me in the slightest. I haven't heard anything new from you that I already don't know. But if you wish, go right ahead and convince me that YHWH is not real. I don't think you have any chance at all, but I will listen and I am open.
Surprise me.
I have no wish or desire to “explain your faith away”. Your faith is your own. My goal as to religion and spirituality is to get people to come to an understanding that theirs may not be the “right” way, or at least the only way. Your post above (which I left out for brevity) shows what you believe, but I could just as easily find another religious adherent who believes differently. Yet they would be just as convinced of what they believe as you are.IOW, what makes what you believe right, and what another believes not? Why is your view that the Trinity is false the correct view? WJ is thoroughly convinced it is the right view, and he has just as much scripture as you (if not more) to back up his position.
It all comes down to what each adherent has convinced themselves is “true”. Each person has their own set of experiences that guide them to decisions, and they can even change (as is the case with me).
Have you ever stopped to consider that “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” was not meant to be a universal call to all of mankind? You just assume it is because the past 1900 years of developing Christianity has said so.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 27 2009,20:03) Quote (charity @ Jan. 26 2009,18:01) what on earth posses one to become a christian at twenty years old…is twenty years old an age you can be secure of your own wisdom and understanding…to enter a contract for the rest of life in return for eternal life?
How come you would pursue something that was once not been true, or real…but now is?
if something is true it will true from the start…this should be how we understand where the men are creators?….why would God wait twenty years to do his thing and reveal himself in your Life….why would he be happy to leave us in a state of danger…even to die eternally unless there truthfully was no real danger?. this is pored and pasted on our own very young souls….even twenty…..how many suddenly become Christians in their forty's….smile….or stop going to church…I had so much forced on me as a child I was terrified of Life.
why did they do that to me?: for the same reason they convince a twenty year old.
I have evidence of being very little….my initials are carved in the back of a pew seat… using a coin while waiting out the first part of sermon..and the passing offering plate to come.many have done something wrong in life and with that they have sin as an entry to bribe the soul….sin is the lock…emotions are the key…..we all have experienced the same way of early first communication…..before a child understand the volume of words they are stirred and controlled by a parents pouring all the emotions of fear.. Love.. hate….making all vulnerable…..this is the way religion has its hold or grip on anyone for or against it….by cashing in on the earliest life control skills…. we need some waking up…too…many are purchased for some period of life.
the Jesus experience is all based on emotional…which has been the “first” and past way of communication….we are well trained to react to parents and others emotional estate..smile…yet small children learn and even able in understanding words they are still rely on the emotional to control their moods….the subconscious… call it the left side of the brain!
-charity
What a strange post, charity. It appears to be written by a non-believer, although I am not sure what you even believe, so I am not calling you one.If what is true is true from the start of my life is that God didn't exist and for another it was that God did exist, then your logic falls down charity.
Why would God wait 20 years? God didn't wait 20 years. I waited 20 years. When a man reaches the end of himself, at that point he might reach out beyond himself to experience something outside of himself.
My faith is real, if I am surrounded by doubters then all I can say is you are free to doubt, just as I am free to believe.
t8….. 
I don't know why it matters so much to me what you think…smile….i… we cant be obedient to the message that we have never UNDERSTOOD/ heard……..as untill we kNEW what sin was….we lived without guilt……
I am not able to digest the marred Image of Jesus that has been passed down …I have FAITH/arrogance
Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2009,23:33) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 27 2009,02:57) …… So what is it KJ that you have that can explain my faith in God, away? Why should I leave behind all that GOd has done for me and be like you? I haven't heard anything you say even challenge me in the slightest. I haven't heard anything new from you that I already don't know. But if you wish, go right ahead and convince me that YHWH is not real. I don't think you have any chance at all, but I will listen and I am open.
Surprise me.
I have no wish or desire to “explain your faith away”. Your faith is your own. My goal as to religion and spirituality is to get people to come to an understanding that theirs may not be the “right” way, or at least the only way. Your post above (which I left out for brevity) shows what you believe, but I could just as easily find another religious adherent who believes differently. Yet they would be just as convinced of what they believe as you are.IOW, what makes what you believe right, and what another believes not? Why is your view that the Trinity is false the correct view? WJ is thoroughly convinced it is the right view, and he has just as much scripture as you (if not more) to back up his position.
It all comes down to what each adherent has convinced themselves is “true”. Each person has their own set of experiences that guide them to decisions, and they can even change (as is the case with me).
Have you ever stopped to consider that “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” was not meant to be a universal call to all of mankind? You just assume it is because the past 1900 years of developing Christianity has said so.
t8's worldview could be 100% right, but in his writing here I have never once seen any indication that he can consider it critically. If you read his long post above it is exactly what you would expect from someone whose thinking has taken over by a virus, a kind of HIV of the brain: one that has knocked out his immunity to ideas that are prima facie a fantasy.When he cannot answer the question 'What would you observe if this view of the world was wrong?” then it would be completely reasonable to say he is either deluded or bluffing.
Stuart
hey I'll entertain the bluff bluffing a bluff…smile
systematized systems have destroy the creative mind…being instructed is the adversary to evolving.
Quote (charity @ Jan. 30 2009,15:11) I don't know why it matters so much to me what you think…smile….
I will be honest and say that I do not lose sleep over this.Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2009,15:48) Quote (charity @ Jan. 30 2009,15:11) I don't know why it matters so much to me what you think…smile….
I will be honest and say that I do not lose sleep over this.
neither of us…. have to go to sleep to be dreamers.
the reality is…. we are buried “alive” in the many conflicting testimonies that cannot all be truth.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2009,23:33) Your post above (which I left out for brevity) shows what you believe, but I could just as easily find another religious adherent who believes differently. Yet they would be just as convinced of what they believe as you are.
Actually most people who are convinced of something are statistically speaking, probably wrong. I actually think that most who think they understand the truth share at least this one thing in common, that they actually believe what they believe because it was drummed into them from a cultural perspective or they thought something might be right and got caught up and convinced by reason of the time they spent concentrating on something. I would say that all religions are the same in this respect, Christianity included.Most Christians are actually Catholics and most Catholics were probably brought up Catholics. I realise it is never as simple as that, but I am generalizing for the sake of time and space.
Remember these words KJ, “Away from me I never knew you”, or “having a form of godliness and denying the power thereof”?
Well I think that most religions lack power and most religions adherents do not know God. What they know are doctrines, teachings, and cultural etiquette. Yet they are very passionate and would perhaps even die for their understanding because they have nothing better.
A man blows himself up in a crowded market place because he is convinced or almost convinced (and willing to take the risk) that if he does this, his reward will be billions of times greater than what he has now, and what he has now is not worth much. Another man whips himself thinking that this will earn him points because he is paying for his own sins and saving God some small change on the price that he paid for his redemption. Another man believes in God because it is a cheap form of life insurance. In case it is real, he has hope of an eternal payout. It is said that Constantine was baptised on his death bed in case there was in deed a judgement. Still, another man believes because it is the best explanation he has heard to date. Does any of this impress the God of the universe? For what motivates a man to believe in a religion or God is not always noble.
For me KJ, the Kingdom has come in power, and I know God because God converses with me, in other words there is communication, not a blind faith with no signs or wonders. I have substance of things not seen, and even evidence of things not seen. This is why I care not for Christianity or any other religion. This is why I have dedicated my life to serving God and it is why I believe that YHWH the same God of the Jews is the true God and I believe the mesage that Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven by which men can be saved. It was this very message that transformed my life and when signs and wonders started to flow.
Paul (formerly Saul) had a vision and a miracle that demonstrated to him that Yeshua was the son of YHWH and he stopped persecuting the followers of the way and became one himself.
My point KJ, is that one man has religion and doesn't know God and another man knows God and doesn't need to follow a religion because he has the real thing. Both can be very passionate, but it would be fair to say that the second kind would very rarely actually give up on God and that is why it takes time. Tares and wheat look the same in their early stages.
So anyone can be passionate for a cause KJ. Passion is never conclusive proof of the truth. I guess that Hitler was very passionate and right in his own eyes.
From observation and with no malice intended, I say the following: Perhaps you are a man who has/had religion and cashes that religion in when a better explanation comes along, or when holes in your religious argument appear, you abandon it. Whatever the case, I think it is safe to say (and you would probably agree) that you didn't know God at all, otherwise if you did, then your stance now is one of rebellion, not a search for truth.
So if all you had was an intellectual understanding that was challenged by another apparent stronger intellectual understanding, then you are a man grappling in the darkness for something to hold onto and in addition you are relying on your own understanding, and when that lets you down, you replace it with another form of your own understanding. You are a man who is being blown by the wind from one thing to another, but you are not a man who has seen the Kingdom of God and as such is willing to give his life up in order to obtain it.
This where you and I differ. We may agree intellectually on some or many things, and as much as I love sound logic and knowledge, in truth the power of God is greater and I cannot deny the power of God, but you have denied because your faith probably wasn't real to begin with, or was perhaps blind faith.
Jesus was a man who did miracles. These miracles were done to demonstrate that he was sent by God. There is real evidence to the truth and the true message. That is what I am saying. It is then up to men whether they will accept truth or follow after a fantasy that tickles their ears.
But for you, perhaps if you haven't had a real faith to begin with, then perhaps you cannot be judged for rejecting a great light for you may not have had that light to begin with. If this is the case, then you may need to divest yourself of all your own understanding and pray to the unknown God and ask him in earnest to show you who he is. To some degree that is what I did, except that I didn't probably have religious baggage to worry about. Of course if you are not willing to do what God wants when you find out the truth, then don't bother going down that path to start with, because we are judged on that which we know and you do not want to make your judgment harder. Search when you are sure that you will respond in the way you should, otherwise you will be searching for something that you are not interested in.
Quote (charity @ Feb. 02 2009,15:58) I will be honest and say that I do not lose sleep over this.[/quote]
neither of us…. have to go to sleep to be dreamers.
the reality is…. we are buried “alive” in the many conflicting testimonies that cannot all be truth.
That is right Charity. Not all things can be true. But there is truth and the one who finds it must be true.Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2009,23:33) IOW, what makes what you believe right, and what another believes not? Why is your view that the Trinity is false the correct view? WJ is thoroughly convinced it is the right view, and he has just as much scripture as you (if not more) to back up his position.
I can vouch for what I believe in and the associated fruit and evidence I have received as a result. As far as the doctrine of the Trinity goes or any other teaching and doctrine within that, I admit that I could be wrong. God could be a 3 headed substance as opposed to the Father of all spirits, but if that is the case, then it is not written in the biblical books and I am yet to read by what authority that teaches that YHWH is a 3 headed substance. Until then, I think it is safe to say that it is not taught in the 66 books compiled as the bible. You yourself have argued as much.Quote Have you ever stopped to consider that “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” was not meant to be a universal call to all of mankind? You just assume it is because the past 1900 years of developing Christianity has said so. Had it not dawned on you that the people who made Zeitgeist got it wrong about Jesus being born on Dec 31st like all the other pagan saviors? Constantine tried to turn Jesus into one of many pagan saviors and we have tradition that keeps this alive.
Jesus said “All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.”. If you think Jesus is a messiah for some, then you are not listening to him, but to someone else. But then, you may be the first to admit this.
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 01 2009,10:07) t8's worldview could be 100% right, but in his writing here I have never once seen any indication that he can consider it critically. If you read his long post above it is exactly what you would expect from someone whose thinking has taken over by a virus, a kind of HIV of the brain: one that has knocked out his immunity to ideas that are prima facie a fantasy. When he cannot answer the question 'What would you observe if this view of the world was wrong?” then it would be completely reasonable to say he is either deluded or bluffing.
Stuart
Hey Stu.Read your post to yourself and replace t8 with Stu. I think it is a valid message for you.
I use to believe as you do, and now I believe in God. I was critical of my world view back then and that lead to a change. Am I critical now, absolutely. I wish not to err. But your challenge that there is no God is nothing new to me. I use to bat for your team and you have nothing new to add to what I knew then.
So I have overcome the deception of evolution mixed with no God theory. I haven't been able to overcome belief in God because all the results have been positive. If they were negative, then I wouldn't bother would I? But God has proved himself time and time again. So all I can say is for you to read your own message. Don't be too critical of the message when you read it of you because you are the author.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2009,20:27) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 01 2009,10:07) t8's worldview could be 100% right, but in his writing here I have never once seen any indication that he can consider it critically. If you read his long post above it is exactly what you would expect from someone whose thinking has taken over by a virus, a kind of HIV of the brain: one that has knocked out his immunity to ideas that are prima facie a fantasy. When he cannot answer the question 'What would you observe if this view of the world was wrong?” then it would be completely reasonable to say he is either deluded or bluffing.
Stuart
Hey Stu.Read your post to yourself and replace t8 with Stu. I think it is a valid message for you.
I use to believe as you do, and now I believe in God. I was critical of my world view back then and that lead to a change. Am I critical now, absolutely. I wish not to err. But your challenge that there is no God is nothing new to me. I use to bat for your team and you have nothing new to add to what I knew then.
So I have overcome the deception of evolution mixed with no God theory. I haven't been able to overcome belief in God because all the results have been positive. If they were negative, then I wouldn't bother would I? But God has proved himself time and time again. So all I can say is for you to read your own message. Don't be too critical of the message when you read it of you because you are the author.
Well it is progress for you to admit that I could be 100% right. Evolution is a fact and natural selection is a mechanism for it that is disputed only by the religious, so your denial of it is of little consequence, except to the meme that has caused such denial in you. I note that you have not been able to support your assertion that evolution is a 'deception' in proper scientific terms and I wonder how you think your former views have been replaced by something better, when you never understood natural history in the first place.I suppose if we entertain a reversal of positions then it could be said that I consider you possessed by demons. Should I call you fool after the Psalmist? I never would!
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2009,16:46) Quote (charity @ Feb. 02 2009,15:58) I will be honest and say that I do not lose sleep over this.
neither of us…. have to go to sleep to be dreamers.
the reality is…. we are buried “alive” in the many conflicting testimonies that cannot all be truth.[/quote]
That is right Charity. Not all things can be true. But there is truth and the one who finds it must be true. AND a PLEASANT jog down memory lane…smileQuote (t8 @ Feb. 01 2009,23:45) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2009,23:33) Your post above (which I left out for brevity) shows what you believe, but I could just as easily find another religious adherent who believes differently. Yet they would be just as convinced of what they believe as you are.
Actually most people who are convinced of something are statistically speaking, probably wrong.So you admit you could be in this group?
Quote I actually think that most who think they understand the truth share at least this one thing in common, that they actually believe what they believe because it was drummed into them from a cultural perspective or they thought something might be right and got caught up and convinced by reason of the time they spent concentrating on something. I would say that all religions are the same in this respect, Christianity included. Agree.
Quote Most Christians are actually Catholics and most Catholics were probably brought up Catholics. I realise it is never as simple as that, but I am generalizing for the sake of time and space. Remember these words KJ, “Away from me I never knew you”, or “having a form of godliness and denying the power thereof”?
Well I think that most religions lack power and most religions adherents do not know God. What they know are doctrines, teachings, and cultural etiquette. Yet they are very passionate and would perhaps even die for their understanding because they have nothing better.
A man blows himself up in a crowded market place because he is convinced or almost convinced (and willing to take the risk) that if he does this, his reward will be billions of times greater than what he has now, and what he has now is not worth much. Another man whips himself thinking that this will earn him points because he is paying for his own sins and saving God some small change on the price that he paid for his redemption. Another man believes in God because it is a cheap form of life insurance. In case it is real, he has hope of an eternal payout. It is said that Constantine was baptised on his death bed in case there was in deed a judgement. Still, another man believes because it is the best explanation he has heard to date. Does any of this impress the God of the universe? For what motivates a man to believe in a religion or God is not always noble.
All of the above makes sense to me, and I agree. So here we go…
For me KJ, the Kingdom has come in power, and I know God because God converses with me, in other words there is communication, not a blind faith with no signs or wonders.[/quote]
What are these “signs and wonders”? How does he communicate with you? I have read the words of pagans who say their gos communicate with them as well. Am I to believe you, them, or all?
Quote I have substance of things not seen, and even evidence of things not seen. Sounds more like you're just repeating biblical concepts here.
Quote This is why I care not for Christianity or any other religion. This is why I have dedicated my life to serving God and it is why I believe that YHWH the same God of the Jews is the true God and I believe the mesage that Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven by which men can be saved. It was this very message that transformed my life and when signs and wonders started to flow. See the word bolded above. The same word is used by religious adherents all over the world, whether they be Christian, Mormon, Jew, Sikh, Shinto, theistic Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, Heathen, or any other. Many also state that their beliefs have transformed their lives. Am I then to believe you, them, or all?
Quote Paul (formerly Saul) had a vision and a miracle that demonstrated to him that Yeshua was the son of YHWH and he stopped persecuting the followers of the way and became one himself. According to the bible, it was not really a vision per se, but an encounter. Why is it that Jesus no longer works in this fashion? Why wasn't Paul simply given a copy of the gospels and changed by them, like we are supposed to today?
Quote My point KJ, is that one man has religion and doesn't know God and another man knows God and doesn't need to follow a religion because he has the real thing. Both can be very passionate, but it would be fair to say that the second kind would very rarely actually give up on God and that is why it takes time. Tares and wheat look the same in their early stages. But give up on which god? You sincerely believe in Yahweh, yet there are many who sincerely believe in Brahman.
Quote So anyone can be passionate for a cause KJ. Passion is never conclusive proof of the truth. I guess that Hitler was very passionate and right in his own eyes. And yet Christians, as well as the rest of the worlds religionists, have no proof beyond books and passion either.
Quote From observation and with no malice intended, I say the following: Perhaps you are a man who has/had religion and cashes that religion in when a better explanation comes along, or when holes in your religious argument appear, you abandon it. Whatever the case, I think it is safe to say (and you would probably agree) that you didn't know God at all, otherwise if you did, then your stance now is one of rebellion, not a search for truth. You claim to know some god, and also claim it is the god of the bible, yet your own view of god is likely not shared with another. Am I to believe that you know this god in ways others cannot?
Since WJ believes in this same god, who really knows him, you or WJ? They are obvioulsy different gods because WJ believes in a triune god while you do not.
But I believe you may have believed in the trinity at one time. Perhaps you are a man who has/had one form of the Christian religion and cashes that religion in when a better explanation comes along, or when holes in your religious argume
nt appear, you abandon it. Whatever the case, I think it is safe to say (and you would probably agree) that you didn't know this triune God at all, otherwise if you did, then your stance now is one of rebellion, not a search for truth.See how this works for you as well as me when you make bold claims that can't be backed up?
Quote So if all you had was an intellectual understanding that was challenged by another apparent stronger intellectual understanding, then you are a man grappling in the darkness for something to hold onto and in addition you are relying on your own understanding, and when that lets you down, you replace it with another form of your own understanding. Is my own intellectual understanding any better or worse than ancient middle eastern men who claimed to have experienced some god? What makes them special? Becuase they wrote a books that could very be as mythological as any othere set of legends?
Quote You are a man who is being blown by the wind from one thing to another, but you are not a man who has seen the Kingdom of God and as such is willing to give his life up in order to obtain it. Have you seen the kingdom of your god? What does it look like? Will your version of this kingdom match that of another who has also made a claim to have seen it? If not, who is right? Who should I believe has truly seen this elusive kingdom?
Quote This where you and I differ. We may agree intellectually on some or many things, and as much as I love sound logic and knowledge, in truth the power of God is greater and I cannot deny the power of God, but you have denied because your faith probably wasn't real to begin with, or was perhaps blind faith. Ah, the “you were never really a Christian” argument. Its the standard fallback device when no real explanation can be found. Christians use it because they are deathly afraid that free will is a fallacy when an omniscient god exists.
Quote Jesus was a man who did miracles. These miracles were done to demonstrate that he was sent by God. There is real evidence to the truth and the true message. That is what I am saying. It is then up to men whether they will accept truth or follow after a fantasy that tickles their ears. Heracles was a man who did miracles. These miracles were done to demonstrate that he was the son of Zeus. There is real evidence to the truth and the true message. That is what I'm saying. It is then up to men whether they will accept truth or follow after a fantasy that tickles their ears.
Can you prove what I have typed above to be false? If you cannot, you must be willing to accept it as you seemingly want me to accept what you wrote.
Quote But for you, perhaps if you haven't had a real faith to begin with, then perhaps you cannot be judged for rejecting a great light for you may not have had that light to begin with. If this is the case, then you may need to divest yourself of all your own understanding and pray to the unknown God and ask him in earnest to show you who he is. To some degree that is what I did, except that I didn't probably have religious baggage to worry about. Of course if you are not willing to do what God wants when you find out the truth, then don't bother going down that path to start with, because we are judged on that which we know and you do not want to make your judgment harder. Search when you are sure that you will respond in the way you should, otherwise you will be searching for something that you are not interested in.
What if I call out in prayer and another god answers? What if it is the Norse god, Odin? What if it is one of the many Celtic gods? Or a Native American god? How will I know with clarity which god is answering my call?Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2009,00:17) Quote (kejonn @ Jan. 27 2009,23:33) IOW, what makes what you believe right, and what another believes not? Why is your view that the Trinity is false the correct view? WJ is thoroughly convinced it is the right view, and he has just as much scripture as you (if not more) to back up his position.
I can vouch for what I believe in and the associated fruit and evidence I have received as a result.Is this supposed to mean something? It is empty as far as getting to the bottom of the word “truth”.
Quote As far as the doctrine of the Trinity goes or any other teaching and doctrine within that, I admit that I could be wrong. God could be a 3 headed substance as opposed to the Father of all spirits, but if that is the case, then it is not written in the biblical books and I am yet to read by what authority that teaches that YHWH is a 3 headed substance. Until then, I think it is safe to say that it is not taught in the 66 books compiled as the bible. You yourself have argued as much. Yes, but I believed it prior to that. So I believed one thing, discarded it upon further study, and argued my view. Then, with even further study, I came to the conclusion that there was very little that could be reliably classified as “truth” and discarded the idea of the bible being demonstrably “true”.
IOW, I went a few more steps than you did. You only employed reason and logic to reach one conclusion, and then suspended them when you were satisfied with the answers.
Quote Had it not dawned on you that the people who made Zeitgeist got it wrong about Jesus being born on Dec 31st like all the other pagan saviors? Constantine tried to turn Jesus into one of many pagan saviors and we have tradition that keeps this alive. Where did this come from? December 25th is indeed not a date that can be traced back to the birth of the Jesus figure, but is the date of the celebration of Winter Solstice. It was also believed to have been the birthdate of Mithras, if I recall correctly.
Quote Jesus said “All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.”. If you think Jesus is a messiah for some, then you are not listening to him, but to someone else. But then, you may be the first to admit this.
If we take the gospels as the words of Jesus, then he said he came for the lost sheep of Israel. He didn't come for you, a Gentile. It was Paul who took the death of Jesus and made it into a religion palatable for the pagans.t8 and Kevin – good debate!
I love debates where personal jabs are pretty much checked at the door – and solid arguments are presented. This is a mature debate that benefits others. THANK YOU!
Love to all,
Mandy
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
